Philharmonic Audio - 3-way open back ML-TQWTs designed by Dennis Murphy

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think Walter is shopping for Dream speakers. I think Walter should get in on this discussion.

 

[GranteedEV]

Not quite--They're actually roughly the same price as the 10's--maybe a little more. The difference is you have to buy them OEM directly from RAAL

That's so evil of them

Now I want them more than ever

 

[DenPureSound]

Angry Birds want to see Soundstage NRC & Stereophile review the Soundscape12.

Is that Red Mahogany on the front of the Choo -- Choo ??

Don't you agree Grant, looks the same, eh!!

 

[GranteedEV]

I for one, am excited to see ADTG compare

the dipole seas tweeters
the coaxially loaded KEF tweeter
the beryllium revel tweeter

vs

RAAL

 

[DenPureSound]

I for one, am excited to see ADTG compare

the dipole seas tweeters
the coaxially loaded KEF tweeter
the beryllium revel tweeter

vs

RAAL

Grant, just wondering since your from Calgary, AB there, you don't like PSB Synchrony Ones, Paradigm Signature S8's, and Energy?

How do those stack up to the SS10/12's and Phil's?

BTW -- do you know the GREAT Canadian speaker designer by the Name of TOM GATES, from Calgary also?

 

[GranteedEV]

Grant, just wondering since your from Calgary, AB there, you don't like PSB Synchrony Ones, Paradigm Signature S8's, and Energy?

Here are...my opinions on Canadian speakers:

-the only PSBs i ever heard, the dumbasses at the shop had mated to some subwoofers at +10db, maybe +15db. Needless to say I quickly said sayonara. The measurements look nice, but they are still pretty straightforward looking speakers... nothing that really catches my eye in terms of engineering.

-All the paradigms i've ever heard, were bleh

-I liked what little I heard of this one ~$1500 energy speaker I heard one time, but unfortunately the guys at Future Shop don't know how to set up a half decent proper audition. It did seem balanced and smooth though.

- I think totem speakers are for 10' x 10' x 8' bedrooms. I would never run a pair of those things in a real room. After auditioning them for a few minutes i decided they weren't really worth my time...

- The measurements on axioms are a disaster. huge red flag. no thanks

- I really want to hear some of Nathan Funk's speaker designs, especially his FW7.R properly set up with bass bins. One 'o these days I plan to drive the 10 hours to get over there, escape from anyone i'm with for a few hours, and go audition those things.

To me, if a company's cheap stuff isn't any good, I'm not going to make any effort to find their high end stuff... it just seems pointless. A company that can make a good inexpensive speaker is way more likely to catch my attention for high end stuff I can't afford, because it's so easy to be distracted by the ultradetail in pricy high end drivers and miss the point during an audition.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I for one, am excited to see ADTG compare

the dipole seas tweeters
the coaxially loaded KEF tweeter
the beryllium revel tweeter

vs

RAAL

Right now the Coaxial Uni-Q, Dipole SEAS, and Beryllium Revel tweeters are 4 ft from the front wall.

Do I have to pull the SEAS and RAAL 6ft away from the wall?

 

[Hocky]

Here are...my opinions on Canadian speakers:

-the only PSBs i ever heard, the dumbasses at the shop had mated to some subwoofers at +10db, maybe +15db. Needless to say I quickly said sayonara. The measurements look nice, but they are still pretty straightforward looking speakers... nothing that really catches my eye in terms of engineering.

-All the paradigms i've ever heard, were bleh

-I liked what little I heard of this one ~$1500 energy speaker I heard one time, but unfortunately the guys at Future Shop don't know how to set up a half decent proper audition. It did seem balanced and smooth though.

- I think totem speakers are for 10' x 10' x 8' bedrooms. I would never run a pair of those things in a real room. After auditioning them for a few minutes i decided they weren't really worth my time...

- The measurements on axioms are a disaster. huge red flag. no thanks

- I really want to hear some of Nathan Funk's speaker designs, especially his FW7.R properly set up with bass bins. One 'o these days I plan to drive the 10 hours to get over there, escape from anyone i'm with for a few hours, and go audition those things.

To me, if a company's cheap stuff isn't any good, I'm not going to make any effort to find their high end stuff... it just seems pointless. A company that can make a good inexpensive speaker is way more likely to catch my attention for high end stuff I can't afford, because it's so easy to be distracted by the ultradetail in pricy high end drivers and miss the point during an audition.

Don't forget that the "great American speaker company" is in your backyard now, too. Martin Logan. haha.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Is that Red Mahogany on the front of the Choo -- Choo ??

Don't you agree Grant, looks the same, eh!!

You're just mad because DM raised the price before you placed your order!

 

[Warpdrv]

Grant, just wondering since your from Calgary, AB there, you don't like PSB Synchrony Ones, Paradigm Signature S8's, and Energy?

How do those stack up to the SS10/12's and Phil's?

BTW -- do you know the GREAT Canadian speaker designer by the Name of TOM GATES, from Calgary also?

I have the S8's as well as the Salk SS M7's, which are in a league of their own for transparency, my absolute choice for 2 channel awesomeness - I'll take the SS any day of the week for that dedicated music listening sessions. My Paradigm Sig S8's are power hungry monsters - and will level them with output and control when it comes to high power output with clarity and accuracy at high SPL's... But they are very forward (in your face) in their presentation - again - brute force products.... I won't be replacing them with anything, although my Sigs reside in my "HT" arena - I'm waiting on Mark Seaton to get his floor standing Cat8's to market.... He was suggesting that I do a A/B comparo against the S8's... If I prefer the Seatons I'll make the switch. I'll certainly give the benefit of the doubt to the CAT8's for output for my gynormous room...

Sound Scape - gentle almost subdued, yet nothing missing in accuracy...

ADTG - I'd consider adding a nice high quality DAC into the mix for your 2 channel scenario - its opened my eyes to 2 channel / enormous soundstage to your digital music...

 

[Dennis Murphy]

You're just mad because DM raised the price before you placed your order!

Now anyone name Dennis, particularly someone who has written me so many times with excellent questions, can have these puppies for the original $2800 price.

 

[GranteedEV]

ADTG - I'd consider adding a nice high quality DAC into the mix for your 2 channel scenario - its opened my eyes to 2 channel / enormous soundstage to your digital music...

I find it extremely hard to believe that there's any improvement to be had from a Denon AVP-A1 processor... they're like the best measuring electronics available.

 

[Warpdrv]

Whatever.... measuring is one thing - implemented SQ is another. Id like to hear you take a journey of your own - experiment with some products that you have put into the mix before stating something you haven't yet tried to implement yourself... No offence - how many different DAC's have you tried yourself...?

Anthem D2v - own
AVP - A1 - what DACs are in that product that make it any better then the D2v ?
Same league IMO - I'm sorry to say that a higher end DAC can and will make a difference in SQ - perhaps you'd like to argue with TLS guy about the merits of better quality components, which a DAC will produce.... http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/835790-post16.html
Are they measurable ? I started a thread and no-one could produce any measurements to make me see any differences... Whats up with that..?


When you can honestly say you've experienced some of these different products in your chain and conclusively rule them out - if not then sorry I can't rely on your disbelief's...

I completely appreciate your level of intelligence and will never question your depth of knowledge on the subject of audio theory - it is far greater then mine - but for one to rule out and equivocally state something with no experience on a subject is - if you will - subject....

Please feel free to list the DAC's and digital sources that you have experimented with to rule these statements I have made...

 

[GranteedEV]

Please feel free to list the DAC's and digital sources that you have experimented with to rule these statements I have made...

Not with speakers, but i've compared the following DACs with headphones(measured to be extremely low distortion),(btw are more revealing than most speakers because you take the room out of the equation... but aren't much fun to listen to because there's no sense of space to headphones listening):


Nationite S.Flo
Marantz SR6003
Sony Walkman E37 (i think that was the model)
Audinst HUD-MX1
Creative Soundblaster Audigy 2

And not even properly level matched out of them, only the sony can be identified as unique, and that's only because it ran out of steam very quickly and needs an amp upstream to drive most headphones - otherwise still sounding fantastic - not "warm" or "muddy" or "bright" or huge" or "thin". I've tried my *** off trying to hear what the tools at head-fi are hearing as "amazing SQ" and "unbelivably great DAC" but all i hear is the exact same sound. so what am I doing wrong? Maybe i just need a headstage arrow, because it costs more so it definitely has to finally prove it to me. The marantz fwiw had the best amp stage, althoguh my own s.flo comes very close to it. I've spent my share of money on useless crap like dacs, just thank the lord not on high end audiophile DACs for living room hi fi. In fact i'm probably the only guy here that recommends the HUD MX1 to anyone. I think it's really good for what it is.

the only time i heard thin-ness from any of the above, was hooking the aformentioned sony into an aux-in in my car. Very thin sound. Guess what, go into the settings of the Head Unit and raise the aux gain to max and i got the same sound i get from my s.flo with aux gain at min.

I've also messed around with the M-Audio MobilePre's dac and it sounds the same too, although that wasn't part of the same comparision.

But you know what? You're richer than I so maybe your experiences are more meaningful. I'm not going to lie, if someone like TLS Guy or Dennis over here says there's a difference, then there's probably a difference. But in that thread he basically reiterated what i had said before - that your pioneer probably has wimpy preouts and that's all there was to it. He didn't even mention DACs.

whatever though, i'm not interested in getting into a dac argument, i never have and i never will. People are free to their experiences. I'm always willing to accept i'm a just lead ears if that's what golden ears want me to be - i'm happy with what I do and how i do it. I don't need your respect or anything like that.

Are they measurable ? I started a thread and no-one could produce any measurements to make me see any differences... Whats up with that..?

Of products we don't have and I wouldn't be inclined to buy personally because of the lack of measurements in the first place?

I would buy the denon. Not the anthem, not the pioneer. The parasound to me seems redundant so i don't have that either. So I don't have a clue how i'm expected to produce measurements of something i don't have.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Not with speakers, but i've compared the following DACs with headphones(measured to be extremely low distortion),(btw are more revealing than most speakers because you take the room out of the equation... but aren't much fun to listen to because there's no sense of space to headphones listening):


Nationite S.Flo
Marantz SR6003
Sony Walkman E37 (i think that was the model)
Audinst HUD-MX1
Creative Soundblaster Audigy 2

And not even properly level matched out of them, only the sony can be identified as unique, and that's only because it ran out of steam very quickly and needs an amp upstream to drive most headphones - otherwise still sounding fantastic - not "warm" or "muddy" or "bright" or huge" or "thin". I've tried my *** off trying to hear what the tools at head-fi are hearing as "amazing SQ" and "unbelivably great DAC" but all i hear is the exact same sound. so what am I doing wrong? Maybe i just need a headstage arrow, because it costs more so it definitely has to finally prove it to me. The marantz fwiw had the best amp stage, althoguh my own s.flo comes very close to it. I've spent my share of money on useless crap like dacs, just thank the lord not on high end audiophile DACs for living room hi fi. In fact i'm probably the only guy here that recommends the HUD MX1 to anyone. I think it's really good for what it is.

I've also messed around with the M-Audio MobilePre's dac and it sounds the same too, although that wasn't part of the same comparision.

But you know what? You're richer than I so maybe your experiences are more meaningful. I'm not going to lie, if someone like TLS Guy or Dennis over here says there's a difference, then there's probably a difference. But in that thread he basically reiterated what i had said before - that your pioneer probably has wimpy preouts and that's all there was to it. He didn't even mention DACs.

whatever though, i'm not interested in getting into a dac argument, i never have and i never will. People are free to their experiences. I'm always willing to accept i'm a just lead ears if that's what golden ears want me to be - i'm happy with what I do and how i do it.

For what it's worth, I've never heard any differences either. But I've only A-B'd maybe 3. One of those, however, was supposed to be about the best available, and a second was pretty expensive. My reference was a $200 AMC CD player from back in the day.

 

[GranteedEV]

One of those, however, was supposed to be about the best available

Benchmark?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Of course we are bound to disagree about certain things based on our experiences.

Even if I had 100 DAC, I would never be able to test & compare them like The Audio Critic. But based on my experience with pre-pros & AVRs, in Direct mode I cannot tell the difference. The only time I could tell the difference was when the components didn't have a direct mode. This was the case on my old Pioneer Elite pre-pro & on my HTPCs.

When I bitstream on my HTPC, the sound is great. Otherwise I don't think it has a direct mode.

I also had a cheap $200 Pioneer AVR that had a direct mode & it sounded great.

I'm not willing to buy any ext DAC though. I believe the Denon AVP-A1HDCI has the Burr-Brown PCM1791 DACs, which is probably one the best.

I'm going to drive the philharmonic 3s with the Denon AVR-5308CI, which has the same DACs. It can output 235 watts x 2ch 8ohm, 339 watts x 2ch 4ohm.

 

[DenPureSound]

Of course we are bound to disagree about certain things based on our experiences.

Even if I had 100 DAC, I would never be able to test & compare them like The Audio Critic. But based on my experience with pre-pros & AVRs, in Direct mode I cannot tell the difference. The only time I could tell the difference was when the components didn't have a direct mode. This was the case on my old Pioneer Elite pre-pro & on my HTPCs.

When I bitstream on my HTPC, the sound is great. Otherwise I don't think it has a direct mode.

I also had a cheap $200 Pioneer AVR that had a direct mode & it sounded great.

I'm not willing to buy any ext DAC though. I believe the Denon AVP-A1HDCI has the Burr-Brown PCM1791 DACs, which is probably one the best.

I'm going to drive the philharmonic 3s with the Denon AVR-5308CI, which has the same DACs. It can output 235 watts x 2ch 8ohm, 339 watts x 2ch 4ohm.

Do you think 339W per channel driving the Phil 3's with their respective 4-6Ω impedance will be enough power?

You don't want that excellent Denon 5308 to start clipping, and distorting the signal into those nice Phil 3's!! If that happens the ribbons will give you a sharp SHRILL...

At ref. of 75db SPL driving the two Phil's where do you think the Denon level will be at -80 or +18db? Multiple choice not allowed!

I would venture to guess you will be down around -22 db to push them at 75db SPL, and maybe even less.

Peak SPL Calculator

The 5308 Denon will drive the Phils with NO PROBLEMS for sure, and it should be pretty much equivalent to my XPA-5, no problem as DM drives his Phils with half that total power per channel.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Do you think 339W per channel driving the Phil 3's with their respective 4-6Ω impedance will be enough power?

You don't want that excellent Denon 5308 to start clipping, and distorting the signal into those nice Phil 3's!! If that happens the ribbons will give you a sharp SHRILL...

At ref. of 75db SPL driving the two Phil's where do you think the Denon level will be at -80 or +18db? Multiple choice not allowed!

I would venture to guess you will be down around -22 db to push them at 75db SPL, and maybe even less.

Peak SPL Calculator

The 5308 Denon will drive the Phils with NO PROBLEMS for sure, and it should be pretty much equivalent to my XPA-5, no problem as DM drives his Phils with half that total power per channel.

I do believe the Denon AVR-5308CI will drive those PH3 puppies just fine, as will the XPA-5.

I think the volume level will be the same, which is ~ -15db for music, which measures ~ 80 dbA.

 

[woodsart]

[The 5308 Denon will drive the Phils with NO PROBLEMS for sure, and it should be pretty much equivalent to my XPA-5, no problem as DM drives his Phils with half that total power per channel.]


Then I should be peachy....... the IIs...... the XPA-5......the Servo, of course!!!= the ecstatic joy of heavenly audio bliss!!!

But.....I may have to throw a tuby in there somewhere, hummmmm......where is the extra space......