Philharmonic Audio - 3-way open back ML-TQWTs designed by Dennis Murphy

Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
Dennis Murphy --

The SoundScape 10's have:

"To round out the design, dual horizontally-opposed passive radiators are used to provide bass tuning. This allows deep, impactful and musical bass while totally eliminating the “chuffing” inherent in a typical ported design".

Just curious why the Phil's use no passive radiators, and use the ML-TL terminus port design instead.

Did you get any "Chuffing" w/ the terminus port ML-TL design of the Phil's being at 0.8% of the Speed of Sound (~2.7 meters/sec.)?
Most likely to keep cost down.
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Idon't think Dennis is crazy @ all for his pricing. I would do the same.
.... actually, that just means you're both crazy :D

But IMO there is no need to charge $15K for the Soundscape or Orion.
the Orion, I agree. It should really only cost around 6-7k. It's got great drivers and great electronics, but the overall construction is something I could do.

But the soundscape I can see easily costing what it costs, or even double.

The bass section alone is like 2" thick, and huge/overbuilt. The woofer is a custom USA-Built 12" unit with passive radiators so I can't imagine it being inexpensive. A comparable subwoofer would probably be around the 2k range as it is IE Funkywaves, and remember there's two pairs of soundscapes.

The midrange ain't cheap... it's an accuton. Then there's the die-cast midrange and tweeter portions of the cabinet. I can't do that at home.

And that 70-20XR tweeter alone costs like $2000+/pr to my knowledge. It's a RAAL, but it's not the same as the not inexpensive one dennis is using. It can play almost an octave lower.

Then throw in the most likely pricy crossover, even with cost effective / non snake oil components. Then add the furniture grade finish. I think the SS12 probably costs around 5-8k before construction, and then you need a ~40-50% markup to make up for all the labour spent on construction itself.

Salk is a business, and I don't think their markups are bad at all... Same with Seaton / JTR / Pre-huge-price hike Linkwitz.

I don't like the prices on the Salk speakers @ all.
$2000 for SongTowers
$2700 for SongTowers + RAAL
$4000 for Archos
$4300 for V3
$4500 for HT2-TL (with RAAL)
$6000 for HT3

I think all of the above are fantastic prices for custom made speakers. Dennis's Philharmonic prices are truly crazy in the realm of "DIY kit" pricing. I mean any sane company would sell these for twice the price at least, even with made in china cabinets.

9k for Pharos is a bit pricy, but look at the cabinet construction.

$16k for Soundscapes is expensive? Sure. It's a statement product. I think 40k for a pair of KEF Blades is way worse, even if a dealer hooked you up with discount. I think 75k for a pair of TADs is unbelievable. 180k for some Focal Grande Utopias? Ridiculous.

We can argue about SQ all day. But IMO Salk, Linkwitz, Seaton, JTR, etc., will never be in the same boat as Revel, KEF, B&W, ect.

It doesn't matter if 100 guys on AH or AVS love the sound of Salk or Seaton.

They are different animals, & they need to realize it.

As dirty Harry would say, "A man's gotta know his limitations." :D

I can get the Salon2 brand new shipped to my front porch for $14K. So why would anyone spend $15K for the Orions or Soundscapes? That is crazy.
I don't get it. What do they need to realize exactly? Weren't the $22k pair Salons made in china with only one stock finish(maybe two)? If the Soundscapes or Orions sound more lifelike to someone than the Salons, while offering a custom finish (i think the regular salons finish is lame and would never buy it at those prices), how is that crazy?

Is this more or less a "Internet Direct companies have to be dirt cheap while brick and mortar companies can get away with whatever they want" assumption? There's companies like Ascend and EMP for "inexpensive" just like there's companies like Infinity and Pioneer. Companies like Salk, Seaton, Clearwave etc have a different niche that they're filling and I think they're doing it well.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Dennis Murphy -- the Phil 3's show their specs. at 25Hz – 20kHz (+/- 2 dB). But, when I look at the FR Plots they end at 200Hz. on the low end. So you must have some data showing the Phil 3's playing down to 25Hz. staying within the +/- 2dB limit.

What do things look like below 200Hz. all the way down to 25Hz.? :)
The short answer to this question is, using the methods & tools Dennis uses in his home to measure frequency response, room reflections have a very large effect below roughly 200 Hz. You'd probably be shocked to see how uneven such a frequency response curve looked. And it would be due to the additions and cancellations coming from floor/ceiling, front wall/back wall, and side/side wall reflections. It varies greatly with the room, the speaker placement, and the microphone placement.

Above 200 Hz, room reflections have a vanishingly small effect. The best way to deal with the low frequency room reflections is to measure speakers in a heavily damped anechoic room. They are expensive and only few are available.

I suspect Dennis may have more to say about this.

Dennis Murphy --The SoundScape 10's have:

"To round out the design, dual horizontally-opposed passive radiators are used to provide bass tuning. This allows deep, impactful and musical bass while totally eliminating the “chuffing” inherent in a typical ported design".

Just curious why the Phil's use no passive radiators, and use the ML-TL terminus port design instead.

Did you get any "Chuffing" w/ the terminus port ML-TL design of the Phil's being at 0.8% of the Speed of Sound (~2.7 meters/sec.)?
Several reasons:

  1. The woofers in the Phil 1/2 and the 3 are different than the SS 10/12 woofers. They have different parameters and different tuning requirements.

  2. Passive radiators are more expensive. ML-TL were tried in an early version of the SS bass units, and it was found, for a variety of reasons, the passive radiators worked better in a reasonably sized cabinet.

  3. An estimated air speed at the ML-TL port terminus of 0.8% the speed of sound is very good. The rough rule-of-thumb I remember is 5% or less is low enough to avoid audible chuffing. The Phils are less than 1%.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
*when you time gate measurements
Correct.

Above 200 Hz, when you limit the time frame that the measuring mike is open so that room reflections arrive after the mike is off, room reflections have a vanishingly small effect.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The finish on the soundscapes I saw yesterday is better than most any piece of fine furniture I've seen. That alone has to account for a significant chunk of the price. Never heard a speaker system that is so dynamic yet so smooth.
I'm sure it's just a difference in opinion. Personally I think the Soundscapes aesthetics turn me off. So I don't consider them fine furniture. :D

Fine furniture to me would be Salon2, B&W 800D, & KEF 207/2.

Most people including GranteedEV & DenPureSound & PENG know what I think about B&W.:D

But honestly & as crazy as it may seem, I would rather spend $15K on the 800D then the Soundscape12 for my next house. :D
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I'm sure it's just a difference in opinion. Personally I think the Soundscapes aesthetics turn me off. So I don't consider them fine furniture. :D
Salk are a CUSTOM speaker company :D

If you've got aesthetics ideas, just present them to Jim Salk. :D

"Hi Jim, I want a high caliber speaker that doesn't look like a soundscape. I like the way 800ds look but don't like the way they sound"

Next thing you know you'll have a CAD drawing of accutons in round spheres in a taller, less deep box :eek:
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Salk are a CUSTOM speaker company :D

If you've got aesthetics ideas, just present them to Jim Salk. :D

"Hi Jim, I want a high caliber speaker that doesn't look like a soundscape. I like the way 800ds look but don't like the way they sound"

Next thing you know you'll have a CAD drawing of accutons in round spheres in a taller, less deep box :eek:
Yes I want it to look exactly like the 800D, instead of like a chop-choo train, but sound exactly like the Salon2. :D
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Most likely to keep cost down.
That really wasn't the reason. Mostly. We first tried to make the SoundScapes work with a transmission line tuning. I still have the prototype cabinet, which is now generally referred to as the leaf blower. When I first fired it up with a 25 Hz test signal, it blew all of the poly fill out the front port and 20 feet across the room onto the sofa. That monster woofer just has too much excursion and dispacement to make a TL work. So Jeff Bagby came to the rescue and designed the dual 12" passive radiator system it now employs. There were two reasons I didn't use the same approach with the Phils. First, the Scan woofer doesn't create the same air pressure. It will work perfectly well in a properly engineered TL. Second, I didn't want to appropriate design elements of the SoundScape that I had not been responsible for. I had originally suggested the 2-piece, open back cabinet design, so I felt comfortable using that approach in my speakers. I would not have felt comfortable using the passive radiator tuning or the sculptured upper cabinet, even if I could have implemented the latter at reasonable cost.

As for not showing bass response below 200 Hz, I elected not to scare people unnecessarily by showing the bumpy ride that always occurs when you measure room response below 200 Hz. Instead, I provided a complete modeling of the bass response taken from Paul Kittinger's transmission line modeling. I think that's more informative than the mess that is Praxis plot below 200 Hz. Some people splice a near-field response of the woofer and "port", but this involves some guess work and really isn't more useful than Paul's simulations. If anyone is in Bethesda MD and wants to check up on the accuracy of those simulatioins, drop by my Wehawken Rd studios and I'll punch out a 25 Hz test tone for you.
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
I'll tell you one thing - I am not a fan of the SS10/12 looks either but I have the same sound of them in my bookshelves with likely better SQ from my LMS in the bass dept....

ACDTG, You can say your getting more from from all those speakers you named but I don't think you'll know how sweet / transparent the SS's sound until you have a listen to them... and i'll bet the Phils will give you everything the SS's have aside from the looks, which is obvious that was not what he was shooting for... The RAAL ribbon is the cats meow...

The B&W 802 / 800's sound like cr@p in comparison...

IMO the Seatons are really nice, but I would rather use them for HT then in a 2 channel system... they truly are powerhouses - brute force devices...
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I'll tell you one thing - I am not a fan of the SS10/12 looks either but I have the same sound of them in my bookshelves with likely better SQ from my LMS in the bass dept....

ACDTG, You can say your getting more from from all those speakers you named but I don't think you'll know how sweet / transparent the SS's sound until you have a listen to them... and i'll bet the Phils will give you everything the SS's have aside from the looks, which is obvious that was not what he was shooting for... The RAAL ribbon is the cats meow...

The B&W 802 / 800's sound like cr@p in comparison...

IMO the Seatons are really nice, but I would rather use them for HT then in a 2 channel system... they truly are powerhouses - brute force devices...
I can agree. But I also think once we get to the point of greatness, it's pure subjective personal opinion as to which sounds better or sweeter or more transparent. :D

I also think the PH3s will give me everything the Soundscape will.:D

Have you also auditioned the 800D?
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
That was exactly my point - DM is the designer here so you can bet they will be darn close to the tonal quality of the SS's Maybe better who knows - so good for you for choosing the better financial scenario - Congrats - I look forward to your impressions... :)

I have heard both the B&W's mentioned - and yes I didn't care for them...
I'll take my SS's any day of the week - or the Phils...

What finish / color did you go with buddy.... ?

ETA ?
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
Dennis - can you expand a bit on your reason for choosing the BG mid... over something such as the Accuton Ceramic... Whic is an awesome sounding mid IMO...

I've always wondered how the SQ / performance was on the BG

If this was covered already - I may have missed it... thanks
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Dennis - can you expand a bit on your reason for choosing the BG mid... over something such as the Accuton Ceramic... Whic is an awesome sounding mid IMO...
I'd presume, that part of it was because an 8" woofer can play up higher than a 12" woofer (IE soundscape) without significant narrow directivity or loss of piston behaviour. So less is asked of the mid in this design down low, but more is asked up high (i think the neo8 has wider dispersion than the accuton?????)

And I can imagine the fact that it costs a quarter as much had somethin to do with it :eek:

Earlier on this page dennis did say:

And to me the Neo8 sounds as good as the Accuton. But as I said, we'll have to wait and see how much agreement there is.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
That was exactly my point - DM is the designer here so you can bet they will be darn close to the tonal quality of the SS's Maybe better who knows - so good for you for choosing the better financial scenario - Congrats - I look forward to your impressions... :)

I have heard both the B&W's mentioned - and yes I didn't care for them...
I'll take my SS's any day of the week - or the Phils...

What finish / color did you go with buddy.... ?

ETA ?
I went red mahogany. :D

I'm sure GranteedEV is snoring right now.:D

I think ETA is 45 days from last Thursday.

You know got burned & stoned virtually when I first gave my impressions of those 800D/802D a few years ago. :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Soundscape was like, "Let's get the most expensive drivers out there."

Philharmonic was like, "Let's get the best drivers w/o breaking the bank.":D
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
.....

And that 70-20XR tweeter alone costs like $2000+/pr to my knowledge. It's a RAAL, but it's not the same as the not inexpensive one dennis is using. It can play almost an octave lower.

Not quite--They're actually roughly the same price as the 10's--maybe a little more. The difference is you have to buy them OEM directly from RAAL, and they are voiced to work without the diffuser pads. The extra octave is nice if the midrange can operate very high, but otherwise the extra width just diminishes horizontal dispersion.
 

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