off topic posts from the funky waves thread

[ntrain42]

That right there should give an edge over the competition in SQ, as well as output....

Hows my work of art coming along there Mr Nathan... ?

Over the HSU sub without question, the HSU uses a really cheap driver, but its at best on par with the drivers used by Rythmik and SVS, and I'd say in some ways its a step below em.

 

[its phillip]

Over the HSU sub without question, the HSU uses a really cheap driver, but its at best on par with the drivers used by Rythmik and SVS, and I'd say in some ways its a step below em.

Usually when people make statements like this they need to back them up with some sort of reasoning or evidence.

 

[cantonguy]

Over the HSU sub without question, the HSU uses a really cheap driver, but its at best on par with the drivers used by Rythmik and SVS, and I'd say in some ways its a step below em.

hmmm.... that goes against everything I have read other places. I know I've read the Rythmik drivers are some of the better ones around. I don't know anything about drivers so that could be false. But, you are the first person I have seen make that statement. You are also the only person I have ever seen constantly say that HSU drivers are crappy. Got beef?

 

[ntrain42]

hmmm.... that goes against everything I have read other places. I know I've read the Rythmik drivers are some of the better ones around. I don't know anything about drivers so that could be false. But, you are the first person I have seen make that statement. You are also the only person I have ever seen constantly say that HSU drivers are crappy. Got beef?

I see them for what they are. The only "decent" drivers used by HSU are incorperated in the ULS sub. I know alot of people here are all caught up on HSU, but there is better stuff out there for the money, and not just Rythmik and SVS. People just need to learn about the components some of these ID companies use. Learn about what makes a good sub driver(like the differences between a stamped steel basket and a non magnetic cast aluminum one, the differences between a Kapton and an aluminum former),how to interpret T/S parameters, what actually makes bass like raw linear displacement, box tuning, type etc. When you have a good understanding of these basics, you will take alot of the guess work out of why someone might not be impressed with a specific product. Myself personally, I have never been impressed with any HSU products other than the ULS-15 which is overall a good performing sealed sub driven within its limits.

 

[cantonguy]

I see them for what they are. The only "decent" drivers used by HSU are incorperated in the ULS sub. I know alot of people here are all caught up on HSU, but there is better stuff out there for the money, and not just Rythmik and SVS. People just need to learn about the components some of these ID companies use. Learn about what makes a good sub driver(like the differences between a stamped steel basket and a non magnetic cast aluminum one, the differences between a Kapton and an aluminum former),how to interpret T/S parameters, what actually makes bass like raw linear displacement, box tuning, type etc. When you have a good understanding of these basics, you will take alot of the guess work out of why someone might not be impressed with a specific product. Myself personally, I have never been impressed with any HSU products other than the ULS-15 which is overall a good performing sealed sub driven within its limits.

What companies in the $1000 and under category are you impressed with? What specific models?

 

[ntrain42]

What companies in the $1000 and under category are you impressed with? What specific models?

Well, before I answer this, are we talking about brand spanking new, or are we extending this to mint condition used products you can pick up on a respected place like Audiogon too? Are we limiting this to prefab'd subs or DIY as well?

 

[GranteedEV]

Well, before I answer this, are we talking about brand spanking new, or are we extending this to mint condition used products you can pick up on a respected place like Audiogon too? Are we limiting this to prefab'd subs or DIY as well?

prefabbed brand new subs that can not only match the HSU VTF-15 in sound quality at 90db but run with it toe to toe in distortion and compression\output at 115-120db whilst costing under 1000.

although i would appreciate it if you would open a new thread full of your limitless knowledge and get out of mine.

 

[cantonguy]

QUOTE=ntrain42;789566]Well, before I answer this, are we talking about brand spanking new, or are we extending this to mint condition used products you can pick up on a respected place like Audiogon too? Are we limiting this to prefab'd subs or DIY as well?

prefabbed brand new subs that can not only match the HSU in sound quality at 80db but run with it toe to toe in distortion and output at 115-120db.[/QUOTE]

what he said.

 

[ntrain42]

prefabbed brand new subs that can not only match the HSU in sound quality at 80db but run with it toe to toe in distortion and output at 115-120db.

what he said.[/QUOTE]Well then lets use the MSRP of the VTF and not the "introductory" price.

First off, Ill use HSU's own ULS015 as a much better alternative alternative. ED's A7S-450 and the A5-350(both which use very good drivers), both can be had in real veneer options now as well for less than $1k. Epik's sealed dual opposed 15" Empire also is a very good performing unit at the $1k range for HT/audio. You also have Rythmik's F25, F15HP, FV15 and FV15HP right around the $1k point. SVS's PB 12 Plus is on clearance now and is also close in the price. If budget is really tight(meaning every penny counts) and BANG for the buck was needed, Id go with the A7S-450 or Empire in that order, both a few hundred bucks under $1k. Both have alot of raw output and are very good for SQ with very good GD and transient response at lower volume levels. Add mint condition used products and I'll really expand on this list.

And this is based soley on a one sub box solution. If we can add in multiple subs totaling $1k then there are ALOT of much better options still.

 

[GranteedEV]

Can somebody say grasping at straws here... MSRP..? When is the last time an internet direct sub sold for "MSRP"?

How about some actual proof that the Epik and EDs are more linear, more capable, sound better, anything? Seriously your act is tired and I really don't care what you have to say because you've consistently failed to back up any statement with measurements or theory. Just the same basic "this driver is better". Sorry, but I fail to see how you're the go-to guy on driver construction just because you've heard a couple subwoofers.

Wait a sec, the MSRP for the ED is $2100. It doesn't count anyways

And I can (eventually) mint condition used VTF-15 for even less. How does buying used help your argument? Just drop it. You think your opinion should rule but fail to ever back it up with measurements or explantaion. Just a tired regurgitation. Your posts are akin to a 6moons review.

 

[cantonguy]

This is pretty weak dude. Can you explain what makes the HSU driver poor and the others good? You didn't list the F15 and that uses the same brand drivers as all the other Rythmik subs.
Can you tell me where Rythmik buys their drivers and what makes the company good or bad?
Can you tell me where ED buys their drivers and what makes the company good?

How many of these drivers have you held in your hands and examined?

 

[ntrain42]

Can somebody say grasping at straws here... MSRP..? When is the last time an internet direct sub sold for "MSRP"?

How about some actual proof that the Epik and EDs are more linear, more capable, sound better, anything? Seriously your act is tired and I really don't care what you have to say because you've consistently failed to back up any statement with measurements or theory. Just the same basic "this driver is better". Sorry, but I fail to see how you're the go-to guy on driver construction just because you've heard a couple subwoofers.

Wait a sec, the MSRP for the ED is $2100. It doesn't count anyways

And I can (eventually) mint condition used VTF-15 for even less. How does buying used help your argument? Just drop it. You think your opinion should rule but fail to ever back it up with measurements or explantaion. Just a tired regurgitation. Your posts are akin to a 6moons review.

Well, get me some T/S parameters on the HSU sub and Im sure the numbers will speak for themselves. What do YOU actually know about the HSU driver? Its pretty hard getting T/S #'s on HSU products. Regardless the A7s 450 is a very good subwoofer and is well regarded for SQ and HT. It has significantly more linear displacement, is coupled with a plate amp thats has 3 times the power of the VTF, uses a driver with a very low 26hz Fs point, has excellent transcient/GD #'s and it has a very smooth linear response and will get you to around 10-12hz. I believe Audioholics did a review on this sub a ways back as well with some rudimentary measurements. You can also get alot of good measurements and reviews on it from HTS and AVS. Its a killer bang for the buck sub, and you can now get it in finish options other than the wrinkle black pro adio finish as real wood veneer options are available. I've had this sub in the past with a pair of A5s 300's and they are very good performing subs for short money.

 

[ntrain42]

This is pretty weak dude. Can you explain what makes the HSU driver poor and the others good? You didn't list the F15 and that uses the same brand drivers as all the other Rythmik subs.
Can you tell me where Rythmik buys their drivers and what makes the company good or bad?
Can you tell me where ED buys their drivers and what makes the company good?

How many of these drivers have you held in your hands and examined?

OK, The HSU uses a foam surround, a paper driver cone with a higher than norm Fs point(garentee its well over 30hz), a small diameter kapton former,stamped steel frame,generic free floating tinsel leads,generic wafer style posts(that can corrode over time). I dont think it even uses a shorting ring. Can anyone find T/S parameters on HSU drivers btw? Most respectable mfg's give them out.

Compared to the Rythmik driver which uses a butyl rubber surround, a one piece spun aluminum cone(with a low Fs point of 15hz roughly) attached to an 3" diameter aluminum former, cast aluminum basket, interwoven tinsel leads and spring loaded gold plated binding posts(that wont corrode over time).

I mean do some research on the parts above and find out for yourself the pros and cons and why specific parts are used and their advantages. I havent even added in the fact the Rythmik driver uses an inverse direct feedback sensing coil to reduce THD. Lets open up our eyes and you tell me which company is using better quality components in their products just to start.

 

[GranteedEV]

Well, get me some T/S parameters on the HSU sub and Im sure the numbers will speak for themselves.

T/S Parameters have never told the entire story. Ever.

What do YOU actually know about the HSU driver?

It doesn't matter what I do or don't know about HSU driver. A subwoofer is a sum of its parts and the driver alone is only one aspect. Further, you're making completely wild claims about the HSU as if it's designed poorly.

Its pretty hard getting T/S #'s on HSU products.

Well duh. The drivers aren't sold to DIYers and car audio guys. Why would anyone give you T/S parameters of their drivers if they're not of benefit to anyone? HSU used to sell a car audio driver though and as far as I recall you could even get T/S parameters for it.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/asw-1203.html

Regardless the A7s 450 is a very good subwoofer and is well regarded for SQ and HT.

Really, a sealed sub with an fs of 26hz is well regarded for HT? really now?

Cuz Gee, I'm modeling this thing, and something must be wrong. I'm getting an F3 at 55hz and an F10 at about 27hz. IOW, I'd need to EQ the **** out of it just to get decent output at HT frequencies?

It has significantly more linear displacement,

A sealed 18 has more linear displacement than a ported 15? You sure about that?

is coupled with a plate amp thats has 3 times the power of the VTF,

Of course, at 20hz the sealed eD would have a sensitivity of 77db/w/m so it actually NEEDS that extra power to "EQ" up. Forgot to mention that one buddy.

uses a driver with a very low 26hz Fs point,

Wow. So now an Fs of 26hz for an 18" driver is low. Gee, and here I thought the Re XXX had a low Fs.

has excellent transcient/GD #'s

As does any decent driver in a well damped sealed enclsure with Q = 6

and it has a very smooth linear response and will get you to around 10-12hz.

It must use a driver I'm not familiar with then, a driver whose T/S parameters are not available (shame on you eD!). Because the driver I'm looking at is 27db down at 10hz in that box!

I believe Audioholics did a review on this sub a ways back as well with some rudimentary measurements.

None of which actually show the eD A7S-450 can do 121db @ 50hz or 109db @ 20hz (more in low tune mode mind you ) for any transient at low distortion. Unless you beg to differ?

Its a killer bang for the buck sub

Good for it. Now what makes it better than HSU?

OK, The HSU uses a foam surround,

Luckily the driver isn't sold to DIYers who will try to run it with an EP2500. That's the part you don't get. The HSU is made for a specific goal and for that goal it's perfectly fine. Modern foam surrounds are nothing like the 1970s foam surrounds.

a paper driver cone with a higher than norm Fs point(garentee its well over 30hz),

You garuntee it, so it has to be true

Of course with a higher than normal Fs you also get added sensitivity which means less need for extensive wattage. Forgot to mention that didn't you?

a small diameter kapton former, stamped steel frame,generic free floating tinsel leads,generic wafer style posts(that can corrode over time). I dont think it even uses a shorting ring.

I'm impressed. You sound like the type of person who would go into his amplifiers and replace caps. IE the sort who thinks the parts mean more than the end result.

Notice how all those things are important for high power handling subs? Which the HSU isn't? See, it was designed as a series of compromises to hit a certain price point. Sure there's subs out there that can not only take 5000w but also need 5000w to be appreciable. You just don't get it.

Can anyone find T/S parameters on HSU drivers btw? Most respectable mfg's give them out.

I guess 99% of finished subwoofer mfgs aren't very respectable because they don't sell to DIYers

Compared to the Rythmik driver which uses a butyl rubber surround, a one piece spun aluminum cone(with a low Fs point of 15hz roughly) attached to an 3" diameter aluminum former, cast aluminum basket, interwoven tinsel leads and spring loaded gold plated binding posts(that wont corrode over time).

You mean the rythmik sub that also costs a solid $320 more? Is that the one?

I havent even added in the fact the Rythmik driver uses an inverse direct feedback sensing coil to reduce THD. Lets open up our eyes and you tell me which company is using better quality components in their products just to start.

You would hope the company charging more would be using more effective components. ANd I could give half a **** about "quality" of components if both get the job done and neither deteriorates in the next 20 years.

So, yes, a 1200 dollar sub hopefully is overall better than a 900 dollar sub.

More importantly, show me measurably proof that those things (with the exception of the direct servo feedback) do anything to the ultimate sound quality in the equivalent behaving box.

 

[cantonguy]

OK, The HSU uses a foam surround, a paper driver cone with a higher than norm Fs point(garentee its well over 30hz), a small diameter kapton former,stamped steel frame,generic free floating tinsel leads,generic wafer style posts(that can corrode over time). I dont think it even uses a shorting ring. Can anyone find T/S parameters on HSU drivers btw? Most respectable mfg's give them out.

Compared to the Rythmik driver which uses a butyl rubber surround, a one piece spun aluminum cone(with a low Fs point of 15hz roughly) attached to an 3" diameter aluminum former, cast aluminum basket, interwoven tinsel leads and spring loaded gold plated binding posts(that wont corrode over time).

I mean do some research on the parts above and find out for yourself the pros and cons and why specific parts are used and their advantages. I havent even added in the fact the Rythmik driver uses an inverse direct feedback sensing coil to reduce THD. Lets open up our eyes and you tell me which company is using better quality components in their products just to start.

I know that Rythmik makes good drivers. I thought I read earlier that you didn't think they did.

 

[Warpdrv]

I know that Rythmik makes good drivers. I thought I read earlier that you didn't think they did.

Pay no attention to the argumentative troll....

 

[Warpdrv]

Also - I'd like to add = this is a Funky Waves thread, why has it been trashed with discussion of competing products here....

I would suggest if you don't want to discuss Funky Waves in this thread - you start an entirely different thread discussing the lesser made products.

 

[ntrain42]

T/S Parameters have never told the entire story. Ever.




It doesn't matter what I do or don't know about HSU driver. A subwoofer is a sum of its parts and the driver alone is only one aspect. Further, you're making completely wild claims about the HSU as if it's designed poorly.



Well duh. The drivers aren't sold to DIYers and car audio guys. Why would anyone give you T/S parameters of their drivers if they're not of benefit to anyone? HSU used to sell a car audio driver though and as far as I recall you could even get T/S parameters for it.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/asw-1203.html



Really, a sealed sub with an fs of 26hz is well regarded for HT? really now?

Cuz Gee, I'm modeling this thing, and something must be wrong. I'm getting an F3 at 55hz and an F10 at about 27hz. IOW, I'd need to EQ the **** out of it just to get decent output at HT frequencies?



A sealed 18 has more linear displacement than a ported 15? You sure about that?



Of course, at 20hz the sealed eD would have a sensitivity of 77db/w/m so it actually NEEDS that extra power to "EQ" up. Forgot to mention that one buddy.



Wow. So now an Fs of 26hz for an 18" driver is low. Gee, and here I thought the Re XXX had a low Fs.



As does any decent driver in a well damped sealed enclsure with Q = 6



It must use a driver I'm not familiar with then, a driver whose T/S parameters are not available (shame on you eD!). Because the driver I'm looking at is 27db down at 10hz in that box!



None of which actually show the eD A7S-450 can do 121db @ 50hz or 109db @ 20hz (more in low tune mode mind you ) for any transient at low distortion. Unless you beg to differ?



Good for it. Now what makes it better than HSU?



Luckily the driver isn't sold to DIYers who will try to run it with an EP2500. That's the part you don't get. The HSU is made for a specific goal and for that goal it's perfectly fine. Modern foam surrounds are nothing like the 1970s foam surrounds.



You garuntee it, so it has to be true

Of course with a higher than normal Fs you also get added sensitivity which means less need for extensive wattage. Forgot to mention that didn't you?



I'm impressed. You sound like the type of person who would go into his amplifiers and replace caps. IE the sort who thinks the parts mean more than the end result.

Notice how all those things are important for high power handling subs? Which the HSU isn't? See, it was designed as a series of compromises to hit a certain price point. Sure there's subs out there that can not only take 5000w but also need 5000w to be appreciable. You just don't get it.




I guess 99% of finished subwoofer mfgs aren't very respectable because they don't sell to DIYers



You mean the rythmik sub that also costs a solid $320 more? Is that the one?



You would hope the company charging more would be using more effective components. ANd I could give half a **** about "quality" of components if both get the job done and neither deteriorates in the next 20 years.

So, yes, a 1200 dollar sub hopefully is overall better than a 900 dollar sub.

More importantly, show me measurably proof that those things (with the exception of the direct servo feedback) do anything to the ultimate sound quality in the equivalent behaving box.

A. Your right, the T/S parameters don't tell the whole story, but they do give the big picture when you combine em with enclosure type and size.

B. Your right a subwoofer is the sum of its parts. And as Ive stated before, HSU puts alot of his work into the enclosure design itself, while going as cheap as possible on components used. The nicest thing on that VTF sub is the MDF enclosure itself. It doesnt cost much either to make a nice enclosure. Hell I bet the patented triangle ports(which is a slick integration actually)themselves cut down on mfg. cost. And no it doesnt necessarily make it a bad thing either. And no I never said HSU subs are designed poorly, and they arent all that bad as performers either, but they do use a really cheap driver and plate amp. I think for the money spent, the quality of the driver and plate amp could have been better without question.

C. I can pretty much get on request T/S parameters from any major mfg. if they havent posted them already. Many today though do post full T/S specs, or at least give partial specs............the reason why I mention it is transparancy in marketing of a product.

D. A 26hz Fs of the driver itself very good, not talking about the subwoofer as a whole. Check the Fs of some of the DIY drivers, they will be right around the same point.

E. EQ the s**t out of it? Free air response at ground plane is quite smooth with the A7S 450. In room response has excellent extension below 20hz. I know this from experience. This is a very capable HT sub.

F. The A7S 450 driver has about 435 linear cubes. A VTF 15 has under 200. Even counting the port effectively doubling it up, its under 400 linear cubes. So yeah, I am sure about that. I'd love to know where your getting your numbers from though.

G. 77db/20hz plus factor in room size, room gain, plus subtract overhang and GD effects as well. What you get is cleaner and more accurate, even for HT effects.

F. I dont replace caps in my amps but I have tweaked the bias a bit.

I'll edit and continue on later on my response.......

 

[cantonguy]

Also - I'd like to add = this is a Funky Waves thread, why has it been trashed with discussion of competing products here....

I would suggest if you don't want to discuss Funky Waves in this thread - you start an entirely different thread discussing the lesser made products.

You're right and I will take the blame for that. He made a claim that I thought sounded funny and questioned him. If I would have stayed quiet we could have avoided the hijacking. Again, I'm sorry. I will bow out at this time.

 

[Warpdrv]

I'll edit and continue on later on my response.......

Do us all a favor and take this to your own "Subwoofer theory" thread...

THIS IS A FUNKY WAVES THREAD - if you didn't notice the title.....