Spend less on speakers, more on acoustic treatment?

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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
i will say i have read some of floyd tooles book about loudspeakers and rooms and he certainly does not have the same idea you do, what he explains is not that your room should echo but that concert halls etc are designed to acoustically interact with speakers to distribute sound, he also talks about how instruments radiate sound in more then one direction based on different frequencies, and alot of other things, he never says anything about avoiding room treatment.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
You got the title backwards. It should read: Spend MORE on speakers, and LESS on Acoustical Treatment"

Turning bad loudspeaker sound into HEAT [through absorption] is passe, a waste of energy, and environmentally irresponsible in 2010. Instead buy a good speaker so you need less treatment. Carpet, furniture and bookshelves (make sure a copy of Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction in on it after you read it] will take care of the rest.
Would you consider the P362 good enough to replace my Energy V2.3i? Best buy had them going for $229 ($299 this week for some reason) each for quite some time. I have to ask because I have been saving up for an upgrade to perhaps the 803 or 804D since I have given up hope for the 802D. $12,000 is simply not approachable for me. Unless I am missing something you and AJ seem to be suggesting the <$500 a pair 362 could sound better than the 802D. I assume it was a qualified assessment but still made me wanting to try them out in my relatively small HT room.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
"Sounds exist in acoustical contexts. In live performances we perceive sources at
different locations, and at different distances, in rooms that can give us strong
impressions of envelopment. A complete reproduction should convey the essence
of these impressions. A moment’s thought reveals that because our binaural
perceptual mechanism is sensitive to sounds arriving from all angles, reproducing
a persuasive illusion of realistic direction and space must entail multiple
channels delivering sounds to the listener from many directions. The key questions
are how many and where?"

this is a quote from his book, yes, concert halls are acoustically designed to envelope you with sound and distribute sound, houses are not, houses are random in how they interact acoustically, therefore, what should be done is the space captured on the recording and reproduced with SPEAKERS, you would be an idiot to ruin the spatiality of the recording with a bad room. why do you think movie theaters are acoustically dead?
 
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
My room, like all rooms, effects what I hear when I am listening.
Right. Effects. Who said differently?? How does "effect" = "problem" in all rooms (your words)?

Repositioning my speakers changed how the room interacted with the sound (which is now eminating from a different location and with a different primary axis of emission) to cause the sound at my listening position to be different than it had been before. I considered the change for the placment I ended up with an improvement.
And again, who stated that position of speaker is not relevant? DIRECT QUOTE? The fact that all speakers must be positioned somewhere in a room, is a room problem?:confused:
If the speaker sounded bad under the couch...room problem??
And what other acoustic source types did you try other than your all the same speakers? What was the result, when in the same "problem" spot, you replaced your speakers, with various 1st order gradients? How does the polar response of all your speakers differ?

You believe that rooms have no effect on sound. I am well aware that is not true.
The strawman of your imagination obviously does. Here are just two of many - the non-imaginary person actually says this:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=538640&postcount=14
The loudspeaker/room interface accounts for about 95% of what you will hear. Without information about your room and the possible placement(s) of loudspeakers within the room, you will not receive a useful answer, just conjecture.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=727000&postcount=19
That must be an exception due to the speakers coupling to modes in your particular room. The opposite would be the norm in most rooms, i.e., the bass would increase with placement closer to walls and decrease further away...which might be perceived as a "tightening" of the bass response.

Actually, with a bipole (or dipole), the distance to the wall behind the speaker (usually referred to as the "Front" wall, because you the listener, are facing it) is crucial for all frequencies. We get spatial cues primarily above 1khz and if the reflections are not delayed sufficiently, they will blur the imaging, rather than be perceived as spaciousness. The minimum distance for the required delay time, is about 3' from the front wall (behind the speaker).
Which is why Bipoles (and dipoles) won't make much of a dent in the marketplace (as Paradigm, Energy, etc. found out).
Which one do you believe?? Your strawman, or I??:confused:

For one thing, I reduced early reflections from the bass driver by moving the speakers out from the wall. I also reduced a couch that was interacting with the sound by toe-ing in the units.
And again, these are "room" problems? The sofa?
What happened when you replaced your speakers in the exact same "problem spot" with a cardioid? Can you give specifics on the cardioids you have (used)??

Let's just take a portable audio source you like to five-guys and crank it. We can compare it to out-doors.
Huh??:confused:

You keep asserting that rooms don't affect sound. If that's the case, then you should find no SQ losss playing your gear in a room of bare tile walls. It should sound identical to an anechoic chamber.
You then spend the next half-dozen pages simply dismissing the entire idea and leveling passive-aggressive insinuations against any statement to the contrary.
If you believe I've mischaracterized your position, and that you don't believe rooms have no effect: you've had ample opportunity to clarify yourself.
Perhaps the strawman in your imagination would be the better one to ask this?

Having had several occasions to hear the exact same speakers in the exact same room before and after the carpet was replaced with tile: I know too well that "normal" rooms can have signifigant effect.

Tile bathrooms, something most everyone has been in, and which affect sound so much as to be unpleasent, are a good example. My earliest experiences were actually with things like overturned boats. Water really does nasty things to sound in small spaces.
Hopefully it didn't affect your mind to where you start imagining people saying things.....:).

Just let me know if you would like to hear acoustic sources completely outside your known sources, in your "problem" room. I'd, as stated previously, be happy to oblige.
Out of curiosity, if I were to place one of my sources in the exact position where your sources have problems...and the problems were no longer perceived, or measured (yes, I'd be measuring as well), what would the implication be for your "it's the room" theory?
Would you be ok with the results being posted here on the forum for all to see?
Lemme know.

cheers,

AJ
 
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Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
you know what happens when you hear reverberated sounds? it destroys inteligibility of individual notes. also, if room reflections are required to reproduce sound then how come so many outdoor concerts sound great? your not making sense. lets take a look at something here, the goal of hi-fi is to reproduce all frequencies exactly the same level they were recorded, ideally, the perfect speaker would have a response from 20hz-20khz +- 0dB, obviously, this is not yet acheived, but we can get within 3dB, which is pretty close, now what happens when sound is reflecting off of things is it is biased towards whatever frequencies those building materials resonate at, for instance, say your wall resonates at 500hz, your speaker is flat withing 3dB, your wall reflecting 500hz will increase the level of 500hz by as much as 10-20db two to four times louder then the rest of the frequencies, this is not the only frequencies that can be a problem, there could be hundreds that are a problem all at varying levels, this totally ruins the idea of a flat speaker. now then there is the issue of reverb time, this causes cancelation of notes because the wall reflections collide with the speakers original wave and cause destructive interference, this causes entire notes to be missing. also when the brain hears a sound that is delayed more then .6ms (might be wrong on that number) it cannot distinguish detail from it and the music "smears" into an echoy mess.
 
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Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
And he seems to think his wall is reinforced with Dr. Olive, if true that's better than re-bars.:D
I don't care if he has the President of the United States in his corner, that doesn't make him or the President correct.;)
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
you know what happens when you hear reverberated sounds? it destroys inteligibility of individual notes. also, if room reflections are required to reproduce sound then how come so many outdoor concerts sound great? your not making sense.
I really do not want to get in the middle of your conversation, but I have to point out that when the far off axis is a close representation of the on axis response, it is a negative SQ effect to remove the reflection. The addition of this reflected signal adds realism/resolution to timbre and also adds in more realistic spatial effect(s). Floyd discussed this effect of timbre enhancement originally, if I remember correctly, in the JAES peer-reviewed article on resonance detection, perceptual effects and measurement in the late 80's. Toole in recent articles, even points out the potential error of professional sound studios for their practice of usually removing all 1st reflections, due to the reduction of timbre resolution/realism and calls for a re-evaluation by these people to correct this typical error.

Outside concerts: personally I hate them if they are out in the open, and not in front of one of those special reflector set ups to provide the audience with some ambient depth. I prefer my classical concerts in a proper auditorium or performance hall. :)

-Chris
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Would you consider the P362 good enough to replace my Energy V2.3i?
Unless your V2.3i's can wipe the floor with 802N's the 362's will murder them. :D

But if you want real performance ... Behringer 2030p's. :eek: :p

Seriously, please get the 362's and tell me something. You have heard all kinds of stuff and I want to hear from you. Take 'em back if they don't please you but please, just get them.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Unless your V2.3i's can wipe the floor with 802N's the 362's will murder them. :D

But if you want real performance ... Behringer 2030p's. :eek: :p

Seriously, please get the 362's and tell me something. You have heard all kinds of stuff and I want to hear from you. Take 'em back if they don't please you but please, just get them.
Believe me, I was in BB a week ago when they were at C$229 each and the guy would take another $15 off. The problem was, still is, my wife would have murdered me before the 362s had their chance to murder the Veritas.

Anyway, be patient, I am still trying to find a way to make it happen. If BB put it on sale for say 199, I may just take a risk. That is, act first and ask later or something like that...
 
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AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
Jerry has some Primus 360's (only cosmetic differences according to Sean). I'd be happy to measure them in room (the untreated one...with problems ;)), if he isn't totally horrified by now to have me come over.:D maybe turn his world upside down (OMFG, it's the source, not the room....noooo:eek:)
Especially since all the results will be made public here on the forum for all to see....

Uh oh :p
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
... act first and ask later or something like that...
"It's better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission." -anonymous dead guy :rolleyes:

EDIT: Tell her you saved $7,500.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Jerry has some Primus 360's (only cosmetic differences according to Sean). I'd be happy to measure them in room (the untreated one...with problems ;)), if he isn't totally horrified by now to have me come over.:D maybe turn his world upside down (OMFG, it's the source, not the room....noooo:eek:)
Especially since all the results will be made public here on the forum for all to see....

Uh oh :p
*disregarding Sean Olive claims the Primus 360 is a magic speaker that has better performance than competently designed and manufactured speakers costing thousands dollars more*
 
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
*disregarding Sean Olive claims the Primus 360 is a magic speaker that has better performance than competently designed and manufactured speakers costing thousands dollars more*
eh?
:confused:
Sean claims magic...to be disregarded???

Getting an early start to the 4th???
 
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
Are those Linkwitz Orion+ speakers?
Those are wood floors (over concrete), painted cinderblock walls, glass block tiles, etc, etc., with rugs, sofa, chairs, blinds, curtains, media holders, etc, etc.
No need to waste energy as heat and have a dead, lifeless, lower clarity and spaciousness soundfield that won't fool anyone...except those computer owning basement dwellers who wouldn't recognize a live violin from a live kazoo (the same people I'll never see at classical or jazz shows).
Oh the acoustic sources?? They were based on the Orions, upon hearing them and analyzing the design, circa early '04.

cheers,

AJ
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I think this thread was derailed because "the room" was never defined. Some people were referring to "all rooms", some to large, open rooms and others to something from their own experiences. A large, open space will sound completely different from a small apartment and it's the small rooms with hard surfaces that make the sound act like a cue ball on a 3D pool table- more energy means longer decay times and problems. High SPL in a small, hard room only sounds loud, almost never good.

Why not reset the thread and describe a room that could be used as a model, so the opinions can be presented in a less emotional manner?

It's true that energy absorbed is energy that will never be used for the desired end result of hearing all of the sound produced by the speakers but in a room that's not optimal, it's a good tool when decor is determined by a wife or designer who just won't allow sound to determine the room's characteristics. This is a big reason Bose has been so successful. When carpeting, rugs, wall hangings and furniture can be placed in strategic locations, it's definitely a preferable method of achieving what we all want. In that case, treatments are less necessary and better speakers are a more important choice, IMO.

AJ- very nice home.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Unless I am missing something you and AJ seem to be suggesting the <$500 a pair 362 could sound better than the 802D. I assume it was a qualified assessment but still made me wanting to try them out in my relatively small HT room.
They could sound better, but it's unlikely they actually will.

I'd rather listen to 362s in my living room than 802s in a tile bathroom.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Right. Effects. Who said differently?? How does "effect" = "problem" in all rooms (your words)?
You said differently. I quoted you.

And again, who stated that position of speaker is not relevant? DIRECT QUOTE? The fact that all speakers must be positioned somewhere in a room, is a room problem?:confused:
Who said dolphins live in igloos?

Do you often ask questions about things that didn't happen?

If the speaker sounded bad under the couch...room problem??
Problem caused by room interaction, yes.

You could reposition the speaker, or you could reposition the couch.

So if I have a room that's a 8'x8'x8' cube entirely covered in tile: where should I put your speakers to experience the source material with no distortion from the room?

And what other acoustic source types did you try other than your all the same speakers? What was the result, when in the same "problem" spot, you replaced your speakers, with various 1st order gradients? How does the polar response of all your speakers differ?
I moved the speaker, the sound got better.

AJinFLA said:
No. [room treatments are] Vastly overrated. The room is rarely, if ever the problem.
Since you seem so fond of demanding data from others, please provide proof of your "95%"claim. I want to know it's not 90% or 100%.

So it seems


Out of curiosity, if I were to place one of my sources in the exact position where your sources have problems...and the problems were no longer perceived, or measured (yes, I'd be measuring as well), what would the implication be for your "it's the room" theory?
That when things are different they are not the same.

But if you believe your speakers can reproduce 100% accurate sound in all listening positions in my house, I can't wait to see them.

If they cannot, then why not?
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
They could sound better, but it's unlikely they actually will.
Conducting that DBT in a room under 2,000 ft sq at like 85-95db would be of incredible interest to me at this point. I believe research is Sean's line so he can't like compare them to compare them but Gene could. We are specifically talking about an 802N. Who has one? AH has the 362.

Gene, Gene, Gene ... The DBT Machine !!! Yaye!!! :D
 
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