DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

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PhenomeNhan

Enthusiast
Nahn...glad to see you around..Fat dude now ehh? :eek: I don't really believe it..Know about the heat down there..you can have some of our Humidity from up here to go with it if you want ;);) Maybe some of you smarter than the average bear engineers can put your heads together and find a cheap solution to finding all of the right parts to put the mfw-15 back like the original ones were..instead of having to spend a fortune to do a complete retrofit upgrade.Seems that would be a big ticket item if you could pull that off..
Mac
Hey, Mac, good to hear from ya. I think Hugh's mis-stating what I wrote (I'm -20 lbs), not +20 lbs :D I wouldn't listen to a man who purchases 'kids' and not 'kits' :D

It's been very humid down here, as well as hot. The humidity has been so intense sometimes that I need to take 2 showers a day :(

Perhaps if the MFW15 were delivered as spec'd/engineered, we wouldn't need to retrofit things to make them work right. I'm sure Kevin's upgrade kits are very good. I have the UFW15 upgrade version from him, and it's been doing so much better (well, anything's better than being inactive for a year) :D I now have a product that is performing like it should have been when first shipped.
 
M

Mac11700

Junior Audioholic
Hey, Mac, good to hear from ya. I think Hugh's mis-stating what I wrote (I'm -20 lbs), not +20 lbs :D I wouldn't listen to a man who purchases 'kids' and not 'kits' :D

It's been very humid down here, as well as hot. The humidity has been so intense sometimes that I need to take 2 showers a day :(

Perhaps if the MFW15 were delivered as spec'd/engineered, we wouldn't need to retrofit things to make them work right. I'm sure Kevin's upgrade kits are very good. I have the UFW15 upgrade version from him, and it's been doing so much better (well, anything's better than being inactive for a year) :D I now have a product that is performing like it should have been when first shipped.
I hear ya on the upgrade..but..since they used all those counterfeit parts in the second version,I'm wondering about just replacing everything they screwed up inside ? I'm not an electrician so I'm kind of at a loss what it would take ? ? ? I got 2 of the original ones that work fairly good,but the 2 replacement amps they sent out to take care of the auto on issue with the original ones both hum real bad.

So,that means you lost 20 lbs of muscle then right ? :p:p:p

Mac
 
D

dane

Audioholic Intern
Your recent posts here in the past few days reminds me of the repeated debates that went on the in the recent past with people like Graphicsguy, Mac, Quadman, etc. I've told Mac after he's come to the realization of the truth for himself that everyone has his own time line of when he will cross that bridge. Perhaps that's the point of frustration for many here is that they've seen so many cross that bridge, but yet others are still refusing to do so for what seems to be all the same reasons. And the crossing scenario goes through the same pattern each time. And I believe most of those situation really reflects a certain level of selfishness. That is, people try to justify what's going on by projecting their relationship with MLS/AV321 with how great things should be, but at the same time, dismissing the actual reality that is happening with hundreds/thousands(?) of cases. Their thinking is if MLS is treating me so well, then he can't be screwing those hundreds/thousands of customers. Until he proves "ME" wrong, I will continue to dismiss those 'reported problems' to be either a gross exaggeration or an outright lie--even if it comes from long-time, well-respected member of the forum.
+1 - with the last two sentences being I think spot-on.

Instead, I'll see if I can understand from your engineering viewpoint (being an "Engineer" myself).
[...]

1. Forum members have been dropping like flies (esp. long-time, well-respected members).
2. Many members expressing their disapproval - be it in a spirited manner or in a very tactful and respected manner - have had their posts deleted or are banned outright.
3. Repeated problems with
a. Amps
b. Veneers
c. Cabinet quality (fitment, varied dimensions, etc.)
d. Continual late delivery of products or products never coming to fruition
e. Continual missed dates with non-products
f. A book of excuses ranging from numerous illness, natural disasters, world events, alien invasions, etc.
g. Multiple shipping issues
h. Multiple monetary issues be it with product refunds, coupon refunds, or loan repayments
i. Selling off b/c/d-stock products
4. The list goes on...

As an engineer, just a few of those patterns alone would raise serious questions with me about wanting to pursue a company that failed in so many critical areas of engineering. Even if I didn't have any business acumen, my engineering instincts would tell me to steer clear away from AV321, since their engineering practices and customer support departments are well below sub-par of any company I would want to deal with. Perhaps I'm wrong about those engineering instinct, but I'm just sharing my experience.
1. Simple-- I didn't have the whole story from every side. And frankly, I don't have the time to go search down everyone to find out. A few I tried, and was denied. The forums are a hobby-- some days I have more time, some days (lately) I have much less. I liked many of the folks that I saw leave, but as most people would agree to, this is a side hobby and not to hurt anyone's feelings, I was not about to track down everyone that left to get their side of the story. Right or wrong, I had "better" things to do.

2. I didn't like the approach. But I have heard of many other forums (including AH) that have deleted posts and threads. Even back in the "good old days" of AV123 forums, the "regular scandal" was always regarding AVS Forums moderating so heavily against anything pro-AV123. Forum moderation in my mind became something of a norm. No matter what forum I was on, it was moderated towards a certain look-and-feel. Regardless, I had many friends on that forum. So naturally it was easier to overlook such moderation. I was happy with AV123, so why bother with the folks that weren't? Seems pretty simple logic to me. I had no experience with AV123 that told me to believe the nay-sayers. Maybe that's because I had a single large purchase in late 2003 and ever since then just considered the AV123 forum the place to share my life events with the world.

Honestly-- I was always hoping that folks would return to that forum --why? Because I didn't want to have to be the one to move, after so many thousands of posts... AV123 forum has "my story" in their database. To abandon that (the physical forum website) was to give up on all I'd built (friendships, history, record-keeping of family events in my life, etc). It has nothing to do with the company-- though I can fully understand why people see my actions in a different light. That's why I'm here now explaining myself-- so that people's wrong impressions of who I am and what I represent can be made more accurate.

I can understand people's dislikes that I chose to continue posting on the forums. But it's been quite some time since I've posted any dismissals of customer dissatisfaction/etc (I did at one time, as did many of us here). I did, however, continue to post "my life's stories" on that forum. Some see that as a crime in itself. And again-- I can understand that mindset. The forum belongs to AV123. AV123 belongs to Mark Schifter. Mark Schifter is pretty hated right now. By extension, the company, the forum, and therefore me. But that's not who I am, and that's not the reason I chose to continue posting my life story on that forum.

It would be nice if people considered what 4,500+ posts in one forum means to a guy, where most of said posts are about his own personal life. The forum database was "my home" much more than a company or person who owns it. What about AH, AudioCircle, or Tweak City, or Emotiva, or AVS? They're companies too with forums. Granted they don't have this big mess swirling around THEM, but regardless, for someone who posts on one of those forums 4,500+ times, is their home the forum, or the company? I hope you can see my side of the fence there. If anything it just reflects the pride I take in my life, my family, and wanting to share it with everyone. I don't hide behind fake online usernames, and I don't try to avoid people knowing where I work or what I do for a living. I'm an honest upright guy who befriended Mark Schifter back in the fall of 2003, long before any of this legal mess occurred. And that friendship was not unlike the friendships that many of us here and other forums have. It's not built around some childhood "growing up" stories that we shared-- its through occasional forum chit-chat like this. Over the years you start to recognize folks and know "they're story." And for me, AV123 forum gave me that "identity." Again, just because I wasn't as quick to jump on the anti-Shifter bandwagon has made me out to be (in some people's eyes) a criminal also, when in reality, I just have a hard time abandoning the database that houses my own personal life's story made public.

(continued)
 
D

dane

Audioholic Intern
3. Leaving all the raffle issues aside for just a moment (more about that below), when it comes to shipping delays and product quality, as an engineer I understood those things. Rarely is a product available when the original marketing deadlines are created. I always wrote that off pretty easily-- Mark is a marketing person not an engineer, and assumed things could be designed, built, tested, modified, rebuilt, retested, and released much quicker than actual. From an engineering standpoint, THOSE issues are NOT issues. They're reality. As for quality control, I was continually frustrated by that. I sent many emails over the years about ideas to fix the problem of wires coming loose during shipping, and crossovers coming loose during shipping. Those things should have been easily fixed. I tried to suggest fixes, but ultimate it wasn't my company. It was, however "my forum" (see above). The fact that those issues remained did frustrate me. Sure. But everybody who LOVES (insert randomly picked company name-- Microsoft, Apple, Dell, etc.) still have things about (company name) that frustrate them about their products. Yet they continue to be customers as long as THEY never have too many of those issues. And I never did (have issues with products I purchased). We all hear that the Internet brings a disproportionate number of naysayers, because happy customers have no need to get online...

Regarding delays and excuses-- I also recognized that AV123 was a small operation. I never knew how big or how small, but I knew that Mark contracted out all his engineering work (a bit mistake I think, but it kept his costs lower at the expense of slower development) and manufacturing work (which most people do these days), leaving only a single office necessary to manage everything. I wrote off delays as a trade-off of that process. About three or so years ago Mark approached me to design an amp in my after-hours. I told him while I'd love to do that, I was too busy, and that I absolutely loved my employer, and that if he let my employer quote the work, I'd be on the team and I think he would be pleasantly surprised at how little overhead my company charges for my time than I charge for my own off-time. He never took me up on that offer though. (this was back in 2007 or so) If he had, it would have given him a stellar product WITH SUPPORT if things ever went wrong in production/etc. I think the subwoofer amplifiers have taught him a lesson there.

Regarding monetary issues-- There's no excuse for lingering unpaid debts, whether they be product or monies. If necessary, privately work out with that person agreed-upon terms of payback. I understand a company pulling the plug on product development after having spent a whole lot of money to get it started-- I think that type of thing happens to design companies more than most people know. In such circumstances payment terms could always be worked out as 10% of the money every two months for 20 months or something to that effect. It's doable. I told him that many times. But who was I to tell a man how to run his company? I still told him my thoughts, but he had to make his own choices in (all) those matters.




Simply put, in the end-- I looked at all of these issues as having separate causes (product development delays; quality control problems; refund frustrations) in my book. Throughout 2009 and in fact everything that occurred once the X-series speakers came about continually blew my mind. "How could he be so unlucky?" I wondered... Never did I consider that there could be a more fundamental issue at hand... I had known the guy since 2003 (as far as an internet acquaintance goes), and it wasn't until about 2009 that I recall so many bad things starting to happen all at once. We discussed it one morning during NAGTG'08 (that he attended). I had a much different mindset then-- but the X-series electronics seemed to bring a lot of unhappy customers, for whatever the reason.



So there you have it. Honest replies again to all of your questions and issues. And I imagine, not terribly different probably from the way many of us think and act over the course of 7 years on a single forum.. I'm a normal guy working hard to make a daily-living and provide for my family-- and defending my name when necessary. It helps that I have nothing to hide. It's just unfortunate that I have to do to this level of explanation for people to realize that I'm not the one they're after. I may have made poor choices in my life (who hasn't?) -- but call me a criminal or an enemy and it's like calling Marty McFly a "chicken" in Back to the Future. I'll fight back to defend my family and my name.


cheers,
..dane
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
Honestly-- I was always hoping that folks would return to that forum --why? Because I didn't want to have to be the one to move, after so many thousands of posts... AV123 forum has "my story" in their database. To abandon that (the physical forum website) was to give up on all I'd built (friendships, history, record-keeping of family events in my life, etc). It has nothing to do with the company-- though I can fully understand why people see my actions in a different light. That's why I'm here now explaining myself-- so that people's wrong impressions of who I am and what I represent can be made more accurate.

I can understand people's dislikes that I chose to continue posting on the forums. But it's been quite some time since I've posted any dismissals of customer dissatisfaction/etc (I did at one time, as did many of us here). I did, however, continue to post "my life's stories" on that forum. Some see that as a crime in itself. And again-- I can understand that mindset. The forum belongs to AV123. AV123 belongs to Mark Schifter. Mark Schifter is pretty hated right now. By extension, the company, the forum, and therefore me. But that's not who I am, and that's not the reason I chose to continue posting my life story on that forum.
We all felt/feel that way. You know how hard it was to tell them to delete all my posts over there? The ones where I poured my soul out after our devastating house fire where we lost everything? All the jokes and bs we shot. The pranks, the recipes, the stories about my dogs. I get it, we all get it but there comes a time where you must take a stand for what is right and what is wrong. I HATE THE FACT THAT MARK RIPPED OUR COMMUNITY FROM US MORE THAN ANY SINGLE THING HE DID, but he did it and there is nothing you can do to change it. You can either move on like the rest of us or you can continue to offend good, honest people who were victimized by him by posting over there just so you can blindly hold on to the past that all of us were cheated out of. Those days are never coming back Dane. Mark did horrible, unthinkable things and he preyed on our kindness and has not shown any signs of real remorse. That is a fact. You have to make a choice and I think you know deep down inside what that is. You are not the only person with your life on that forum. AV123 is not going to do the right thing. They are actively trying to cover up any wrongdoing so it pretty much puts the ball in the forum regulars court to do the right thing. Every single one of the forum regulars made a choice, and I am proud to say most of us made the selfless one to sacrifice our memories and life over there to protect the unassuming.
 
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A

audionut101

Enthusiast
This is for every single one of you who are owed monies, products, and whatever. Even if you've got a gift card or a store credit this applies to YOU.

I've called the Colorado Attorney General's Office on two separate occasions with respect to consumer issues. I've spoken to two different people and have been given the same information in both cases. We're going to do this whole process via the internet.

  1. Remember I said to get yourself organized. WTF are you waiting for?
  2. Write a document detailing what has happened. Keep it organized. Bullet or number it for ease in reading. Remember to mention that Mark Lawrence Schifter has been indicted on four felony counts of fraud pertaining to the raffles. Don't worry the CO AG's office knows who he is. Include any correspondence pertaining to your situation. That includes anything Suzanne may've said as well as Kyle. Everyone is on the hook here.
  3. Get all your emails in chronological order and save them to a document.
  4. Submit it.
    ...

    WTF are you waiting for? Move your phucking asses already!!!


  1. I would add that any one can simply file a small claims case in Colorado as long as the damages are under $8K. Furthermore, you do not even have to be physically present in court, you can request a motion to be present by telephone.

    Feel free to talk to the clerk Anita at 303-441-4749 who can give you all of the necessary information.
 
H

Hugh-Melody

Audioholic
Are you the audio nut in CA I talked to previously several years back.

If not please excuse my ignorance. :)
I would add that any one can simply file a small claims case in Colorado as long as the damages are under $8K. Furthermore, you do not even have to be physically present in court, you can request a motion to be present by telephone.

Feel free to talk to the clerk Anita at 303-441-4749 who can give you all of the necessary information.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
I was not a part of that forum but for folks to return to the forum given all that people know, that which they suspect, and that which still has not been made public has the unintentional consequence of serving to legitimize the company's existence past and present. You'd have to come back and never speak of raffles and a host of other things. You'd have to find a way to reconcile in your own mind that Mark has used the very forum everyone belonged to as a cover and would continue to use it for that purpose. Dane, Jed and others, I really do feel for your anguish. But we all suffer losses be they deaths, moving to another state or country and the marriage of our children.

After any of these sorts of events, life is never the same but there is still life. It's just different. Heck, at some point, either in our own lives or some distant relative's, someone migrated from whatever country they were in to this one. It could not have been easy and there was no guarantee life would be better. But you make new relationships. New friends and new enemies too.

Those who knew your story Dane, still know it. Maybe one day we'll speak on the phone Dane. Not tonight though because I'm a hopin' that the Lakers get back to feeling that old anguish one more time at the hands of the Celtics :D
 
H

Hugh-Melody

Audioholic
What do you mean?

Lakers will kich Celtics' behind tonight.

... Not tonight though because I'm a hopin' that the Lakers get back to feeling that old anguish one more time at the hands of the Celtics :D
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
I was not a part of that forum but for folks to return to the forum given all that people know, that which they suspect, and that which still has not been made public has the unintentional consequence of serving to legitimize the company's existence past and present. You'd have to come back and never speak of raffles and a host of other things. You'd have to find a way to reconcile in your own mind that Mark has used the very forum everyone belonged to as a cover and would continue to use it for that purpose. Dane, Jed and others, I really do feel for your anguish. But we all suffer losses be they deaths, moving to another state or country and the marriage of our children.

After any of these sorts of events, life is never the same but there is still life. It's just different. Heck, at some point, either in our own lives or some distant relative's, someone migrated from whatever country they were in to this one. It could not have been easy and there was no guarantee life would be better. But you make new relationships. New friends and new enemies too.

Those who knew your story Dane, still know it. Maybe one day we'll speak on the phone Dane. Not tonight though because I'm a hopin' that the Lakers get back to feeling that old anguish one more time at the hands of the Celtics :D
I was never one of the hard core groupies, but I was definitely a regular like the majority of the posters. The place just became a grind after a while and absolutely ridiculous the last year. I like to believe I would have made the decision to move on with or without the forum closing because it was starting to feel very cult like when I started getting bombarded with PM's from the fanboys giving me "inside" scoop/spin. In the end, the recklessness of how Mark treated "Dane's life" on that forum is no different then how he treated friends, business partners and customers' trust. That is what I think is so wrong about it. This is not something to really mourn over but honestly to celebrate that rat bastard is finally paying for what he did.

Either way, my advice to Dane is to let it go. That forum will be closed up when they go belly up. The days are dwindling fast where either you can make the decision to unplug or they will make it for you.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
Hey, Curtis. Doing well. How have you been. I guess you're still playing plenty of tennis. I've not played for about 3 years :( My skill back then is hardly comparable to yours, so if we played now, it'll be like playing with a born-again beginner :D I gained about 25 lbs by being sedentary, but lost those in the past year with good exercise and diet. But gained about 5 back due to my new job (I think most of that is muscle mass, though :D)

Texas summer weather sucks for playing tennis, maybe the LA cooler evening weather would be better. Hopefully I can make my way over there to visit you and Hugh in the next couple of months when things slow down with work.
I'm doing well. Only playing tennis about once or twice a month.

I am on a weight loss kick too...but doing it gradually, want to lose about 15 pounds over the course of the year. I am a i little behind schedule though, have only lost 5 pounds since February.

If you make it out here, definitely let me know.

LAKERS!!

It will be a great game, regardless.
 
gonk

gonk

Full Audioholic
There are several issues at play here. First, the online community you are invested in has been sacked, torched, bulldozed, and replaced with a puppet that provides AV123 with a useful marketing tool. Second, the "nice guy" you've known for seven years now has lied to you regularly for all seven of those years. He's been stealing from raffles since October 2004. None of that is your fault, but all of it impacts you and how you interact with your hobby.

1. Simple-- I didn't have the whole story from every side. And frankly, I don't have the time to go search down everyone to find out. A few I tried, and was denied. The forums are a hobby-- some days I have more time, some days (lately) I have much less. I liked many of the folks that I saw leave, but as most people would agree to, this is a side hobby and not to hurt anyone's feelings, I was not about to track down everyone that left to get their side of the story. Right or wrong, I had "better" things to do.
Nhan mentioned patterns. There's no need to personally track down every person who disappears. AV123's forum has been a travesty of a site for almost a year now, ever since they re-opened. Deleted threads, deleted posts, banned members (permanent bans - and quite a few of them), and suppressed topics are everywhere. There's no need to have the whole story to know that the company is doing some weird stuff.

2. I didn't like the approach. But I have heard of many other forums (including AH) that have deleted posts and threads. Even back in the "good old days" of AV123 forums, the "regular scandal" was always regarding AVS Forums moderating so heavily against anything pro-AV123. Forum moderation in my mind became something of a norm. No matter what forum I was on, it was moderated towards a certain look-and-feel. Regardless, I had many friends on that forum. So naturally it was easier to overlook such moderation. I was happy with AV123, so why bother with the folks that weren't? Seems pretty simple logic to me. I had no experience with AV123 that told me to believe the nay-sayers. Maybe that's because I had a single large purchase in late 2003 and ever since then just considered the AV123 forum the place to share my life events with the world.
Sure, most forums experience some level of moderation, and there's usually someone who is dissatisfied with it. What they are doing is a whole different level, though, and I sincerely think that you saw some threads and posts (most of them either at TCA or in this thread) that spelled out exactly what was happening. Heck, you posted in my "Open for interpretation" thread last fall (before it was deleted late last year), where I pointed out exactly what was wrong with their policies. You sent me a PM at the time (9/15/09) according to your post, but since I'm banned I have no idea what it might have said.

Honestly-- I was always hoping that folks would return to that forum --why? Because I didn't want to have to be the one to move, after so many thousands of posts... AV123 forum has "my story" in their database. To abandon that (the physical forum website) was to give up on all I'd built (friendships, history, record-keeping of family events in my life, etc). It has nothing to do with the company-- though I can fully understand why people see my actions in a different light. That's why I'm here now explaining myself-- so that people's wrong impressions of who I am and what I represent can be made more accurate.
I can understand not wanting to leave a familiar site, but the harsh truth is that Mark set fire to that familiar home and burned it to the ground a year and a half or more ago. Those friends aren't coming back, some because they are sick of Mark's lies and some because the company has permanently banned them for asking important but inconvenient questions. Pieces of your story are already gone - all of the hundreds (possibly thousands) of posts that Mark started are gone, as are lots of other threads that were too hard to explain.

It would be nice if people considered what 4,500+ posts in one forum means to a guy, where most of said posts are about his own personal life.
Again, I can understand that (one of my forum homes is Outlaw's site, even though it is a comparatively quiet place). I can also understand why it would be hard to turn the corner and accept that the community you embraced has been destroyed by Mark's actions and AV123's moderation policies. You can still post there to talk about what's going on in your life, but you need to realize what the environment is now. You also should realize that there's no guarantee the forum will exist next week, next month, or next year. Mark's mis-management hasn't just hurt his customers and his forum's community - it has also hurt his company.

3. Leaving all the raffle issues aside for just a moment (more about that below), when it comes to shipping delays and product quality, as an engineer I understood those things. Rarely is a product available when the original marketing deadlines are created. I always wrote that off pretty easily-- Mark is a marketing person not an engineer, and assumed things could be designed, built, tested, modified, rebuilt, retested, and released much quicker than actual.
It's one explanation, but at this late date it's a hard one to build a case for. After decades in the business and years or promises to reform, Mark never showed signs of either A) wanting to find out about project timelines or B) caring if his promises were impossible.

My wife has a degree in psychology, which is pretty far removed from a technical major like engineering. She worked in the banking industry for just over ten years (branches, online banking, and credit cards at various times) before moving to a large non-profit a couple of years ago. She manages IT projects, and she has to keep close track of the schedules. With a good bit less experience than the multiple decades that Mark has, she can spot an unrealistic deadline from across the room. It doesn't require an engineering degree to do that - all it takes is intelligence and a willingness to do a good job. Mark, meanwhile, consistently adhered to Douglas Adams' view of deadlines: "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." Of course, that whooshing sound was accompanied by a cash register in Mark's case, as his impossible promises kept customers from buying elsewhere and even convinced customers to hand over cash up front.

Regarding monetary issues-- There's no excuse for lingering unpaid debts, whether they be product or monies. If necessary, privately work out with that person agreed-upon terms of payback. I understand a company pulling the plug on product development after having spent a whole lot of money to get it started-- I think that type of thing happens to design companies more than most people know. In such circumstances payment terms could always be worked out as 10% of the money every two months for 20 months or something to that effect. It's doable. I told him that many times. But who was I to tell a man how to run his company? I still told him my thoughts, but he had to make his own choices in (all) those matters.
His choices were consistent: screw everybody else. He probably wrote you back or talked to you on the phone and assured you that he was determined to make things right. The timeline of the raffles disproves that with painful clarity. Take this single example from that years-long con: He ran four raffles for Derek, and he stole from all of them. If he were an honest person who made a bad choice once - stealing from the first raffle with plans to pay it back later - he would have steered the later raffles' funds straight to the intended recipient. He didn't do that. He just wanted the money, and Derek's situation made really good bait. Re-payment schedules would involve actually paying back stolen funds, and it was much simpler to promise to take care of it all "soon."
 
R

rotorooter

Audioholic Intern
Dane, I don't think it's a stretch or a personal attack to say that your long response reminded me of one of Mark's long letters where he rationalized every bad thing that happened to him and then tried to explain it away. Maybe if you had just said, " I was wrong about Mark, it took me awhile to see it, but I was still wrong," would have sufficed. When I'm wrong in my own life (and like most, don't want to admit it) I get the apology out of the way and try not to dig myself a hole any further by trying to explain things. I for one hope you've seen the light. I'm going to believe you have.
 
D

dane

Audioholic Intern
Dane, I don't think it's a stretch or a personal attack to say that your long response reminded me of one of Mark's long letters where he rationalized every bad thing that happened to him and then tried to explain it away. Maybe if you had just said, " I was wrong about Mark, it took me awhile to see it, but I was still wrong," would have sufficed. When I'm wrong in my own life (and like most, don't want to admit it) I get the apology out of the way and try not to dig myself a hole any further by trying to explain things. I for one hope you've seen the light. I'm going to believe you have.
haha.. couldn't help but reply to this one quickly. I've NEVER been one for a short note (this might be the first)... Longwindedness is par for the course (and runs VERY deep in my side of the family)..

But, point taken. thanks. :)

..dane
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
The best thing about Game 7 tonight is that we won't have to hear those horns that permeate the World Cup games.
 
H

Hugh-Melody

Audioholic
My two cents :)

The bottom line is this:

Each and everyone of us is a victim in this mess, one way or another.

The thing to remember is to voice your opinion respectfully then let it go.

It had happened to and with me a few times previously and then in the end, the other party admitted I was right all along.

Furthermore, for all the people who just emailed me the last couple days asking about my situation re. my best friend Thanh's raffle plus other items, I had clearly stated previously on 2 occasions and it's now in the hand of my attorney so I'd appreciate not to be reminded of how idiotic I had been. :)

Thanks,
 
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