DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[dane]

If you've been following the legal proceedings then you know at his last court date he had finally retained a lawyer and his next court date is June 29th. So, really if you wanted to follow the legal proceedings you could just wait until shortly after that date to either read about it here or pick up your finger and dial the court clerk herself for an update. Or you could just call that pathetic excuse for a human being and get his side.

I'm an engineer who tends to keep to myself working in my office checking some forums on break-time. I'm not as savvy in searching legal proceedings as you are -- I've never had to deal with "the law" except when I was in high school many years ago to go pay a speeding fine. I am interested in the legal proceedings, but I didn't know I could call up a court clerk and ask for an update-- sorry. This forum is where I've looked, about once every 3 weeks or so, to see what's being posted.. That tells you how much of my time is involved in all this mess--- not much.

And really. What is this sh!t about liberties taken with your name? Suddenly you've become sensitive about what's been said? Jeez, I expect that from naive, impressionable, insecure teens, not an adult.

It was a nice and simple post requesting that I not be lumped in with "TADG" or other conspiracy theories.. I don't think I'm the one flying off the handle on this one.

To me, your next writings, suggest to me that you are naive and foolish.

I'm sorry you feel this way.

The search function here doesn't work properly and you may have to go back or ahead a couple of pages.

Thanks-- didn't know that. As you can tell, I only have a handful of posts here. I don't come here often.

To say I'm disappointed in you is an understatement Dane.

Nobody can please everyone..

I wish you no personal harm...

Your replies above speaks otherwise, IMO.

Chu, you are way out of line on this one.

[...]
You are absolutely right when you say that Dane was lucky his company didn't get any "business" from AV123, but to imply that he wanted to sacrifice the company he works for and his standing in it for MLS??? Other than a few unhappy customers and some rumblings about the raffles, none of that was public knowledge when Dane was trying to get MLS to work with his company. All that most of us saw was that AV123 was having lots of problems with their electronics, and they wanted desperately to fix those problems. That may not have been reality, but that's what we knew at the time.

Then you run off the rails and say that he's "betrayed the remnants of the AV451 community and [has] next to no integrity."

Thanks for that post Darren.

There's no way you didn't know he was a crook in December 2009. I knew by summer 2009 because there's so much info on this out there I found out by accident.

I would refer back to geekinthehood's post here..

• Yes, there were grumblings about problems with raffles at that time.
• There were even grumblings of legal actions.
• Sometimes people grumble about legal action just because they're upset.
• I PM'd a few people "in the know" to try and find out other sides of the story (to make up my own mind, rather than just assuming everything that was posted was true) and they said they were tired of it all and didn't want to stir it all back up again.
• Given that MLS and AV123 are not central to my life, I did not (and still do not) spend anywhere near the amount of time on these issues as Chu and others.
• If my lack of placing these issues above other priorities in my life (work, family, etc) somehow puts me in y'all's eyes as "in cahoots" with all these goings on or as somehow being a public enemy to fellow audio enthusiasts, then I'm terribly sorry but you're wrong.
• The reality is that I don't think about this stuff but once or twice a month, and that's even in passing.
• Yes I still deal with AV123 -- I'm trying to get a co-worker's Tyke speaker fixed, and I'm trying to get information on the Dayton plate amp mod to wrap up a sub repair for a local audio buddy. And like it or not, their forum still has a high-traffic classifieds section that I have been using regularly.

The long and short of it this-- Maybe I don't know 'the whole story.' I know bits and pieces from different sides. They conflict. Whatever I believe has no bearing outside my own mindset, so I have stopped sharing it. I'm not involved, I'm not owed monies, I'm not a judge, and I'm not a fly on the wall of any room remotely close to these proceedings. And when I have approached those involved I've been shut out. So how can I make a judgment one way or another? So I don't.

Am I calling MLS guilty? No. Am I calling him innocent? No. When I heard he was arrested a while back and was spending the night in jail I wrote Suzanne a letter and asked her to deliver it to him. The letter basically said that now is his time to stand up and tell the truth, whatever that may be. That everything is in God's hands, and whatever God wants to let happen will happen.

My prior attempts to secure a business deal to build subwoofer amplifiers with AV123, I think, have no bearing on MLS's legal proceedings. Can AV123 exist without MLS? I have always thought so. Maybe that's another naive mistake on my part though. And as Darren has already reminded everyone, the last conversation with MLS about any potential opportunity was back at the turn of the year.

I say all of this only to remind everyone that I have nothing to hide, have done nothing wrong, and am enemy to no-one here. It is clearly obvious that Chu and others here know a *LOT* more about all of this stuff than I do. And that's fine. As I said, I don't spend much of my life's time here or on this topic. I just wanted to clear the air that I am not the "D" in TADG, or anything else. The replies that have followed have taken things unfortunately far past that point. Maybe it would have been better to have continued to ignore the jokes made at my expense.

As for me, I'd love to read the transcript of the court proceedings. If that's something I just call up the clerk and ask for, then that's new information for me. (I didn't know it would be so simple.)

I'm seriously concerned that a company that deals with national defense issues would even consider partnering with a criminal and con artist. That kind of judgement call really worries me and I hope it's an isolated brain fart on your part. Seriously dude, you make some real important stuff - why risk messing it up by partnering with a confessed criminal?

To go and question my employer is a gross mis-step and I hope you were joking about that.. The only reason I have ever shared who my employer even is, is to both acknowledge that I do not work for AV123 or any related industry, and to get the name of our small company "out there" in hopes that someone reading may ever think "hey, we've got a need for a ..(insert name of widget here).. maybe I'll see if LIT can quote it." LIT provides quality work at a fraction of the cost of other larger companies, and we are willing to take on less-than-100pcs projects (some larger company won't even shake a stick at you unless you're talking hundreds of thousands of units), and I do my (very small) part trying to get our name out there by mentioning it in various forums. I'm quite proud of who I work for. We're an absolutely wonderful little company that can really get the job done right.

As mentioned, when I was talking with MLS about bringing the plate amplifier back state-side, none of this legal stuff had exploded yet. It was still in the grumblings stage, and as I've already mentioned above, I tend to ignore grumblings because the unfortunately reality is that online, everybody grumbles about something.

The fact that all of this raffle and other business has had enough merit to actually make it to trial is quite disturbing. But I still do not see how I somehow become a disgusting excuse for a human just because I was trying to win a business contract and in turn provide my audio enthusiast friends with a more reliable plate amp for their subwoofers.

Is that so we can surf the web while waiting for the enemy to explode? awesome!

Hahaha... no, it simply links all of the launchers together with the command station. All communications there are very timing sensitive and we designed an extremely deterministic communication mechanism to ensure those communications are always done properly and at exactly the right time.

More on the PFOM can be found here:
lewisinnovative . com/pfom.html


..dane

 

[BWG707]

Dane is simply another person caught up in lust for more money (greed). He will ignore anything negative if it might lead to money. He knew at the time that MLS screwed many people but he ignored that in hopes to get some work for his company and himself. As he has stated his "company is very small", and in todays economy any contract is valuble. He trys to justify his stand by saying the all to familar "he's innocent until proven guilty". It's a case of valuing money over integrity. Shame on you.

 

[dane]

I could be wrong but I remember shortly after Mark was indicted and Dane insisted that his name was taken off the indictment (like that was even possible) he claimed a week or so later that he was still in talks with Suzanne to get their "project" started. Dane wanted to do business with Mark even after the truth had come out and even after everybody knew about the grand jury indictment. Dane still wouldn't believe (and I think he still doesn't believe) that Mark is the person that everybody else told him. In that regard, he did shun our community and take sides with the predator/criminal. There are just a very small handful of people I think really, really showed major disrespect for the real victims in this process and unfortunately for Dane he is one of them. Outside of this Dane seems like a really nice, decent guy but he is seriously off base on Mark, and to such a degree that he is insulting/hurting everybody that was taken by Mark. That is just my opinion.

Jed, I appreciate your respectful honesty here. Let me set a few things straight..

• Yes, I considered having my name removed from any list.
• In my legal naivety, I didn't know what it would mean to have my name on the list, so -- never having dealt with the law, I thought at the time that I'd just like to not be involved one way or another, which is why I said what I did. I worried (incorrectly) that my name being ON the list was a record of my own personal JUDGMENT about the case, and I did not want to make such a claim because I did not have all the facts.
• I did in fact contact the investigator who was putting the list together, and after discussing with the investigator what the actual list "meant," I decided to not request my name be removed, and dropped the matter.
• Whether or not my name could have even been removed from the list is beside the point-- once I learned what the list represented, I dropped my request to have my name removed.

You're misreading what I wrote above. I'm not saying that he wanted to sacrifice his company. I'm saying a few things.

• He knew about the raffle business and that the shenanigans extended beyond the one's Mark admitted to.
• He knew about the RSL-II prepays and how no one got their money back or a product.
• He knew about similar matters with the LS-9's and 6's.
• He knew people weren't getting refunds.
• He knew about the fellow who paid Mark for speakers that were supposed to come but never did from the supposed friend of his that was supposed to be going through a divorce.
• He knew about how Mark and others mocked Jongaro's situation by having a sale in his name.
• He has seen the deletion of posts and the banning of members.

[SIZE="+1"]Huh?? Why are you claiming I know all this stuff that I don't?[/SIZE]

• He knew about the raffle business and that the shenanigans extended beyond the one's Mark admitted to.
  • I knew about FORUM CLAIMS to raffle business. Nothing more.
• He knew about the RSL-II prepays and how no one got their money back or a product.
  • Actually, I never followed RSLII prepay concerns. I followed LS prepay concerns because I had friends on that list. I don't know WHO was on the RSLII prepay list.
• He knew about similar matters with the LS-9's and 6's.
  • Yes, I knew about delays in product for LS. As far as I know, all LS products have been shipped, albeit with lingering frustration of recipients.
• He knew people weren't getting refunds.
  • I knew about FORUM CLAIMS that people were not getting refunds.
• He knew about the fellow who paid Mark for speakers that were supposed to come but never did from the supposed friend of his that was supposed to be going through a divorce.
  • Huh? I don't recall what you're talking about here-- if it was in a thread then maybe I read it-- but I certainly don't remember anything about a divorce.. I recall a few forum members have gone THROUGH divorce proceedings over the years..
• He knew about how Mark and others mocked Jongaro's situation by having a sale in his name.
  • Yes, and I thought that was either an inside joke that I didn't get, or done in poor taste. I don't see how this and some other items you list here are anywhere relevant to anything we're discussing.
• He has seen the deletion of posts and the banning of members.
  • I see "the deletion of posts and the banning of members" on LOTS of forums. If that is an indication of a less than trustworthy business, then I don't think we'd have anywhere left to go!

But repeated attempts to engage his company with Mark shows incredibly poor business judgment in light of the information available.

I'll say this-- there are lots of businesses in the world who continue doing business even during legal proceedings. If you follow the innocent until proven guilty ideal, that makes sense. You and others clearly feel otherwise, and that's fine. But again, I was trying to create an opportunity for AV123 subwoofer customers to get a more reliable plate amplifier with so many in the field going bad. My feelings towards MLS and his legal situation has nothing to do with my also trying to get a reliable plate amplifier to AV123 subwoofer customers. And since all that has happened, AV123 has started using Dayton amps in their subwoofer repairs, so the point is even more moot now.

Attempting to provide a solid subwoofer amplifier to a company for their customers' sake while a single employee of that company (CEO or otherwise) is undergoing legal proceedings, I do not think is bad business practice. But as you've implied-- what do I know.

The friend of my enemy is in essence my enemy.
[...]
Dane also knows of them and sought to do business with him. He has posted on his forum and in a small way that lends a stamp of credulity to it. That's betrayal in my book and I'm not saying it behind his back.

Chu, you have no idea what I know or don't know, and I would greatly appreciate it if you would stop claiming you know what I know or my motives behind my actions.

I have tried in these recent posts to give my back story and my motives to clear the air and my name. (And apparently, now, my employer? ) They are clean and honest. Your posts to the contrary regarding me, my level of knowledge about these events, and/or my motives are quite insulting.

I too recall the posts - since deleted - where a few people rose up and took strong, vocal offense having to do with not given permission to use their names.

And hopefully my explanation above provides the necessary information you need to get off my back and realize I'm just an ordinary hard-working middle-class American like everyone else here.

You are initialed to your opinion that Chu is wrong naturally,but to say he ran off the rails by saying,Mark betrayed the remnants of the AV451 community and [has] next to no integrity." ,is a pretty damn fair assessment of how most people feel,and exactly how I feel.

Darren and I were both under the impression that Chu's statement above was directed at ME, not MLS. At least that why I think Darren replied as he did.

..dane

 

[dane]

Dane is simply another person caught up in lust for more money (greed). He will ignore anything negative if it might lead to money. He knew at the time that MLS screwed many people but he ignored that in hopes to get some work for his company and himself. As he has stated his "company is very small", and in todays economy any contract is valuble. He trys to justify his stand by saying the all to familar "he's innocent until proven guilty". It's a case of valuing money over integrity. Shame on you.

I think you're making some wrong assumptions there buddy.

..dane

 

[Jed M]

Dane, I hate to see you getting piled on here because I think I know what kind of guy you are in real life. I have gone out of my way not to use the forums to slam people who got involved in this outside of AV123, including Chu and Craig (although they both may disagree with that). Unfortunately I can't defend you from the skewering you are receiving as much as I know you are not a bad person.

For somebody who had almost twice the amount of posts over there that I did and for you to still be playing the "I just didn't realize all this was happening" card is pretty lousy. I understand what John is doing. I understand what Buzz is doing. I get what Craig is doing. I understand what Droht is doing. I understand what Jack is doing. I understand what Hugh is doing. We all handle it differently. You don't have to trash a man or call him out to make a point, but you must take a stand for what is wrong and right. This has never been a case of he said/she said. This is a case of he said/hundreds, if not thousands, of his victims said. To me, the penalty he gets doesn't mean a thing. He is guilty on a moral level and that is enough for me to stand up and say something, even if the law can't.

Again, I know that you aren't a bad person "in real life" but for you to act like your were blind to all this is highly unlikely, IMO, considering you were there posting at a rate twice that of mine. We all make mistakes, but its how we face up to them that matters. We could all learn from Mark's behavior in this regard.

 

[subdude]

The long and short of it this-- Maybe I don't know 'the whole story.' I know bits and pieces from different sides.

Conflicting stories aside, it was well established fact by that time that

- people had paid for product that never shipped (in fact never even was made)
- MLS admitted stealing money from the raffles (on his own forum no less)

And when I have approached those involved I've been shut out. So how can I make a judgment one way or another? So I don't.

You can make a judgement by examining only the two undisputed facts above, known well in advance of your continued attempts to partner with a confessed criminal, and by the fact that when you ask MLS about it you are "shut out."

When I heard he was arrested a while back and was spending the night in jail I wrote Suzanne a letter and asked her to deliver it to him. The letter basically said that now is his time to stand up and tell the truth, whatever that may be.

A lot of other people wrote letters too. They said, "I ordered stuff 2+ years ago and paid, can I have it please?" and "Why did you steal from charities and children?" and "why didn't you pay me? I'm a supplier..." Most were not answered- was yours?

the last conversation with MLS about any potential opportunity was back at the turn of the year.

The truth was already out there at this point. You knew it. I knew it and I wasn't anywhere near as close to the situation as you. Did you just not care because it wasn't you who got screwed?

Yes I still deal with AV123

I guess that says more than anything I or anyone else could about where you stand, then. Thanks for the transparency and the illumination it provides about your ethical standards for business partners.

To go and question my employer is a gross mis-step and I hope you were joking about that..

I was completely serious. No company that deals with admitted criminals should be working with our defense or military on anything, period. That's another reason why the refusal to distance from MLS and his firm is so shocking. I would expect reputable firms to make a clean break, not stay entangled and oddly unphased by the link to criminal activity. The fact that you don't, and were still pursuing business partnerships in December '09 - either it's extreme ignorance or apathy, and both disqualify from that kind of defense-related work, IMO.

none of this legal stuff had exploded yet. It was still in the grumblings stage

Nonsense! He had admitted it in his own forum, publicly! Please, stop. You're damaging your credibility with each "I didn't know" reply.

I didn't even know who you were before today, and with each weak "who knew?" reply I find more reason to distrust you, your motives, and your judgement. All from the comments you've posted in the past few hours. You should quit while you're ahead. Or come up with a better argument as to why you chose (continue to choose?) to pursue partnership with a confessed con-man and criminal who also wouldn't issue either product or refunds for vaporware items he sold online, and didn't pay suppliers for stuff they delivered.

"I was only in it for my audio buddies" and "how could I have known?" isn't working.

 

[randyb]

Conflicting stories aside, it was well established fact by that time that

- MLS admitted stealing money from the raffles (on his own forum no less)

Nah, he just underfunded them. What a wordsmith.

 

[MinusTheBear]

Dane,

You must have seen posts either linking/quoting on other forums or reading directly on the AV123.gone forum regarding MLS himself admitting to "underfunding" a few raffles (at that time period). Anyone remotely following this saga knew about that. That is a very serious admission IMO and showed me his is a suspect character, poor business man and has a lack of credibility to start any type of business relationship with. A time period well before (months even) the indictment was handed down by the state of Colorado. That type of admission was not "grumblings" and should have waved a really big red flag about pursuing anything with AV123.

 

[gonk]

When I heard he was arrested a while back and was spending the night in jail I wrote Suzanne a letter and asked her to deliver it to him. The letter basically said that now is his time to stand up and tell the truth, whatever that may be. That everything is in God's hands, and whatever God wants to let happen will happen.

I wrote Mark emails numerous times last year and early this year (most of them after I was permanently banned from their forum for questioning their policies on forum moderation, suppressing requests for refunds, suppressing requests for overdue products, and suppressing information about the raffles). My emails said much the same thing as your letter appears to have said, although I left my personal faith out of it. All I ever got back was empty hand-waving and lies. Months later, people on their forum can quite possibly have no idea that the man's been indicted for stealing from his customers, unless they research outside the forum, because of the company's ongoing moderation policies.

All indications are that Mark doesn't give a flip about what's right. He's had years to correct his actions, and time after time he has instead compounded them by adding to the list of wrongs. There is still no indication that Mark is interested in owning up to his mistakes, much less his crimes, if it involves more than saying "I'll do better" and offering a hug.

Let me set a few things straight..

• Yes, I considered having my name removed from any list.
• In my legal naivety, I didn't know what it would mean to have my name on the list, so -- never having dealt with the law, I thought at the time that I'd just like to not be involved one way or another, which is why I said what I did. I worried (incorrectly) that my name being ON the list was a record of my own personal JUDGMENT about the case, and I did not want to make such a claim because I did not have all the facts.
• I did in fact contact the investigator who was putting the list together, and after discussing with the investigator what the actual list "meant," I decided to not request my name be removed, and dropped the matter.
• Whether or not my name could have even been removed from the list is beside the point-- once I learned what the list represented, I dropped my request to have my name removed.

Here's what bugs a lot of people (including me): the state of Colorado looked into it and found that money donated by hundreds of people (including you) was never delivered to the charities it was intended for. The state found enough evidence that Mark had stolen those funds to get an indictment against him. Going into a forum that you know is "moderated" to be a one-sided story and suggesting that you want to have your name removed from the indictment looks like you want to lessen the impact of Mark's crimes, brush they away as not important enough to worry about. It looks like you don't care that he stole from you, and by extension that he stole from hundreds of others. Maybe that wasn't your intention, but for others that is the message they took away from it. You changed your mind later. I'm glad of that. But your original statement had already painted a picture in the mind of whoever read it. In some minds (particularly those who had no knowledge of the matter), it would suggest faith in the man and the company. In other minds, it was another effort to wave away the theft of $150,000+ in charitable donations.

Mark has succeeded in ripping off many, many people over the years, and the AV123 forum community's willingness to stand by him (a willingness often based on beliefs in Mark that he purposefully cultivated, manipulating people's faith in him to suit his own needs) helped him do that for a long time. In some small way, it is still serving that purpose, although in a greatly reduced capacity.

 

[dane]

I think it would be safe to assume then, based on these replies, that the biggest beef that anybody has with me is that I tried to get a contract to produce subwoofer amplifiers? If that's the case, let me be even more transparent. If it turns out that I'm just another of life's complete idiots, then so be it and everybody can just move along without needing to continue to insult me.

I focus pretty heavily on my engineering work. That's what I do. That and my family. I'm by NO MEANS a "business-person." So in my small and apparently wrong view of the world, I see AV123 as a business, and MLS as an individual. If that's not the case, then why is AV123 not included in all this legal goings-on? As such, I see AV123 as being able to survive this storm and get back to making the fine products they did six years ago (when I bought my Rockets from them). That is the reason I continued to pursue the subwoofer plate amplifier issue-- I saw AV123 as a company that could stand on its own and still has a future of providing a good bang/buck ratio. Does that make me an idiot? Maybe. At the time I didn't think so. And I certainly didn't think it would turn into as big a situation as it has.

Of course I saw some of the threads of people being upset with delays and the growing number of threads that reported raffle misgivings. Of course they were disturbing (and still are). It wasn't MLS that I PM'd for "the truth" and was shut out, it was the subjects in the raffle-questions threads. Dxxxx and others. I saw what people were posting, a whole lot of it. I don't think I posted much in those threads though (that I recall). Honestly I've never gone back to re-read them, and until reading here yesterday I had no idea that some 15,000 posts have been deleted since then. That's even more bothersome, I agree.

What did I know then, beyond a shadow of a doubt? -- I knew there were a whole lot of forum folks starting to pool their stories about lack of refunds, products, and problems with raffles. I was (and still am) under the impression that all of those issues were related to sales and dealings with MLS himself (or through the Graham Company), and not AV123. In my version of the business world I saw AV123 and the individual MLS as two separable things. Maybe I was wrong in doing so. But anyway, I continued with the impression that dealing with AV123 (Suzanne, Kyle, etc) about a potential supplier opportunity was isolated enough from MLS's personal problems. I also thought that with the growing legal threat (at the time) that everything would be resolved pretty quickly. I know many times that a legal threat gets things rolling and then things are settled out of court. That obviously hasn't happened yet though.

So there you have it. Maybe I'm just a complete idiot. I thought dealing with Suzanne at AV123 to try and help AV123 the company get back to making reliable products could be done without involving MLS.

The truth was already out there at this point. You knew it. I knew it and I wasn't anywhere near as close to the situation as you. Did you just not care because it wasn't you who got screwed?

What makes you think I was "closer" to the situation? I didn't know anything more than anyone else was reading on the forums. I was under the impression that MLS took out a loan against a house in the SFBay area that went to him after the passing of a family member, and when that house didn't sell as quickly as it was supposed to, his financial problems became worse.

Please don't make assumptions about my motives. I've tried to state them here openly. Maybe I'm an idiot for thinking AV123 could get back to making solid products and leave MLS to deal with his issues. (I haven't spoken to MLS in many months now)

It wasn't that I "didn't care," those are some harsh words. I was separating AV123 and MLS. Right or wrong, that's what I was doing.

Dane,

You must have seen posts either linking/quoting on other forums or reading directly on the AV123.gone forum regarding MLS himself admitting to "underfunding" a few raffles (at that time period). Anyone remotely following this saga knew about that. That is a very serious admission IMO and showed me his is a suspect character, poor business man and has a lack of credibility to start any type of business relationship with. A time period well before (months even) the indictment was handed down by the state of Colorado. That type of admission was not "grumblings" and should have waved a really big red flag about pursuing anything with AV123.

Thank you for maintaining civility here. I don't recall when the 'underfunding' admission came about, but yes, I read it within a week or so of it making headlines. I actually read it on another forum, not av123's. (just because I have plenty of posts there does NOT mean I read every thread!) No, I wasn't following those issues extremely closely because 1) I was not involved, and 2) as Darren said, it was against what I had believed of MLS from the times I had spoken and met him, (difficult to reconcile) and 3) I read it in passing as a business situation in regards to the SFBay house (above) that would be resolved.

Guys, all I'm trying to do is show that I'm not some hoodlum in cahoots. I may have made some bad choices myself in the past-- who doesn't? At this point I'm just sitting by reading what's going on, thinking this was the best place to get such information. The company I work for has no bearing on any of this..

I'm letting everyone know my thought processes, as well as what I did and did not know then and now. And what things I honestly thought would be resolved long before now.

Maybe I was just "taken in" much more than the next guy because of my incessant positive attitude.

What more do I need to say?

cheers,
..dane

 

[Chu Gai]

Dane, there has never been such an unprecedented amount and diverse bad press surrounding an internet direct audio company. Ever. It spilled over to a great number of websites and you were not ignorant of it. With respect to myself, you were more concerned with me and my motives than you were by the criminal wrongdoings that not only included the raffles, but extended way beyond. Knowing at least that much, you made a conscious decision to see if you could do some business with MLS. On one side of the road stood hundreds of people, charities, and companies who took it up the sh!tter. On the other side was a possible business relationship. You chose your side. I know there's more to you than this but can you honestly say that you went to your superiors about what you were looking to involve them in? Jeez Dane. Here's a guy who can't come up with the money to pay back the raffles he admitted to. Can't come up with the money to pay off the RSL-II prepays. Can't come up with the money for a whole bunch of things people were writing about that affected them personally. Can't come up with the money to stop foreclosure on his second (now first also) mortgage. You knew all this last year and thought he'd be worthwhile pursuing? You're nuts! I don't buy your rationalization that they were just claims and could not be taken seriously.

Aside from that, actual court transcripts will cost you money on a per page basis. In your question regarding legal matters on the other thread here, I gave you a reply that included how to contact the court clerk.

 

[Chu Gai]

Dane. MLS is AV451. His is the only name on the incorporation documents. Not his wife. Not Suzy-Q. No board of directors. No shareholders. Just him. The Graham Company is a fictitious construct that has no legal standing in the state of Colorado. The company's name was mentioned on the Attorney General's indictments. You say you're an engineer. Great. So WTF are you thinking that dealing with MLS is good business? If you're saying you're looking at dealing with AV451, given that the company is just one person, you ARE dealing with MLS. That's where the buck stops and then disappears.

 

[audionut101]

I'll PM you later in the day or tomorrow.

Chu Gai, I don't have enough posts to send you a private message. Can you contact me off line? Thanks!

 

[dane]

It looks like you don't care that he stole from you, and by extension that he stole from hundreds of others. Maybe that wasn't your intention, but for others that is the message they took away from it. You changed your mind later. I'm glad of that. But your original statement had already painted a picture in the mind of whoever read it. In some minds (particularly those who had no knowledge of the matter), it would suggest faith in the man and the company. In other minds, it was another effort to wave away the theft of $150,000+ in charitable donations.

I can understand this perception now. But as mentioned, I did not early-on understand what my name being on the list meant... once I realized what it meant, I had no problem with it. Maybe it will take time for people to believe me on that. Sometimes it's easier to get upset than it is to calm back down.

Mark has succeeded in ripping off many, many people over the years, and the AV123 forum community's willingness to stand by him (a willingness often based on beliefs in Mark that he purposefully cultivated, manipulating people's faith in him to suit his own needs) helped him do that for a long time. In some small way, it is still serving that purpose, although in a greatly reduced capacity.

Maybe you're right. A friend just sent me an email who has read a bunch of these past few days posts and offered that maybe I still just haven't come to grips with everything that's happened. Maybe he's right.

Dane, there has never been such an unprecedented amount and diverse bad press surrounding an internet direct audio company. Ever. It spilled over to a great number of websites and you were not ignorant of it. With respect to myself, you were more concerned with me and my motives than you were by the criminal wrongdoings that not only included the raffles, but extended way beyond.

The internet is funny that way. Truths and lies spread equally quickly. I will openly admit to taking a "glass half full" approach to this life, and in doing so I have been burned before. In the end this (belief that the spreading internet wildfires were lies) may be another check mark in the burned column on my life's checklist.

Knowing at least that much, you made a conscious decision to see if you could do some business with MLS. On one side of the road stood hundreds of people, charities, and companies who took it up the sh!tter. On the other side was a possible business relationship. You chose your side.

I respectfully disagree with your gross oversimplification of my motives given my history, mindset, worldview, etc. They're just plain wrong. Now, maybe my actions were wrong- that can be debated. But you are wrong to claim you know my motives.

I know there's more to you than this but can you honestly say that you went to your superiors about what you were looking to involve them in?

In fact, when the indictment came down, I did notify my superiors. I was also still quite under the impression that AV123 was a separable entity.

Aside from that, actual court transcripts will cost you money on a per page basis. In your question regarding legal matters on the other thread here, I gave you a reply that included how to contact the court clerk.

I thought that was this thread-- where I went online to login to see proceedings-- anyway, all that told me at the time was that it was, I forget the word-- "continued" or something like that. I figured that's all that website was much good for and haven't been back since.. I don't spend much time doing legal research.

And until the email my friend just sent me 10 minutes ago, I didn't know either that Sean P. had a court appearance against MLS. And no, I don't know how that went either-- I just heard that there was one. I'm sorry, my life just doesn't revolve around these proceedings!

I find it very surprising the level of disgust people have with me given that any time I spend on a potential subwoofer deal accounts for what, a few hours worth of work at the beginning of 2010, and a few scattering conversations with MLS over the course of all of 2009. It's not like that choice (good or bad) accounts for a significant portion of my life's work. Yet that's all that people know of me. Go read any number of my posts on AV123 and you'll see I'm a stand-up guy... Or come to Huntsville, we'll do lunch and have a nice long chat. You'll see pretty easily that I'm not what this forum is painting me to be.

cheers,
..dane

 

[dane]

Dane. MLS is AV451. His is the only name on the incorporation documents. Not his wife. Not Suzy-Q. No board of directors. No shareholders. Just him. The Graham Company is a fictitious construct that has no legal standing in the state of Colorado. The company's name was mentioned on the Attorney General's indictments.

Didn't know that MLS is the only name on the incorporation documents. Makes me wonder how our own small company is incorporated-- just the CEO here too? When new shareholders are added, are the incorporation documents re-done?

If you're saying you're looking at dealing with AV451, given that the company is just one person, you ARE dealing with MLS.

And I've been VERY CLEAR that I was NOT aware of that-- So BACK OFF! I've been dealing with Kyle and Suzanne recently -- and even that has only been to get a co-workers Tyke speaker and a buddy's UFW-10 subwoofer fixed.... I've been clear on that too. I haven't spoken with MLS in over six months...

I don't make the business decisions at our company-- I just try to bring in opportunities by spreading the word of what we do.. As an employee of a company who really enjoys what I do and the company I work for, I'm all about spreading our name and trying to help expand our business.. who wouldn't? If you're proud of what you do and who you work for, wouldn't you?

I tried to bring in an AV123 opportunity with the impression that it could be isolated from the legal mess that MLS is going through. I appears that I was under the wrong impression if in fact AV123 will disappear if MLS disappears.

I hope I've been clear enough now to resolve these issues with me, my name, who I am, and what I represent.

cheers,
..dane

 

[BWG707]

I think you're making some wrong assumptions there buddy.

..dane

Please explain otherwise as to why these are assumptions are wrong.
I just saw that you admitted that you still do business with AV123, that pretty much sums everything up. Very incriminating.
One last thing, if you do end up doing business with AV123 who's pocket do you think the money goes into?
You cannot be that naive about all of this.

 

[bunnyma357]

Dane,

I think it is posts like this one:

http://forums.av123.com/showpost.php?p=763458&postcount=11

That make people feel you are still in full support of MLS. Up until today, you haven't given an inkling of being upset with any of MLS' deeds.

What you say you believe and how you are acting don't seem to mesh - actions speak louder than words - and your actions are those of someone with knowledge of MLS' wrongdoings who is willing to overlook them.

Jim C

 

[cschang]

I don't know, but wouldn't you want to attempt to get a clear picture of a company, track record, and maybe some kind of a history with other vendors, before attempting to do business with it?

 

[Hugh-Melody]

Nothing wrong with this.

Most of us who had bought products from av123 still need to get support from them.

I've been dealing with Kyle and Suzanne recently -- and even that has only been to get a co-workers Tyke speaker and a buddy's UFW-10 subwoofer fixed.... I've been clear on that too.
cheers,
..dane

 

[bunnyma357]

Please explain otherwise as to why these are assumptions are wrong.
I just saw that you admitted that you still do business with AV123, that pretty much sums everything up. Very incriminating.

I might be mistaken, but I think that by "still doing business", Dane is referring to trying to get products repaired - there are many still "doing business" with AV123 trying to get speakers delivered, subs repaired, invoices paid, etc.


Jim C