DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[Chu Gai]

Well, after waiting YEARS for the RSL2 and many broken promises and ignored emails and phone calls, I finally decided to have my case heard in small claims court in CO.

yes, I will have to fly down and present my case, but I figure it is more about principal. I have spoken to other lawyers who say it is one thing to win a case and another to collect, I figure it will be a fun learning experience for me.

anyone who was on the RSL2 list who prepaid or anyone else want to give me some extra evidence or advice, feel free to PM me.

My court date is set for the end of June. It will be interesting!

You're aware that MLS has a court date for June 29th on the raffle matter. If your date is somewhere close to that, you may want to consider a postponement. Book your flights in such a way as to allow for cancellations or alterations. Southwest Air I think is pretty good about such things. Otherwise, Colorado has information regarding small claims matters and if you haven't read up on it, it'd be a good idea. If you need a link, let me know.

I spoke briefly with an RSL-II prepayer who is from overseas. Obviously small claims is out of the question but he may be able to seek redress by other means.

 

[geekinthehood]

I spoke briefly with an RSL-II prepayer who is from overseas. Obviously small claims is out of the question but he may be able to seek redress by other means.

My ears just perked up.

 

[audionut101]

You're aware that MLS has a court date for June 29th on the raffle matter. If your date is somewhere close to that, you may want to consider a postponement....

I spoke briefly with an RSL-II prepayer who is from overseas. Obviously small claims is out of the question but he may be able to seek redress by other means.

Yes my date is very close to that date. Why would I want to postpone? If he doesn't show up, I win the case.

Secondly, what do you mean by "redress by other means"??

 

[Chu Gai]

Yes my date is very close to that date. Why would I want to postpone? If he doesn't show up, I win the case.

Secondly, what do you mean by "redress by other means"??

I'll PM you later in the day or tomorrow.

 

[dane]

sigh..

Hmmm... I visit here periodically to follow along the legal proceedings just like everyone else ... just don't post here much. Then I see a post with my name referenced in it, so I decide to do a search in the thread for my name.. And now I find over the past months there have been multiple liberties taken with my name.

I find it interesting (and a bit sad) that since everything started months ago, not one single person on any of the forums I belong to has ever privately (or publicly, that I have seen) come to me for "my side of the story." What anyone thinks about me is up to them, I'm not out for a fight, and everybody who has ever read my posts knows that. But don't go thinking that I or the company I work for are related to TADG or anything else.

The truth of the matter is that I work for a small engineering services company located in Huntsville, Alabama called Lewis Innovative Technologies, Inc. (website www . lewisinnovative . com, minus the spaces since I have less than 5 posts here) I have attempted several times to garner some business with AV123 since we're in the electronics-making business and always looking for additional opportunities. With MLS having troubles with overseas production I thought I'd give it a shot. As of yet nothing has come to fruition but a couple upbeat phone discussions (the last one close to new year's if I recall correctly). Here at LIT we have many successful millitary and commercial designs both completed and in the works, including the very successful PFOM (Patriot Fiber Optic Modem -- yes, Patriot as in the missle system). To attempt an link LIT and MLS or AV123 is an excercise in complete futility. No one else at LIT has ever spoken or corresponded with MLS or AV123, and to think I am some part of their design group (or 'groupe') is just silly.

Interestingly, although the search tool here yields plenty of hits to my name, clicking the links to those posts do not work-- maybe those posts were deleted? I don't know.

I know this is probably the last thread to ask for some respect, but come on guys. If anyone can stand up and tell me they have an honest beef with me, let's hear it. Otherwise, please give me a little more respect than tossing my name around so flippantly.

You know, the av123 forums still serve a purpose even today. It's also a virtual swap meet where owners of the many faulty products can exchange parts of various models/versions in an attempt to salvage their investment.

forums.av123. com/showthread.php?t=43987

To be clear, this sub was sent to me over a year ago when MLS was considering having the company I work for diagnose the problem. In the end they decided to scrap that amp design, and the sub sat in my office.. A year or more later, while trying to raise money to upgrade my HT, I called and asked if they wanted it back and they said no. So, having two bad amps at my disposal I went for some "lowest hanging fruit" to try and get a single plate amp working again to sell the amp and continue with my HT upgrade.

Long story short, I felt it was less hassle and more reliable to use the same Dayton SA240 plate amp that is currently being used for warantee replacements. There is apparently a small mod to the Dayton amp that is recommended (though I'm not sure if it's entirely necessary), I am waiting to hear back from Kyle regarding that mod. I have a local buyer for the sub who is fully aware of all the goings on.

Just before the local buyer agreed to the Dayton solution, I considered attempting to sell the remaining pieces in the thread quoted above...

I'm as interested as everyone else here to follow the legal proceedings that are ongoing. I don't check for updates here but maybe twice a month, but I'm still following things. I just keep my own opinions more to myself these days.

cheers,
..dane

 

[gonk]

You and I have talked a bit in recent months on other forums, mostly about matters completely unrelated to AV123's issues, but I think you have some idea of where I stand on the company and its president. Sadly, any affiliation with Mark and his company these days tends to look shady - and Mark's absurd attempts at concealment (The Audio Design Groupe) don't help matters.

I have attempted several times to garner some business with AV123 since we're in the electronics-making business and always looking for additional opportunities. With MLS having troubles with overseas production I thought I'd give it a shot. As of yet nothing has come to fruition but a couple upbeat phone discussions (the last one close to new year's if I recall correctly).

As near as I can tell, you and your company have been fortunate that nothing more came of your phone calls. It's possible that he felt your company was too well-established to give him the wiggle-room to manipulate, negotiate unfair contracts, or swindle effectively enough to gain him anything. Others seem to have been less fortunate and actually ended up in a business relationship that left them owed significant money.

So far, AV123 has continued to show no signs of turning over a new leaf. The LS-4 remains "coming soon" more than a month after the first units were supposed to ship to customers. The G2 Rockets remain nothing more than empty, unfinished MDF mock-ups and vague promises. The ELT525 line, X-Electronics, and their new tube amp are all discontinued, with not a peep from the company about any of it. Their website still doesn't have a manual for the MFW15, several years after the sub was released and at least six months after talk from Mark about a "99% complete" manual. Emails keep going out about amazing new sales, even though most offer little or no savings over regular prices (such as the "$0.97 shipping sale" that was accompanied by a $100 price increase on the seemingly bottomless reservoir of B-stock MFW15's and similar price increases on other offerings included in the sale). And all the while, they continue to run their forum with unwritten "scorched earth" moderation policies that suppress the realities of the situation - leading to threads like this one in which people seem to honestly have no idea why the forum looks like a ghost town. And of course by deleting all of Mark's posts (somewhere around 15,000+ in all) and all the threads he started, they have scrubbed out many of the threads that could shed some light on the situation but that had otherwise survived earlier purges.

I'm as interested as everyone else here to follow the legal proceedings that are ongoing. I don't check for updates here but maybe twice a month, but I'm still following things. I just keep my own opinions more to myself these days.

As I've said before, each of us has to decide how we feel about the company and how much we want to say about our feelings. Mark's actions have inflicted some very real pain on a lot of people in this community, though, and he has habitually deceived even more people - some could say he's habitually deceived the entire audio/video community for years now. That adds up to a lot of very angry people. As a result of that anger, the subject is likely to generate some very "pointed" discussion in the forum that allow such discussion. Many companies that are not affiliated with AV123 have largely restricted such discussion because of the hard feelings that quickly come to the surface.

Personally, I am curious to see the outcome of the legal proceedings, because I feel that Mark's actions are profoundly disturbing and demand some punishment, but I know that I'll never have a full picture of what transpired. In the meanwhile, this thread remains the closest thing to a fair and open summary as exists. It may veer off a bit at times, in large part because the many falsehoods that have been pitched out by the company itself make it perilously difficult to find any sort of actual truth. Your post, however much it might have bothered you to have to write it, helps provide some bit of truth.

 

[Chu Gai]

Hmmm... I visit here periodically to follow along the legal proceedings just like everyone else ... just don't post here much. Then I see a post with my name referenced in it, so I decide to do a search in the thread for my name.. And now I find over the past months there have been multiple liberties taken with my name.

If you've been following the legal proceedings then you know at his last court date he had finally retained a lawyer and his next court date is June 29th. So, really if you wanted to follow the legal proceedings you could just wait until shortly after that date to either read about it here or pick up your finger and dial the court clerk herself for an update. Or you could just call that pathetic excuse for a human being and get his side.

And really. What is this sh!t about liberties taken with your name? Suddenly you've become sensitive about what's been said? Jeez, I expect that from naive, impressionable, insecure teens, not an adult.

I find it interesting (and a bit sad) that since everything started months ago, not one single person on any of the forums I belong to has ever privately (or publicly, that I have seen) come to me for "my side of the story." What anyone thinks about me is up to them, I'm not out for a fight, and everybody who has ever read my posts knows that. But don't go thinking that I or the company I work for are related to TADG or anything else.

If you've got something to say, then man up and say it. This is what I think, Dane. I don't believe you work for TADG, AV451, or Humbly Bumbly Associates. To me, your next writings, suggest to me that you are naive and foolish.

The truth of the matter is that I work for a small engineering services company located in Huntsville, Alabama called Lewis Innovative Technologies, Inc. (website www . lewisinnovative . com, minus the spaces since I have less than 5 posts here)

You have stated that already at Bumbly's forum.

I have attempted several times to garner some business with AV123 since we're in the electronics-making business and always looking for additional opportunities. With MLS having troubles with overseas production I thought I'd give it a shot. As of yet nothing has come to fruition but a couple upbeat phone discussions (the last one close to new year's if I recall correctly). Here at LIT we have many successful millitary and commercial designs both completed and in the works, including the very successful PFOM (Patriot Fiber Optic Modem -- yes, Patriot as in the missle system). To attempt an link LIT and MLS or AV123 is an excercise in complete futility. No one else at LIT has ever spoken or corresponded with MLS or AV123, and to think I am some part of their design group (or 'groupe') is just silly.

For what possible reason would you want to put your name on the line and involve your company with that crook? Not only did he scam hundreds of people with the raffles Dane, he tried to avoid repaying people that he borrowed 10's and 100's of thousands of dollars. He sold speakers to people he didn't have and kept the money. He screwed Pu out of a million. He screwed Santiago. Sean Parque had to sue him to get what he was owed. I'm stunned and disgusted that you -YOU - knowing that he has phucked the very community you were a part of, would even entertain the thought of doing business with him! Given the opportunity, he would've screwed your company and severely compromised whatever standing you have with them. In the face of all this business information, you showed incredibly pathetic business judgment. That you attempted to get something going indicates you've betrayed the remnants of the AV451 community and have next to no integrity. What other people do is their business, but me, I shun you.

Interestingly, although the search tool here yields plenty of hits to my name, clicking the links to those posts do not work-- maybe those posts were deleted? I don't know.

Yeah, you're really interested in the legal proceedings. The search function here doesn't work properly and you may have to go back or ahead a couple of pages.

I know this is probably the last thread to ask for some respect, but come on guys. If anyone can stand up and tell me they have an honest beef with me, let's hear it. Otherwise, please give me a little more respect than tossing my name around so flippantly.

You've read my beef above. I've said more or less the same thing anytime I've mentioned your name. You want some respect? Walk away from that disease ridden forum. Stop seeing Shifty the way you want to see him and see him for what he is. A pathetic excuse for a human being that will exploit anyone and anything so long as he can avoid paying them back. He's a scammer and a liar. He belongs out of this industry. Realize what an utterly stupid thing you did trying to assist him and that it also constituted a slap in the face of everyone that used to belong to AV451.

To be clear, this sub was sent to me over a year ago when MLS was considering having the company I work for diagnose the problem. In the end they decided to scrap that amp design, and the sub sat in my office.. A year or more later, while trying to raise money to upgrade my HT, I called and asked if they wanted it back and they said no. So, having two bad amps at my disposal I went for some "lowest hanging fruit" to try and get a single plate amp working again to sell the amp and continue with my HT upgrade.

Long story short, I felt it was less hassle and more reliable to use the same Dayton SA240 plate amp that is currently being used for warantee replacements. There is apparently a small mod to the Dayton amp that is recommended (though I'm not sure if it's entirely necessary), I am waiting to hear back from Kyle regarding that mod. I have a local buyer for the sub who is fully aware of all the goings on.

Just before the local buyer agreed to the Dayton solution, I considered attempting to sell the remaining pieces in the thread quoted above...

I'm as interested as everyone else here to follow the legal proceedings that are ongoing. I don't check for updates here but maybe twice a month, but I'm still following things. I just keep my own opinions more to myself these days.

cheers,
..dane

To say I'm disappointed in you is an understatement Dane. I wish you no personal harm but man if anybody has to wake up and smell the coffee it's you.

 

[geekinthehood]

Chu, you are way out of line on this one.

Everyone who dealt with MLS had their trust violated, some more than others. That's a deep wound - in some ways worse than losing money to him. The loss of money may give people a legal tool to go after him, and it also gives legitimacy to our public grievances with MLS, but it's the violation of trust that really hurts.

Some of us, myself included, really thought Mark Schifter was someone we could trust. So much so that when others showed us reality, we chose to go with our human need to trust someone we thought we knew. Yes, we could've trusted the people who were ringing alarm bells about MLS, but the totality of what they were saying was too much.

Think about it for a moment: We weren't just asked to believe that Mark had stolen our money, we were asked to believe that he wasn't the person we thought we knew. Sure, Mark hadn't changed, but in our minds it was as if someone had killed the Mark we knew and replaced him with a sociopath. To make it even worse, it was Mark who killed the Mark we knew and trusted.

Many of us who knew or dealt with Mark Schifter have two sets of memories of him: One that we remember fondly, when he represented hope in mankind, and the other more recent memories, when he's a sociopath who exists for no other reason than to feed off our trust. That's hard to reconcile.

Everyone deals with this grief and anger in their own way. Me, I've been mostly silent. Were it not for this thread and a couple others like it, I probably wouldn't have voiced my opinion. Others have made it a mission to tell the world. I'm fine with that. In fact, I'm grateful - were it not for them, the world wouldn't know, and Mark would still be feeding off our trust.

You are absolutely right when you say that Dane was lucky his company didn't get any "business" from AV123, but to imply that he wanted to sacrifice the company he works for and his standing in it for MLS??? Other than a few unhappy customers and some rumblings about the raffles, none of that was public knowledge when Dane was trying to get MLS to work with his company. All that most of us saw was that AV123 was having lots of problems with their electronics, and they wanted desperately to fix those problems. That may not have been reality, but that's what we knew at the time.

Then you run off the rails and say that he's "betrayed the remnants of the AV451 community and [has] next to no integrity."

Chu, I appreciate what you did with all your detective work and warnings for those who would listen. I'm not clear on your motives, but that doesn't matter right now - Mark needed to be brought down, and you did it.

In regards to this message, though, I think you're way wrong. Seriously. You might know the money stories, but there are hundreds of stories involving trust, too. They're all different, and you know only a few of them.

 

[subdude]

I have attempted several times to garner some business with AV123 since we're in the electronics-making business and always looking for additional opportunities. With MLS having troubles with overseas production I thought I'd give it a shot. As of yet nothing has come to fruition but a couple upbeat phone discussions (the last one close to new year's if I recall correctly).

There's no way you didn't know he was a crook in December 2009. I knew by summer 2009 because there's so much info on this out there I found out by accident. I'm seriously concerned that a company that deals with national defense issues would even consider partnering with a criminal and con artist. That kind of judgement call really worries me and I hope it's an isolated brain fart on your part. Seriously dude, you make some real important stuff - why risk messing it up by partnering with a confessed criminal?

PFOM (Patriot Fiber Optic Modem -- yes, Patriot as in the missle system).

Is that so we can surf the web while waiting for the enemy to explode? awesome!

 

[subdude]

Sure, Mark hadn't changed, but in our minds it was as if someone had killed the Mark we knew and replaced him with a sociopath. To make it even worse, it was Mark who killed the Mark we knew and trusted.

Anyone else have flashbacks of Obi Wan telling Luke "[Darth Vadar] betrayed and murdered your father” when they read this?
[URL=http://www.millan.net][/URL]

Obi Wan's defense when challenged with the truth by Luke later is eerily similar to what MLS would say about the vaporware, raffles, and lies from the past 3 years:

"So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."

 

[gonk]

I had the exact same thought.

Maybe we could offer a new slogan for AV123 to put on their boxes: "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

 

[Jed M]

Other than a few unhappy customers and some rumblings about the raffles, none of that was public knowledge when Dane was trying to get MLS to work with his company. All that most of us saw was that AV123 was having lots of problems with their electronics, and they wanted desperately to fix those problems. That may not have been reality, but that's what we knew at the time.

Geek,
I could be wrong but I remember shortly after Mark was indicted and Dane insisted that his name was taken off the indictment (like that was even possible) he claimed a week or so later that he was still in talks with Suzanne to get their "project" started. Dane wanted to do business with Mark even after the truth had come out and even after everybody knew about the grand jury indictment. Dane still wouldn't believe (and I think he still doesn't believe) that Mark is the person that everybody else told him. In that regard, he did shun our community and take sides with the predator/criminal. There are just a very small handful of people I think really, really showed major disrespect for the real victims in this process and unfortunately for Dane he is one of them. Outside of this Dane seems like a really nice, decent guy but he is seriously off base on Mark, and to such a degree that he is insulting/hurting everybody that was taken by Mark. That is just my opinion.

 

[randyb]

Chu, you are way out of line on this one.

Everyone who dealt with MLS had their trust violated, some more than others. That's a deep wound - in some ways worse than losing money to him. The loss of money may give people a legal tool to go after him, and it also gives legitimacy to our public grievances with MLS, but it's the violation of trust that really hurts.

Some of us, myself included, really thought Mark Schifter was someone we could trust. So much so that when others showed us reality, we chose to go with our human need to trust someone we thought we knew. Yes, we could've trusted the people who were ringing alarm bells about MLS, but the totality of what they were saying was too much.

Think about it for a moment: We weren't just asked to believe that Mark had stolen our money, we were asked to believe that he wasn't the person we thought we knew. Sure, Mark hadn't changed, but in our minds it was as if someone had killed the Mark we knew and replaced him with a sociopath. To make it even worse, it was Mark who killed the Mark we knew and trusted.

Many of us who knew or dealt with Mark Schifter have two sets of memories of him: One that we remember fondly, when he represented hope in mankind, and the other more recent memories, when he's a sociopath who exists for no other reason than to feed off our trust. That's hard to reconcile.

Everyone deals with this grief and anger in their own way. Me, I've been mostly silent. Were it not for this thread and a couple others like it, I probably wouldn't have voiced my opinion. Others have made it a mission to tell the world. I'm fine with that. In fact, I'm grateful - were it not for them, the world wouldn't know, and Mark would still be feeding off our trust.

You are absolutely right when you say that Dane was lucky his company didn't get any "business" from AV123, but to imply that he wanted to sacrifice the company he works for and his standing in it for MLS??? Other than a few unhappy customers and some rumblings about the raffles, none of that was public knowledge when Dane was trying to get MLS to work with his company. All that most of us saw was that AV123 was having lots of problems with their electronics, and they wanted desperately to fix those problems. That may not have been reality, but that's what we knew at the time.

Then you run off the rails and say that he's "betrayed the remnants of the AV451 community and [has] next to no integrity."

Chu, I appreciate what you did with all your detective work and warnings for those who would listen. I'm not clear on your motives, but that doesn't matter right now - Mark needed to be brought down, and you did it.

In regards to this message, though, I think you're way wrong. Seriously. You might know the money stories, but there are hundreds of stories involving trust, too. They're all different, and you know only a few of them.

I don't think people should feel grief about MLS. That, to me, is not the proper reaction at all. They should be pissed like Chu. I don't get the grief thing. Let's face it, he conned you and Chu helped bring it to light. How does he con you, he gets you to trust him. Those that he can't get their trust are quickly ignored. I think the people in the industry who knew him well, knew this a long time ago, even before AV321.

 

[Jed M]

I don't think people should feel grief about MLS. That, to me, is not the proper reaction at all. They should be pissed like Chu. I don't get the grief thing. Let's face it, he conned you and Chu helped bring it to light. How does he con you, he gets you to trust him. Those that he can't get their trust are quickly ignored. I think the people in the industry who knew him well, knew this a long time ago, even before AV321.

I understand where Geek is coming from. Yeah, I did get pissed as people can see, but I also felt like somebody I knew did in fact die. It was very bittersweet. Its a really hard thing to accept if you have ever had your trust completely used against you. Its like opening your eyes and everything you knew is the exact opposite. It is just like getting water dumped on you to wake you up and it takes a while to gain your bearings. It took my heart longer to really accept the truth, even though my mind was telling me months before.

 

[Chu Gai]

Chu, you are way out of line on this one.

I appreciate the contrary opinion, but I don't think so.

Everyone who dealt with MLS had their trust violated, some more than others. That's a deep wound - in some ways worse than losing money to him. The loss of money may give people a legal tool to go after him, and it also gives legitimacy to our public grievances with MLS, but it's the violation of trust that really hurts.

I completely agree with you.

Some of us, myself included, really thought Mark Schifter was someone we could trust. So much so that when others showed us reality, we chose to go with our human need to trust someone we thought we knew. Yes, we could've trusted the people who were ringing alarm bells about MLS, but the totality of what they were saying was too much.

And I agree with that too.

Think about it for a moment: We weren't just asked to believe that Mark had stolen our money, we were asked to believe that he wasn't the person we thought we knew. Sure, Mark hadn't changed, but in our minds it was as if someone had killed the Mark we knew and replaced him with a sociopath. To make it even worse, it was Mark who killed the Mark we knew and trusted.

No issue with that either. Mark is a despicable person on any number of considerations. People can point to his generosity in some cases, but that generosity always came at the expense of of someone else.

Many of us who knew or dealt with Mark Schifter have two sets of memories of him: One that we remember fondly, when he represented hope in mankind, and the other more recent memories, when he's a sociopath who exists for no other reason than to feed off our trust. That's hard to reconcile.

You bet it is!

Everyone deals with this grief and anger in their own way. Me, I've been mostly silent. Were it not for this thread and a couple others like it, I probably wouldn't have voiced my opinion. Others have made it a mission to tell the world. I'm fine with that. In fact, I'm grateful - were it not for them, the world wouldn't know, and Mark would still be feeding off our trust.

Hard to say but you can only burn so many companies before nobody of any significance will do business with you.

You are absolutely right when you say that Dane was lucky his company didn't get any "business" from AV123, but to imply that he wanted to sacrifice the company he works for and his standing in it for MLS??? Other than a few unhappy customers and some rumblings about the raffles, none of that was public knowledge when Dane was trying to get MLS to work with his company. All that most of us saw was that AV123 was having lots of problems with their electronics, and they wanted desperately to fix those problems. That may not have been reality, but that's what we knew at the time.

You're misreading what I wrote above. I'm not saying that he wanted to sacrifice his company. I'm saying a few things.

• He knew about the raffle business and that the shenanigans extended beyond the one's Mark admitted to.
• He knew about the RSL-II prepays and how no one got their money back or a product.
• He knew about similar matters with the LS-9's and 6's.
• He knew people weren't getting refunds.
• He knew about the fellow who paid Mark for speakers that were supposed to come but never did from the supposed friend of his that was supposed to be going through a divorce.
• He knew about how Mark and others mocked Jongaro's situation by having a sale in his name.
• He has seen the deletion of posts and the banning of members.

He knew that and more late in the game that has temporarily culminated in the indictments that came public late in February of this year.

Now, by his own statements, Dane has stated that he has made multiple attempts to involve his company in business dealings with Mark. You might excuse it if it were only one done some time ago. But repeated attempts to engage his company with Mark shows incredibly poor business judgment in light of the information available.

Then you run off the rails and say that he's "betrayed the remnants of the AV451 community and [has] next to no integrity."

That's right. If you know all that's happened and you're the one looking to repeatedly engage Mark in business relationships, then I see it as a betrayal. The friend of my enemy is in essence my enemy. How many pieces of silver does it take to in essence turn your back on those you were friends with?

Chu, I appreciate what you did with all your detective work and warnings for those who would listen. I'm not clear on your motives, but that doesn't matter right now - Mark needed to be brought down, and you did it.

He's not brought down yet. Even if a plea deal is brought forth, he'll still have to pay restitution. But that monetary restitution is actually a small part of what Mark and AV451 actually owe money wise. There are others who have and are pursuing means to recoup their monies through the civil legal system. They'll be the ones who finally bring him down and in any way that I can help see that happen, I'll assist. If he lives to be a hundred, he'll never finish off paying everything that's owed. May he live even a longer life.

In regards to this message, though, I think you're way wrong. Seriously. You might know the money stories, but there are hundreds of stories involving trust, too. They're all different, and you know only a few of them.

I know of 800 or so stories that involve trust and betrayal. I know of others too just as you do. Dane also knows of them and sought to do business with him. He has posted on his forum and in a small way that lends a stamp of credulity to it. That's betrayal in my book and I'm not saying it behind his back.

 

[randyb]

I understand where Geek is coming from. Yeah, I did get pissed as people can see, but I also felt like somebody I knew did in fact die. It was very bittersweet. Its a really hard thing to accept if you have ever had your trust completely used against you. Its like opening your eyes and everything you knew is the exact opposite. It is just like getting water dumped on you to wake you up and it takes a while to gain your bearings. It took my heart longer to really accept the truth, even though my mind was telling me months before.

I guess I understand. I guess I am just a hard-***. Right now, I have been betrayed by someone on these forums and we had a contract. At some point, I am not going to grieve, I am going to get a phucking lawyer or call in Vito.

 

[MinusTheBear]

The better business bureau has once again dinged AV123 rating. The customer complaint history has been updated and can be seen here.

http://www.bbb.org/denver/business-reviews/home-theater/av123-in-longmont-co-90099820

 

[Chu Gai]

Geek,
I could be wrong but I remember shortly after Mark was indicted and Dane insisted that his name was taken off the indictment (like that was even possible) he claimed a week or so later that he was still in talks with Suzanne to get their "project" started. Dane wanted to do business with Mark even after the truth had come out and even after everybody knew about the grand jury indictment. Dane still wouldn't believe (and I think he still doesn't believe) that Mark is the person that everybody else told him. In that regard, he did shun our community and take sides with the predator/criminal. There are just a very small handful of people I think really, really showed major disrespect for the real victims in this process and unfortunately for Dane he is one of them. Outside of this Dane seems like a really nice, decent guy but he is seriously off base on Mark, and to such a degree that he is insulting/hurting everybody that was taken by Mark. That is just my opinion.

I too recall the posts - since deleted - where a few people rose up and took strong, vocal offense having to do with not given permission to use their names. How does one interpret that position? Does one say that if they'd been asked they'd have declined? Does one say that a desire to not want to take a stand on the other side of the scam implies they condone it in some fashion? To me, those are enabling positions and indicate just on what side of the community you're on. For sure there is gray in the world. There is also right and wrong and I leave it to people like the honcho at Secrets to strive to paint it gray. Your concerns apart from looking to help Mark out were more about wondering about me and my motives. You should have turned your wondering eye towards Colorado instead.

 

[Mac11700]

Chu, you are way out of line on this one.

Everyone who dealt with MLS had their trust violated, some more than others. That's a deep wound - in some ways worse than losing money to him. The loss of money may give people a legal tool to go after him, and it also gives legitimacy to our public grievances with MLS, but it's the violation of trust that really hurts.

Some of us, myself included, really thought Mark Schifter was someone we could trust. So much so that when others showed us reality, we chose to go with our human need to trust someone we thought we knew. Yes, we could've trusted the people who were ringing alarm bells about MLS, but the totality of what they were saying was too much.

Think about it for a moment: We weren't just asked to believe that Mark had stolen our money, we were asked to believe that he wasn't the person we thought we knew. Sure, Mark hadn't changed, but in our minds it was as if someone had killed the Mark we knew and replaced him with a sociopath. To make it even worse, it was Mark who killed the Mark we knew and trusted.

Many of us who knew or dealt with Mark Schifter have two sets of memories of him: One that we remember fondly, when he represented hope in mankind, and the other more recent memories, when he's a sociopath who exists for no other reason than to feed off our trust. That's hard to reconcile.

Everyone deals with this grief and anger in their own way. Me, I've been mostly silent. Were it not for this thread and a couple others like it, I probably wouldn't have voiced my opinion. Others have made it a mission to tell the world. I'm fine with that. In fact, I'm grateful - were it not for them, the world wouldn't know, and Mark would still be feeding off our trust.

You are absolutely right when you say that Dane was lucky his company didn't get any "business" from AV123, but to imply that he wanted to sacrifice the company he works for and his standing in it for MLS??? Other than a few unhappy customers and some rumblings about the raffles, none of that was public knowledge when Dane was trying to get MLS to work with his company. All that most of us saw was that AV123 was having lots of problems with their electronics, and they wanted desperately to fix those problems. That may not have been reality, but that's what we knew at the time.

Then you run off the rails and say that he's "betrayed the remnants of the AV451 community and [has] next to no integrity."

Chu, I appreciate what you did with all your detective work and warnings for those who would listen. I'm not clear on your motives, but that doesn't matter right now - Mark needed to be brought down, and you did it.

In regards to this message, though, I think you're way wrong. Seriously. You might know the money stories, but there are hundreds of stories involving trust, too. They're all different, and you know only a few of them.

You are initialed to your opinion that Chu is wrong naturally,but to say he ran off the rails by saying,Mark betrayed the remnants of the AV451 community and [has] next to no integrity." ,is a pretty damn fair assessment of how most people feel,and exactly how I feel.

Simple logic

If it waddles like a duck,quacks like a duck,looks like a duck,it most likely is a duck.Therefore,if you are a CEO of a well known ID audio company with ties to manufacturers,retailers,and industry leaders, and whom regularly participates on various public forums including his own, telling anyone and everyone just how much good you have done for other people including but not limited to active duty servicemen and women, various national charities in need desperate need, or perhaps orphans and foreign orphanages,3rd world citizens, who jus happen to work building speakers and subs for you company, and then you purposely ask for money,you go on your company owned forum and you send out a pleas for help for these organizations and individuals by soliciting money in the form of raffles from your current and past forum members,you offer your company products as bait to lure folks into showing their generosity,their compassion,their good nature, then you flat out lie to them,cheat them,and steal from these people whom you call your friends or your family and whom many if not all are your customers. You then lie and steal and falsely raise the hopes of these other charities and organizations, from the sick and dying friends of people you have the audacity to call " My Brother" and also from other customers whom were also called family,these people with gravely ill children and very large medical bills,then you really don't have any integrity,and most likely never had any to begin with and also that you have betrayed your own friends family and customers along with any current or former forum members and also the audio community as a whole

Do you really think he is off track in his assessment ? I don't

Mac

 

[Chu Gai]

The better business bureau has once again dinged AV123 rating. The customer complaint history has been updated and can be seen here.

http://www.bbb.org/denver/business-reviews/home-theater/av123-in-longmont-co-90099820

For those who haven't read the entire link, note the following:

Licensing

Many local municipalities, townships, and counties have registration, bonding and/or licensing requirements. The BBB encourages you to check with the appropriate agency to be certain any requirements are currently being met.

Permit and license requirements for regulated industries in the state of Colorado can be viewed at the following website: http://www.colorado.gov/oed/industry-license/

Customer Complaint History

When considering complaint information, please take into account the company's size and volume of transactions, and understand that the nature of complaints and a firm's responses to them are often more important than the number of complaints.

BBB processed a total of 2 complaints about this company in the last 36 months, our standard reporting period. Of the total of 2 complaints closed in 36 months, 2 were closed in the last year.

These complaints concerned :
+ 2 regarding Refund or Exchange Issues

These complaints were closed as:
+ 1 Resolved
+ 1 Unresolved


Government Actions

BBB has no information regarding government actions at this time.

I think it's time that the BBB be given appropriate links to what government actions are being taken. I also think the whole licensing thing needs to be explored too.