DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[droht]

You still have to love some of the cult members fighting back:

The indictment indicates 707 victims.... where is that list of names?

I, for one, do not give my permission for my name to be used in a court of law against Mark Schifter.

I'll catch a lot of flak for that from certain people, and that's fine.

You are one of a kind Dane! What kind I don't know; and don't want to know...


click here for a direct look at the nonsense

 

[mhawker]

Do they hang people in Colorado for charity fraud?

I'm laughing at the support he's still receiving.

 

[droht]

How soon until the prison woodshop is retooled and cranking out LS cabinets? With prison labor we'll probably see pre-orders for $999.

 

[quadriverfalls]

How soon until the prison woodshop is retooled and cranking out LS cabinets? With prison labor we'll probably see pre-orders for $999.

That's almost funny in a sadistic kind of way Dean. As for Dane.... I don't think he understands something.... The Attorney General of Colorado doesn't NEED his permission to use his name on/in the indictment. I like Dane a LOT and I know I've received my fair share of heat for my quasi support of Mark through all of this.... but WOW, I think Dane had a bit too much of the communion wine prior to that response.

 

[MinusTheBear]

The USA Today has even picked up this story with a link of one of the news articles. Its gone national....crazy stuff.

http://content.usatoday.com/topics/article/Organizations/Non-profits,+Activist+Groups/American+Red+Cross/0eYR3zD7IU4si/1

 

[Zaluss]

Mark's been arrested. This probably doesn't spell the end for AV123 but hopefully the end of MLS.

 

[Chu Gai]

Bail should be no problem whatsoever although I don't know what it is yet. All that has to be done is issue some store credits, some limited edition, signed B-Stock Moho Satin MFW's, and get some RSL-II prepays from the guards and inmates.

Me I think it's largely the end of AV451. Now, what I find interesting is who hasn't been arrested or charged. The employees, past and present, I'm quite certain they knew nothing about the raffles. They were just victims in their own right.

Made With Pride And Passion In The Boulder County Jail.

 

[Chu Gai]

If I read and interpret the various counts correctly,

Count One is a Class 3 Felony
Count Two is a Class 5 Felony
Count Three is a Class 5 Felony
Count Four is a Class 3 Felony
Count Five is at least a Class 2 Misdemeanor however since "...the underlying factual basis of the violaiton constitutes a crime as defined by any other provision of the law, then such person may be charged, prosecuted, and punished in accordance with such other provision of the law." I read that as some sort of Felony charge.​

The following are the various Felonies, minimum, and maximum sentences.

Felony
Minimum Sentence
Maximum Sentence

Class 1
Life imprisonment
Death

Class 2
8 years / 5,000 dollar fine
24 years / 1,000,000 dollar fine

Class 3
4 years / 3,000 dollar fine
12 years / 750,000 dollar fine

Class 4
2 years / 2,000 dollar fine
6 years / 500,000 dollar fine

Class 5
1 year / 1,000 dollar fine
3 years / 100,000 dollar fine

Class 6
1 year / 1, 000 dollar fine
18 months / 100,000 dollar fine

Misdemeanor

Class 1
6 months / 500 dollar fine or both
18 months / 5,000 dollar fine or both

Class 2
3 months / 250 dollar fine or both
1 year / 1,000 dollar fine or both

Class 3
Fifty dollar fine
6 months / 750 dollar fine or both

 

[GirgleMirt]

If I read and interpret the various counts correctly,

Count One is a Class 3 Felony
Count Two is a Class 5 Felony
Count Three is a Class 5 Felony
Count Four is a Class 3 Felony
Count Five is at least a Class 2 Misdemeanor however since "...the underlying factual basis of the violaiton constitutes a crime as defined by any other provision of the law, then such person may be charged, prosecuted, and punished in accordance with such other provision of the law." I read that as some sort of Felony charge.​

The following are the various Felonies, minimum, and maximum sentences.

Felony
Minimum Sentence
Maximum Sentence

Class 1
Life imprisonment
Death

Class 2
8 years / 5,000 dollar fine
24 years / 1,000,000 dollar fine

Class 3
4 years / 3,000 dollar fine
12 years / 750,000 dollar fine

Class 4
2 years / 2,000 dollar fine
6 years / 500,000 dollar fine

Class 5
1 year / 1,000 dollar fine
3 years / 100,000 dollar fine

Class 6
1 year / 1, 000 dollar fine
18 months / 100,000 dollar fine

Misdemeanor

Class 1
6 months / 500 dollar fine or both
18 months / 5,000 dollar fine or both

Class 2
3 months / 250 dollar fine or both
1 year / 1,000 dollar fine or both

Class 3
Fifty dollar fine
6 months / 750 dollar fine or both

Thanks for that Chu! Do these stack? I hope he gets it good... Is there any word on the trial date? Does this usually take months or should we see a trial some time soon? I would sure hope some would be able to attend the trial and get some kind of photos posted...

 

[Chu Gai]

I doubt they'd run consecutively. The fines though might add up for each plus there'll be court costs, required restitution (not sure how the house figures into that), legal fees, and mandatory jail time. I don't know, really I don't, if he can cop a plea but I don't see every charge getting knocked down to a misdemeanor but then stranger things have happened for first offenders. While I'm speculating here, I'd be surprised if an insider doesn't go for immunity in exchange for testifying. 'Course, I could be wrong.

There is no truth to the rumor that he will be forced to pay $100 for each time he says Humbly.

 

[quadriverfalls]

The REAL sad part and losers here.... are whatever funds can be recovered will now go to the blood sucking lawyers, court costs, fines etc. Those will all come before any restitution I'm sure. So all of those that were due monies from this are now fully and finally screwed.

So while many of you are popping Champaign corks and loving every minute of this.... there are some who are going to, in the end.... be hurt far more than MLS. Of course, it could be argued that the raffles may have never been fully "funded." But with AV123 most likely to crash and burn (or if it stays in business - it most likely will be without MLS).... there isn't a chance in Hell a new owner will reach deep in their pockets to fund these raffles.

I just see this as a lose, lose, lose situation for ALL that are involved.

 

[Tex-amp]

The court will order restitution. The victims are far more likely to see compensation that way than by MLS just doing it on his own. We know he's already been telling people he paid off the "under funding." Plus, hopefully, he won't be able to ripoff any more people.

What MLS did is a crime, please stop thinking like a battered wife about the dude.

 

[woofersus]

The REAL sad part and losers here.... are whatever funds can be recovered will now go to the blood sucking lawyers, court costs, fines etc. Those will all come before any restitution I'm sure. So all of those that were due monies from this are now fully and finally screwed.

So while many of you are popping Champaign corks and loving every minute of this.... there are some who are going to, in the end.... be hurt far more than MLS. Of course, it could be argued that the raffles may have never been fully "funded." But with AV123 most likely to crash and burn (or if it stays in business - it most likely will be without MLS).... there isn't a chance in Hell a new owner will reach deep in their pockets to fund these raffles.

I just see this as a lose, lose, lose situation for ALL that are involved.

True, nobody wins. However, it is a victory that he won't rip off anybody else. (if convicted) Let's face it, those raffles were never going to be "fully funded." He never admitted that any but 2 were ever "underfunded," and at least one of them I know has not been getting any payments toward the balance. Even since the "new and improved" av123 emerged earlier this year he has screwed over more people and made no attempt other than lip service toward making any restitution. I think the best possible outcome is a new owner, (although I don't see it likely) because then at least the people owed product might get what's owed to them.

I do feel bad for those with lawsuits pending that may see him left with nothing after the criminal case. He ripped off some people for a lot more than the amount listed in that indictment, and some have no recourse whatsoever because they're overseas.

Lastly, but certainly least, I feel sorry for me. Aside from the $150 or so I contributed to raffles, I've been wanting to ditch my av123 speakers for some time but haven't been able to afford replacements as resale value was in the toilet. Now I'm sure to take a wash.

 

[gonk]

The whole situation is a shame, and has been for years now. I think that the likelihood of refunds being issued probably just went down, and the likelihood of business associates with money owed to them being repaid just went down, but the odds of charities getting at least some of the money probably increased a bit. Odds still aren't great, mind you, but I don't know that they could have gotten much lower than they were earlier this week. After all, even a year or more after public pressure to deal with the raffles began (and years after even the most recent thefts), there seems to have been no actual progress toward repayment.

Much has already been said about the fact that Mark has been indicted on charges and given an undesirable tour of Boulder's jail, but we haven't said a lot about the implecations of the numbers in the indictment. I looked back at some numbers I'd compiled last fall, when I was still on AV123's forum. At the time, we had confirmation of about $15,000 in raffle proceeds that were delivered (half of that to BNC and the rest split between Sloan Kettering and Derek). Mark had been pretty adamant that he had only underfunded two raffles, and he separately acknowledged that SK and Derek were the two recipients who were owed money. Between the two of them, he owed between $30,000 and $31,000. If we assume that the attorney general has done his homework (and the grand jury seemed to think that he had), Mark had stolen roughly five times as much money as had been acknowledged. That's roughly 83% of all donations that passed through his hands over the course of more than four years. That simple bit of math is, at least for me, perhaps the most damning part of this whole fiasco. No matter how sincere Mark seemed - or even how sincere he thought he really was, if he was deluding himself too - it would seem that he has been playing a great many people for fools for a painfully long time.

 

[GirgleMirt]

The REAL sad part and losers here.... are whatever funds can be recovered will now go to the blood sucking lawyers, court costs, fines etc. Those will all come before any restitution I'm sure. So all of those that were due monies from this are now fully and finally screwed.

You really think that's the real sad part? Are you not seeing the elephant in the corner? Hint: Elephant = Schifty screwing all these people...

So while many of you are popping Champaign corks and loving every minute of this.... there are some who are going to, in the end.... be hurt far more than MLS. Of course, it could be argued that the raffles may have never been fully "funded." But with AV123 most likely to crash and burn (or if it stays in business - it most likely will be without MLS).... there isn't a chance in Hell a new owner will reach deep in their pockets to fund these raffles.

I just see this as a lose, lose, lose situation for ALL that are involved.

That was already the Status quo. This was done by MLS, and for months, years even, people who have always been supportive of MLS are more the issue than anybody else celebrating today. Hell, how many were attacked for even doubting the greatness of this man? The celebration, if there is cause for that, is because one man is being brought to justice for his crimes. In any circumstances, those who have been wronged have been wronged by MLS, and restitution was highly unlikely. The tragedy here has nothing to do with lawyers, courts, retribution, it's how one man's actions has wronged so many people.

As Tex put so eloquently, don't cast MLS as a victim here. It's absolutely ridiculous and even offending to do so.

And I honestly believe that him being brought to justice is the best thing which could happen, for pretty much anyone involved... If in fact it doesn't benefit some, then the blame isn't on those who did what was necessary to bring this man to justice, but again, squarely on the shoulders of Schifty, who's to blame for everything here. Scary how some want to cast him as the victim... Oh he's old.. He's sick... Give me a break. He wasn't too old and too sick to screw all these people, he shouldn't be too old and too sick for the consequences either.

 

[Stereodude]

The REAL sad part and losers here.... are whatever funds can be recovered will now go to the blood sucking lawyers, court costs, fines etc. Those will all come before any restitution I'm sure. So all of those that were due monies from this are now fully and finally screwed.

...

I just see this as a lose, lose, lose situation for ALL that are involved.

Quad, no offense, but I think you're looking at this the wrong way. It's been a lose, lose, lose situation from the minute MLS was unable to fully fund the first raffle and then held another one. It seems pretty clear this was intentionally done, not an accident. He kept running raffle after raffle for years knowing he wasn't going to send the money the stated recipient. That money was "lost" the minute it entered his paypal account.

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that MLS was going to make it right no matter how much time he was given. After all, he still claimed it was only two raffles that were "underfunded" even when it was known that it was way more than two. On top of that I didn't see him taking the steps of someone who really wanted to clear his name. Per his own claims (unverified) he and his wife had their hands in piles of other businesses that were quite lucrative. Couldn't they have taken the profits from those other ventures and funded his shortfall? Regardless, I didn't see him selling his house(s) and his assets (cars, watches, pens, etc) to try go cover his obligations either.

 

[m-fine]

The REAL sad part and losers here.... are whatever funds can be recovered will now go to the blood sucking lawyers, court costs, fines etc. Those will all come before any restitution I'm sure. So all of those that were due monies from this are now fully and finally screwed.

John, I decided not to call the authorities a long time ago because of this thinking, but now I know that was a huge and costly mistake. Mark had no intention of paying out the charity money, and yet another "one more year" with "big changes" was not going to make a damn bit of difference. This started in 2004! The guy was flying around the globe, driving a Porsche, living the good life for 4+ years after he started taking this money.

Even after it came to light, he has been dishonest and in no way remorseful. He eventually admitted to two "underfunded raffles" even when we knew of at least 4 he had stolen from. He said he was going to pay them what they were owed. He didn't. You know what he did instead? He bought replacement amps for MFW-15's and built LS-9's. That is pure BULLSH!T. We did not give money to MFW and LS customers, we gave to CHARITIES and he clearly did not care one bit. Had someone called the police 2 years ago, the money that has been spent would have still been there to provide at least partial restitution. At this point I am sure there is little left.

In fact, If there is ANY money to go to court costs and blood sucking lawyers, it PROVES THE POINT! If he has a dime to his name, why did it not go to the charities a long time ago?

Your argument assumes that Mark was a good guy caught up in a bad circumstance but that he really wanted to make everything right. The evidence against that is substantial. Looking at the dates, the magnitude of the theft, the number of incidences, his constant lying about what was happening, there is no way it was just a good man who made a mistake in the face of some bad luck. There is no way he was so stupid to lose track of $150,000 and not realize he never gave the money he said he did. Not the slightest little chance in hell. It is clear to me the man was a professional thief and a con, and we were his fools.

 

[quadriverfalls]

You really think that's the real sad part? Are you not seeing the elephant in the corner? Hint: Elephant = Schifty screwing all these people...



That was already the Status quo. This was done by MLS, and for months, years even, people who have always been supportive of MLS are more the issue than anybody else celebrating today. Hell, how many were attacked for even doubting the greatness of this man? The celebration, if there is cause for that, is because one man is being brought to justice for his crimes. In any circumstances, those who have been wronged have been wronged by MLS, and restitution was highly unlikely. The tragedy here has nothing to do with lawyers, courts, retribution, it's how one man's actions has wronged so many people.

As Tex put so eloquently, don't cast MLS as a victim here. It's absolutely ridiculous and even offending to do so.

And I honestly believe that him being brought to justice is the best thing which could happen, for pretty much anyone involved... If in fact it doesn't benefit some, then the blame isn't on those who did what was necessary to bring this man to justice, but again, squarely on the shoulders of Schifty, who's to blame for everything here. Scary how some want to cast him as the victim... Oh he's old.. He's sick... Give me a break. He wasn't too old and too sick to screw all these people, he shouldn't be too old and too sick for the consequences either.

Once again, I was misunderstood in this case. Look, it's no secret that I was the man's friend. At least I think I was, or even led to believe that I was.... whatever. And every time I've given him the least bit of support, I've been thrown to the wolves. There were far more than me who were way, WAY more vociferous in their defense of him earlier in this fiasco. And granted, I'll even accept that I was "louder than some" in my silence through all of this.

I am NOT casting his as a victim here. He stole raffle money. There was no "under funding," the raffles were fully funded when they closed. So now the hammer has fallen and he should pay for his crimes. But, grant me some slack please in that I had hoped in my heart that he would make these raffles (at least) whole. I really don't care diddly squat about business partners and such being left out on the clothes line. That's just business. And, as a part of business you take risks every day. But, at least allow me to feel for all of those we (as a participating member in that community and several of the raffles) were trying to help, who are now absolutely left out to dry.

After the attorney's get their money, the court costs paid (which WILL be done before a dime ever goes to those charities) there won't likely be anything left. I hope that's not the case but....

 

[m-fine]

After the attorney's get their money, the court costs paid (which WILL be done before a dime ever goes to those charities) there won't likely be anything left. I hope that's not the case but....

Again, if there is a penny to pay an attorney rather than a court appointed public defender, it should have gone to a charity a long time ago, and would have if Mark was willing to do so without being forced. If the last 6 years prove anything, it is that courts HAD to get involved or for the charities to have a chance of seeing the money.

 

[quadriverfalls]

John, I decided not to call the authorities a long time ago because of this thinking, but now I know that was a huge and costly mistake. Mark had no intention of paying out the charity money, and yet another "one more year" with "big changes" was not going to make a damn bit of difference. This started in 2004! The guy was flying around the globe, driving a Porsche, living the good life for 4+ years after he started taking this money.

Even after it came to light, he has been dishonest and in no way remorseful. He eventually admitted to two "underfunded raffles" even when we knew of at least 4 he had stolen from. He said he was going to pay them what they were owed. He didn't. You know what he did instead? He bought replacement amps for MFW-15's and built LS-9's. That is pure BULLSH!T. We did not give money to MFW and LS customers, we gave to CHARITIES and he clearly did not care one bit. Had someone called the police 2 years ago, the money that has been spent would have still been there to provide at least partial restitution. At this point I am sure there is little left.

In fact, If there is ANY money to go to court costs and blood sucking lawyers, it PROVES THE POINT! If he has a dime to his name, why did it not go to the charities a long time ago?

Your argument assumes that Mark was a good guy caught up in a bad circumstance but that he really wanted to make everything right. The evidence against that is substantial. Looking at the dates, the magnitude of the theft, the number of incidences, his constant lying about what was happening, there is no way it was just a good man who made a mistake in the face of some bad luck. There is no way he was so stupid to lose track of $150,000 and not realize he never gave the money he said he did. Not the slightest little chance in hell. It is clear to me the man was a professional thief and a con, and we were his fools.

I know that Matt.... I suppose I didn't want to believe it, but I said (and admited) as much earlier this morning.... http://forums.av123.com/showpost.php?p=757875&postcount=50