Receiver vs. Pre-Pro

[moodyda]

Can todays recievers play quality 2 channel stereo. I have read that some of the newer recievers can multitask so to speak. One in particular caught my eye, Pioneer sc-25 for $999 @Best Buy, has been noted as having the goods. This will be replacing a B&K reference 20 that was a wonderful unit but is beginning to fail. B&K does offer 2 upgrades one gives you a ref31 (2005 technology) for 1k or the ref 70 for $2700 (1k off for trade-in) which is a little steep. Last time (10 years ago) I shopped for HT the recievers (Pioneer, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo) were not even close to the B&K. Also I still can utilize the AV 5000 5 channel B&K amp (true 125 wp/c) or is the 140 rated on the Pioneer real?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

1) Can todays recievers play quality 2 channel stereo?

2) Is the 140 rated on the Pioneer real?

1) Absolutely YES

2) Most likely - Pioneer, Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, & HK usually have REAL power ratings.

 

[davidtwotrees]

Audioholics basically believe that modern electronics can reproduce sound faithfully weather with a prepro or a reciever, stereo or surround. You have a nice amp there, I say use it. What is your budget? The best bang for the buck is to get a mid level receiver with pre outs to use your amp. Prepros are cool, just because they are. But, they are more expensive than receivers pretty much across the board. It may seem a waste, but buying the reciever and using it as a prepro is the most economical way to go. Sound wise, there should be no audible differences in the human range of hearing. I started out liking the seperates rig. But the wires and black boxes just got to be to much. Now I want the simplest option. And receivers with hdmi offer that. Just my two cents. You are looking to use that amp so you will still have two boxes if you use a receiver as prepro. If you look at the flagship receiver that accudeftechguy above me has, that thing has a really robust amp section, possibly better than your b and k. But that is a really expensive item. I have active speakers now, and if I could afford an hdmi prepro I would eliminate the whole amp/receiver conundrum that way, personally. Use that amp and buy a reciever. I like my Onkyo 706 refurb for $450 from acc4less. But thats me.

 

[Seth=L]

1) Absolutely YES

2) Most likely - Pioneer, Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, & HK usually have REAL power ratings.

The Pioneer SC-25 will not match the B&K on output, that's not even a debate. The B&K can swing much higher levels of wattage than it's 125 watts per channel rating would suggest. Like most receivers and amplifiers the B&K is capable of delivering more power into a 2 channel setup than it would in 5 channel. Most amplifiers are rated ACD and not 2 channel. If they used the same system of rating that receivers use their specified output would be much higher.

 

[moodyda]

So going with the Pioneer sc-25 would be a good choice for both 2 channel and HT? I guess that I would run the B&K for my 5.1 set-up and then could utilize the onboard amp for zone 2 and zone 3 (if possible). What do you guys think of the Rotel 1550 (can be had for about 1500) would it be better or just similar to the PIoneer?

Thanks, Dan

 

[ChickenSchmidt]

Pioneer SC-25 for $999 @Best Buy???

Can,t find it at this price and I want to spend some money today!!!

 

[moodyda]

You have to go to the store, not online.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Pioneer SC-25 will not match the B&K on output, that's not even a debate. The B&K can swing much higher levels of wattage than it's 125 watts per channel rating would suggest. Like most receivers and amplifiers the B&K is capable of delivering more power into a 2 channel setup than it would in 5 channel. Most amplifiers are rated ACD and not 2 channel. If they used the same system of rating that receivers use their specified output would be much higher.

Pioneer Elite SC-07 AVR Rated Power:
140 watts into 8-ohms 2-Ch Driven

Pioneer Elite SC-07 AVR Measured Power (HomeTheaterMag):
5 channels driven continuously 8-ohm loads: 150.5 watts (1% distortion)

Denon AVR-4310CI Rated Power:
130 watts into 8 ohms, two channels driven

Denon AVR-4310CI Measured Power (HTM):
131 watts into 8 ohms, five channels driven (1% distortion)

Integra DTR-9.9 AVR Rated Power:
145 watts into 8 ohms, two channels driven

Integra DTR-9.9 AVR Measured Power (HTM):
180 watts into 8 ohms, five channels driven (1% distortion)

Denon AVR-5308CI Rated Power:
150 watts into 8 ohms, 7 channels driven

Denon AVR-5308CI Measured Power (HTM):
169 watts into 8 ohms, 7 channels driven (1% distortion)


B&K Reference 7260 Six-Channel Amplifier Rated Power:
200 watts into 8 ohms, all channels driven

B&K Reference 7260 Six-Channel Amplifier Measured Power (HTM):
With all six channels driven into 8-ohm loads, the left channel began clipping at 160.7 watts and reaches 0.1% distortion at 174.7 watts and 1% distortion at 210.5 watts.

So the Pioneer SC07 AVR outputs 10 watts more than rated power, Integra 9.9 AVR outputs 35 watts more than rated power, Denon 5308 AVr outputs 19 watts more than rated, and the B&K AMPLIFIER outputs 10 watts more than rated power (all @ 1% distortion).

 

[goodsnd]

I'm admittedly a bit biased here as I ended up purchasing the SC-25 this last week, but here is my take on the issue:

A receiver such as the SC-25 can, at a minimum, operate as a preamp. So, if you're interested in updating your surround sound capability, but didn't want to shell out for both pre-amp + amp at the time, get the receiver and use it for the time being. Add to it as you see fit. So far as I can tell, the audio processing of the SC-25 is top notch (especially for $1k) and its multitude of decoding and inputs allows for flexibility you can use for several years.

Personally, I've got an old PS Audio amp powering my mains and utilize the SC-25's amplification only for center and surrounds (+ zones). I may add a center channel amp later, but for now it works great. Given it has 7.1 capability, I don't see it as a waste relegating it to only powering (efficiently) four surround channels.

BTW I think the SC-25's sale/deal is only available in store at Magnolia through the 24th.

 

[Seth=L]

Pioneer Elite SC-07 AVR Rated Power:
140 watts into 8-ohms 2-Ch Driven

Pioneer Elite SC-07 AVR Measured Power (HomeTheaterMag):
5 channels driven continuously 8-ohm loads: 150.5 watts (1% distortion)

Denon AVR-4310CI Rated Power:
130 watts into 8 ohms, two channels driven

Denon AVR-4310CI Measured Power (HTM):
131 watts into 8 ohms, five channels driven (1% distortion)

Integra DTR-9.9 AVR Rated Power:
145 watts into 8 ohms, two channels driven

Integra DTR-9.9 AVR Measured Power (HTM):
180 watts into 8 ohms, five channels driven (1% distortion)

Denon AVR-5308CI Rated Power:
150 watts into 8 ohms, 7 channels driven

Denon AVR-5308CI Measured Power (HTM):
169 watts into 8 ohms, 7 channels driven (1% distortion)


B&K Reference 7260 Six-Channel Amplifier Rated Power:
200 watts into 8 ohms, all channels driven

B&K Reference 7260 Six-Channel Amplifier Measured Power (HTM):
With all six channels driven into 8-ohm loads, the left channel began clipping at 160.7 watts and reaches 0.1% distortion at 174.7 watts and 1% distortion at 210.5 watts.

So the Pioneer SC07 AVR outputs 10 watts more than rated power, Integra 9.9 AVR outputs 35 watts more than rated power, Denon 5308 AVr outputs 19 watts more than rated, and the B&K AMPLIFIER outputs 10 watts more than rated power (all @ 1% distortion).

I stand corrected, I would have thought the B&K would have more headroom.

 

[davidtwotrees]

So, for all the chat about wattage..........just how many watts are we using and listening to during an everyday, normal, median setting, listening session. You know, in the middle third of the spectrum where we all do 75% of whatever it is we do in front of our rigs? 35? 50? Or, a normal movie? Not the cannon scene in Master and Commander, but everyday movies?

To the op. The differences in wattage you are looking at are inaudible! Put a blindfold on and no human could tell the difference. That BK amp is a nice piece of gear. Use it and enjoy it!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So, for all the chat about wattage..........just how many watts are we using and listening to during an everyday, normal, median setting, listening session. You know, in the middle third of the spectrum where we all do 75% of whatever it is we do in front of our rigs? 35? 50? Or, a normal movie? Not the cannon scene in Master and Commander, but everyday movies?

To the op. The differences in wattage you are looking at are inaudible! Put a blindfold on and no human could tell the difference. That BK amp is a nice piece of gear. Use it and enjoy it!

I say about 30-40 watts.

So much of what we do is about IMAGE - I mean that "coolness" factor.

Even though we realize we don't even use 100 watts x 7, it might be "cool" to have 200 watts x 7 just for the heck of it.

 

[Swerd]

Can todays recievers play quality 2 channel stereo? I have read that some of the newer recievers can multitask so to speak. One in particular caught my eye, Pioneer sc-25 for $999 @Best Buy, has been noted as having the goods. This will be replacing a B&K reference 20 that was a wonderful unit but is beginning to fail. B&K does offer 2 upgrades one gives you a ref31 (2005 technology) for 1k or the ref 70 for $2700 (1k off for trade-in) which is a little steep. Last time (10 years ago) I shopped for HT the recievers (Pioneer, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo) were not even close to the B&K. Also I still can utilize the AV 5000 5 channel B&K amp (true 125 wp/c) or is the 140 rated on the Pioneer real?

Another option you might think about is to look for a used preamp/processor to replace your B&K Ref 20. B&K will modify your Ref 20 to perform like a Ref 30 for $1000, but you can buy a used Ref 30 for about $350 on audiogon. Then you can continue to use your AV 5000, a good amp.

Look on the Audiogon HT processor lists for B&K Ref 50s or Ref 30s. Since B&K came out with the new Ref 70, a lot of those older used models are available.

 

[itschris]

I have Elite 94 hooked up to a Sunfire Cinema Grand. I can say with some certainty that my system at least sounds different when using the receivers power vs the Sunfire. I've played with this over the last year or so and have come to different conclusions. I stop short of saying one is better than the other, but they are different and I prefer using the Sunfire.

I'm still a 100% sure why I got the Elite... I think I always like the Elite line, but I think I'd have been just as well off buying a preamp like the Integra unit. And I wholly agree that there's just something cool about having a preamp and amp.

 

[Adam]

And I wholly agree that there's just something cool about having a preamp and amp.

There's also something at least moderately cool about still being able to use your system if the amp stops working. I use an Elite as my pre/pro, too, and I have no regrets about it.

 

[zumbo]

I say about 30-40 watts.

So much of what we do is about IMAGE - I mean that "coolness" factor.

Even though we realize we don't even use 100 watts x 7, it might be "cool" to have 200 watts x 7 just for the heck of it.

Bunch of BS.

I see this debate over-and over. There is no way I am using 30-40 watts when my 175wpc Adcom is indicating clipping.

There is no way a 1k receiver can touch separates.

There is no way a receiver is as clean as a pre-amp unless it will allow the user to turn off internal amplification.

A receiver is a better option for a HT pre-amp from a value stand-point. That is it.

I use a RX-Z7 as a pre-amp. Allows me to shut-down internal amplification. It was a much better value than what I wanted.

http://www.rotel.com/NA/Products/ProductDetails.htm?id=474

It's best just to go ahead and get what you want. I usually end-up with it one way or another. Just like a crack-head thinking one twenty dollar hit is going to be enough.

 

[JerryLove]

Bunch of BS.

I see this debate over-and over. There is no way I am using 30-40 watts when my 175wpc Adcom is indicating clipping.

There is no way a 1k receiver can touch separates.

And it's a funny debate since it's objectively measureable and therefore not debateable.

All else being equal: your 40W amp will perform just like your 175W amp up to -7db. You will not be able to tell the difference in blind listening, and neither will a mic. And for a normal speaker (90db efficient) in a normal room (my bedroom) at a normal listening level (<100db)m given room accentuation, you'll spend most of your time 1-4 watts with spikes up towards 10w.

There is no amp of any merit which offers any distortion above the threshold of hearing up to its power rating. As proven above, most push past that.

Now for you, there's something else going on. If you are clipping at 175W one of a few things is happening.
1) Your amp is broken.
2) You are driving too low a load (whisker short?).
3) Your speakers are very inefficient.
4) You are creating unusually high SPLs

I was at one of the local high-end stores listening to the $80k McIntosh speakers (Great bass, didn't like the treble). They were each hooked to a McIntosh 3000W amp with this giant meter on the front and in a fairly large theater room. At the point where spikes were 10-20W, I was at the limit I was going to listen to at.

Don't get me wrong: If I had them at home and in a room large enough to make it worthwile: I'd put a couple hundred watts on "just to be sure" (the Yam P2500S is an inexpensive amp).

The point is: figure out your listening volumes and efficiency, then leave room for spikes and really loud commercials.

 

[zumbo]

My speakers are 4ohm. All five of them.

My speakers are 86dB. All five of them.

My room is huge. No attic. Open beam.

My clip indicators are employed during concert dvd's.

With all of this in mind, one can see where my power is needed. I actually need a little more. Just a tad. It's close.

No 1k receiver will do the job here. Therefore, a 1k receiver is not equal. Not even close.

 

[zumbo]

Y'all can inform people to buy 8ohm efficient speakers with 1k receivers all you want. If that gives you a fuzzy feeling about your investment, then good for you.

Not me. I keep it real. Get the best you can afford. Simple as that. Cutting corners doesn't satisfy.

I never get that empty feeling when I crank my system. It's a wow moment. Over-and-over. I have had 1k receivers. Many empty moments. Few wow moments.

 

[PENG]

Bunch of BS.

I see this debate over-and over. There is no way I am using 30-40 watts when my 175wpc Adcom is indicating clipping.

There is no way a 1k receiver can touch separates.

There is no way a receiver is as clean as a pre-amp unless it will allow the user to turn off internal amplification.

You are seeing this debate over and over because people, including you, tend to make generalized statements based on their own experience. The fact is, it depends..... We all have different experiences for various reasons. What is adequate for me may not be adequate for you but may be more than adequate, even excessive for others.

Some small people eats more than big people too!! In my H.T. room if I listen to 2 channel music, my system will draw typically less than 5W on average, peaking to may be 50W at the most for very short durations. I am talking about like at 100 dB SPL.

I have actually taken quite a few measurements using instrument that can capture relatively short duration peaks. Again I repeat, it is my experience in my H.T. room. It really depends on the individual situations. I have taken measurements while using my 2X200W Adcom, 2X300W 4B SST and my little AVR-4308. The numbers always remain the same (using the same CD of course), and they do sound similar enough that I know I will not pass any blind tests. And by the way I have never seen my Adcom clips, not even during the real cannon shots or heavy bass drum hits in some of my classical music SACDs.

Regardless, I love amps, they are my toys. If I have the extra cash I will acquire at least another 500WX2 high end power amp just to have something to play with. As for preamp, someone on this forum tried to convince me a McIntosh preamp will make my system sing. For a while I was forcing myself to believe it because I want to buy another toy. Well, soon enough I realized that I know enough electrical theory to not believe most human can hear the difference between a receiver such as your mid end Yamaha and high end separates (I don't consider Anthem/Bryston preamp/prepro high end either). I once discussed this topic with one of my college classmate who is now a professor in EE and design/build amps is one of his hobby, he didn't waste much time on this topic at all.