Receiver vs. Pre-Pro

[zumbo]

I have people visit my home who believe they would like to go to my drum room to hear me play. I warn them it's loud. I warn them it's real. I warn them it's real loud. I ask, are you sure, knowing that they don't have a clue of what I am trying to tell them. Then I play. If you know what I am getting at, then you can imagine the look on their faces. Stunned. Petrified.

Same goes for when they think they want to check-out a concert dvd. Fact is, there are very few people who enjoy being in a small closed room with a band. Same goes for a powerful system.

The only way to prove what I am saying is to be here.

 

[zumbo]

And just to be clear, I am not debating.

I am giving an opinion.

A 1k receiver is a better value for a pre-amp, compared to a 1k pre-pro. Nothing more.

A 1k receiver can't compare to separates in a decent size room driving quality speakers, which is where this thread started heading.

 

[PENG]

And just to be clear, I am not debating.

I am giving an opinion.

A 1k receiver is a better value for a pre-amp, compared to a 1k pre-pro. Nothing more.

A 1k receiver can't compare to separates in a decent size room driving quality speakers, which is where this thread started heading.

First of all I agree with you (as quoted) and I know you are not debating, neither am I. You did seem to say people were debating so I was trying to tell you why I thought such debates are ongoing. I also wanted to emphasize the fact that whether a person will hear a difference or not depend on his/her own situation/environment. The example you gave about playiing drums in a room is a good one. Actually it still depends on the size on your room but I think I can reasonably assume it won't be anywhere near the size of an indoor concert hall. In that case, I do not believe there exist any Adcom amp that is poweful enough to offer you live like experience. If there is one, you probably need a 400A service in your house to feed it anyway.

On the other hand, even my humble 300WX2 system can offer me near live like experience, but it only has to reproduce the sound level/effect one would experience in a concert hall that is at least 300 times the size of my HT room (8X12X20). So even for me to feel that live like experience my system draws less than 5W on average. I probably over reacted to your calling another poster's comments ' BUNCH of BS'.

 

[PENG]

The only way to prove what I am saying is to be here.

I, for one, don't need any proof from you. I have been to concerts. You have a huge room, 4 ohms speakers, 86 dB sensitivity and you play drums. I am actually would have thought you needed much more power than your 175W Adcom can offer. Your Yamaha is an excellent receiver for use as a prepro. You can throw much more money on separates (edit:I meant separate preamp vs your RX-Z7) costing 10 times more and I am sure any difference you will hear will be largely placebo. Now that's just my opinion, not facts at all so no 'debate' necessary.

 

[JerryLove]

Assuming 175W is at 4ohm, you are simply playing with peaks over 108db (Louder than a jackhammer). If I had to guess, I'd say in the LF. My guess is the most common cause would be someone compensating for LF roll-off with EQ; but it may just be set that loud. That or there's a problem in the system somewhere.

Though your thought you need "a little" more seems unlikely. 3db (the useful limit of hearing) more than 175W is 350W. If I were clipping a 175W amp, I'd consider nothing less than twice the power (actually: I'd measure my real volume and figure out my needs).

A 1k receiver can't compare to separates in a decent size room driving quality speakers, which is where this thread started heading.

At a given wattage: no one will be able to tell the two apart. That's not an opinion, it's a tested fact. The only difference is power. And yes, they do not make 400WPC AVRs under $1k than I am aware of.

 

[zumbo]

The reason I say I need a little more is that I feel the speakers can take a little more beyond the point of the clip indicators beginning to flash. I am already using a dedicated 20A circuit.

On another note, let's look at it like this.

A Honda Civic is capable of 110mph within it's limits.

A BMW M3 is capable of 110mph within it's limits.

They will both be equal at said level. No blindfold needed.

However, the M3 is capable of much more. Well beyond the limit of the Civic.

My system is very close to the feeling of being at the concert being watched. I can assure you there is nothing wrong with my Adcom, or my Z7.

 

[zumbo]

Assuming 175W is at 4ohm, you are simply playing with peaks over 108db

My amp has no way of knowing the SPL in my room. The size and acoustic properties of my room would be the determining factor of the actual SPL at clipping of 175W @ 4ohm. My amp is simply running out of gas before my ultimate satisfaction. For what it is, it performs very well.

 

[zumbo]

Can todays recievers play quality 2 channel stereo. I have read that some of the newer recievers can multitask so to speak. One in particular caught my eye, Pioneer sc-25 for $999 @Best Buy, has been noted as having the goods. This will be replacing a B&K reference 20 that was a wonderful unit but is beginning to fail. B&K does offer 2 upgrades one gives you a ref31 (2005 technology) for 1k or the ref 70 for $2700 (1k off for trade-in) which is a little steep. Last time (10 years ago) I shopped for HT the recievers (Pioneer, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo) were not even close to the B&K. Also I still can utilize the AV 5000 5 channel B&K amp (true 125 wp/c) or is the 140 rated on the Pioneer real?

I want you guys to go back and read this first post. There is no way a 1k Pioneer from BB is going to satisfy the question. If you believe so, then okay. I don't.

 

[JerryLove]

On another note, let's look at it like this.

I don't know if it's the example I would choose. My BMW has a much larger battery than my friend's civic. It's used to crank a larger engine. I cannot run my BMW on her Civic battery (won't turn over). She could run her civic on my BMW battery (the fact it won't fit not withstanding) and have "extra amperage".

If you are running a BMW engine, then you need an appropriate battery. Much like with the cars, the exact size could be computed.

My problem with your example is that an M3 and Civic is tha you are appealing to traits which people care about which are not "moving at 70". There's no analogous trait to an amp. One amp will not "accellerate faster" nor "turn more sharply" than another. Unless you want to talk "how it looks", the difference is power.

My amp has no way of knowing the SPL in my room. The size and acoustic properties of my room would be the determining factor of the actual SPL at clipping of 175W @ 4ohm.

Your amp doesn't "know" anything at all. It's an inanimate object. I however know several things.

At 1m, the minimum volume you could possably get from 100w on 86db sensitivity is 106db (+/- the 3db range I assume is on your FR chart for your speaker). That's what you would get an an anechoic chamber with no reflectivity. It is not possible, at that distance, to have less (unless there's an obsticle physically between you and the speaker), only more (from refelction).

Again: this is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of measurment.

You want to go louder than your current amp lets you? Then you are right: you need more amperage. I'm not sure I see what I've said that you are arguing against.

 

[JerryLove]

I want you guys to go back and read this first post. There is no way a 1k Pioneer from BB is going to satisfy the question. If you believe so, then okay. I don't.

Which question? He asked if the wattage rating on the AVR was "real". The answer is "yes".

Whether that will be enough fo the OP depends on how much power he needs. If he needs <140W, then the AVR will be enough. If he needs more, then it will not.

 

[PENG]

Can todays recievers play quality 2 channel stereo.

If you are referring to the Elite SC-25, then I have to agree with ADTG, but I thought we need to qualify the 'absolutely yes' answer by adding that it depends on how much power you need.

Also I still can utilize the AV 5000 5 channel B&K amp (true 125 wp/c) or is the 140 rated on the Pioneer real?

Now this is a technical question so I have to agree with Seth=L and most likely zumbo as well, that you cannot compare a $1K receiver's power rating to that of a mid range Power amplifier such as the B&K AV5000. If both are used in 2 channel applications, the B&K will likely out gun the SC-25. In real world listening, how much difference it is going to make for you will depend on other factors, but technically speaking most people will expect the B&K to be much more powerful than the 140W Pioneer. Don't expect twice as much though as that Pioneer is quite potent too.

 

[PENG]

I want you guys to go back and read this first post. There is no way a 1k Pioneer from BB is going to satisfy the question. If you believe so, then okay. I don't.

Fair enough, and I just did.

 

[JerryLove]

Now this is a technical question so I have to agree with Seth=L and most likely zumbo as well, that you cannot compare a $1K receiver's power rating to that of a mid range Power amplifier such as the B&K AV5000. If both are used in 2 channel applications, the B&K will likely out gun the SC-25.

See post 8 , both the pioneer AVR and B&K amp tested started distorting at 10W above their listed rating. The bench tests say that the two are very comparable (at similar rated wattages).

If, like Zumbo, you need more than 175WPC, then you are really only looknig at external amps. AVRs don't tend to come in that size.

 

[PENG]

See post 8 , both the pioneer AVR and B&K amp tested started distorting at 10W above their listed rating. The bench tests say that the two are very comparable (at similar rated wattages).

If, like Zumbo, you need more than 175WPC, then you are really only looknig at external amps. AVRs don't tend to come in that size.

Thank you for the link. This is getting interesting. I've now also read the detailed specs of the B&K amps. They seem to be a bit like some of the HK products that probably have mere average (power ratings) amps but strong power supplies in them. That means they may in fact be comparable to some reasonably powerful mid range to high end receivers in 2 channel and even all channel applications (examples: classical, jazz music) where high average power is not needed. Many receivers can handle high peaks as long as they don't last more than split seconds. Based on the detailed specs, I still expect the B&K amps will to out perform the Pioneer SC-25 in applications such as rock concerts and movies of the LOTR types, where high average power is a must. In other words, the bench tested 130WX7 Denon or Pioneer may be able to sustain 130W ACD for 1 minute but the B&K 7260 probably could do it all day long.

 

[JerryLove]

The ability to sustain load (an issue with heat generally) is certainly a differntiation between amps I neglected to mention, yes.

 

[zumbo]

If you are running a BMW engine, then you need an appropriate battery. Much like with the cars, the exact size could be computed.

If you are running 4ohm inefficient speakers, same situation. More power is needed. Your example is better than mine.

Your amp doesn't "know" anything at all. It's an inanimate object. I however know several things.

That is what I was saying. You claimed I was 108dB during my amp clipping while producing 175W @ 4ohm. There is no way to assume that figure.

You want to go louder than your current amp lets you? Then you are right: you need more amperage. I'm not sure I see what I've said that you are arguing against.

The 108dB statement above.

Much like a silky smooth BMW inline six has the ability to perform above the limits of a Civic 4 banger, a separate amp has the ability to perform above the limits of a 1k receiver. It's pretty simple. No fancy techno-lingo needed.

 

[zumbo]

The ability to sustain load (an issue with heat generally) is certainly a differntiation between amps I neglected to mention, yes.

As I have mentioned in threads before, my concert dvd's usually run from an hour up. I may watch two or three on a good night. Bench test that most receiver/amp manufacturers use for WPC are not real world. Your above statement is.

This is why I insist a 1k receiver can't cut the mustard for me, nor would I ever be satisfied with a Civic.

EDIT
Nor would I recommend a 1k receivers amp section to someone who has years of experience with separate amplification, such as the OP.

While the discussion can be informative, we need not loose sight of the original situation.

 

[zumbo]

It seems as though our discussion is pointless. The OP has started several threads about the same thing, and seems to be ignoring this one. The OP must be missing the point that this discussion was for his benefit. We all have working systems.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=664991#post664991

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61617

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26032

 

[moodyda]

Updated equipment info

To Upgrade or Move Forward??

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a situation that might be shared with many of you now or sometime in the future. I have a circa 1999 pre-amp, B&K reference 20, that has been a great pre-pro but it is beginning to fail. My options through B&K are to replace it with a Ref 31 for $1,000 and you get a new remote and a pre-pro of the last generation (does not decode all the new blu ray stuff) or Upgrade to the latest reference 70 that will do all the HDMI switching and the latest codecs for $2,700 (msrp 3,700) less the $1,000 credit for my ref 20. I have read that there are many issues with the latest ref 70 and they are replacing a board that will provide a fix that will be due out sometime in January.
I do not really want to fork out $2,700 for an "iffy" unit and I am not sure about investing $1,000 in yesterdays technology (though B&K did it better thany other for their price point... my opinion). I was looking at 2 new units offered here locally in West Palm Beach, (Recievers; are they up to Pre-pros yet) Pioneer sc-25 for $1,000 or a Rotel 1550 for $1,500. Even with those recievers I could make use of my B&K 5 channel amp (125 "true" w p/c) for my 5.1 and utilize the onboard amps for multi zones.
If staying with B&K I would probably go with the older Ref 31 to save some dough but I wonder if it is a waste since I can get the latest technology for the same price point or 500 more. I do not use Blue Ray yet and never used video switching (the wife hates to turn on all audio components to just watch tv plus it is a waste of energy if it is not needed). I was told that the audio you get from blue ray can be decoded by the player and sent out to a 5.1 set-up.
My current system is a 5.1 set-up that includes Sonus Faber Grand Piano (6 ohm) for my front 3, Klipsch KSF-S5 (8 ohm) surrounds and a SVS pb12 plus subwoofer. I really do not see the need to add 2 speakers for the 7.1 effect, plus my current room set-up will not allow for it at this time. Finally my TV is a 65" Mitsubishi rear projection that only accepts up to 1080i which currently rules out all HDMI connections (at least to the TV).
Is the latest technology that important based on my criterea listed above or am I missing something?
What shall I do?
Upgrade with B&K(ref 31) or Move forward (with a receiver)

Thanks, Dan

 

[moodyda]

Posted above is that other post. At the time I was not getting much on this post or others. I have come to the conclusion (based on what you all have been jousting about)that the Pioneer would be suitable to my situation. It would serve as a Pre-pro for the main 5.1 and the internal amp will be used for my 2 zones (that will free-up my Adcom 2 channel). I demo'd a Rotel AVR 1550 and it fell short of the Pioneer. The Rotel is rated 75 real world watts and it was weak. The Pioneer did better with its on board amp than the rotel, however the Rotel was a beast when hooked up to the B&K. Now I have to compare the Pioneer internal to the B&K. I really wanted the Pre-pro set-up as I had in the past but you cannot get one for less than $1500. This does not make sense and I will not be buying one until they are at least in the price leauge. Take the pioneer sc-25 for example, it is basically a sc-27 minus a few bells and it is about $700 cheaper. Take away the amp on both and you would have a great pre-pro for $700, a market that seems to be ignored.