Bookshelf and Receiver questions from a noob

[DJ in TX]

So it will be obvious from my questions, but I know very little of the technical side of stereos/speakers/receivers. When I was in college, I had a great pair of Klipsch CF-1s powered by a Sony AV receiver, and they sounded really good...but I didn't know much other than they cost a lot and my brother recommended the brand. But despite having some nice speakers, my knowledge is very limited and I need some help.

I want to get some good speakers for my living room for better music and movie audio than my HDTV can provide, and I think a good pair of bookshelves is what I am looking for. I noticed this weekend while watching a movie that the built-in speakers in my Panasonic plasma actually sound pretty good for TV speakers. So, obviously I don't want to spend several hundred dollars on speakers and an amp/receiver, if it isn't going to be a big step up and provide much higher highs and much lower lows.

I would love to find a phenomenal deal on either a current product, or something recently discontinued that will give big sound from a small package. If you know of anything like this, or a website with a large archive of reviews please let me know.

Right now I am looking at the following 5 bookshelf pairs:

Klipsch RB-10
Klipsch RB-51
Polk TSi 100
Polk TSi 200
Polk RTi A1

If any of these are really great purchases for the price please let me know, as I am having trouble finding expert reviews/auditions of most of these to guide my choice. Also, if any of them are over priced or garbage, that would be good to know also.

I think my main questions are about output and frequency response. From reading specs, it sounds like the Klipsch speakers have a much greater frequency response than the Polks, so does this mean definitively that they are better and can produce a greater sound range? Or does this only make them slightly better? I am curious how much weight to give this aspect.

Also, about output as far as watts are concerned, if the Klipsch website says the recommended receiver should be 100watts, does this mean anything over 100 watts per channel will damage the speakers? Also, will a smaller receiver that is only 30 watts per channel be very underwhelming and make the whole system useless?

Thanks in advance for your help! I'm sure I will have follow up questions so please check back.

 

[DJ in TX]

So no one has any input? Did I write something offensive or break some rule of forum etiquette? Or maybe my post was too lengthy and people got bored before they could read it all?

 

[markw]

Put less faith in speaker specs and more on what they sound like to you. I believe this was pointed out to you earlier on another of your threads.

No speakers from those manufacturers are "garbage" but their presentation may please some and not others. Again, only your ears will tell.

As for power, the more, the merrier if you use common sense and turn it down at the first sign of distortion. Again your ears (and common sense) should give you warning.

 

[DJ in TX]

Put less faith in speaker specs and more on what they sound like to you. I believe this was pointed out to you earlier on another of your threads.

No speakers from those manufacturers are "garbage" but their presentation may please some and not others. Again, only your ears will tell.

As for power, the more, the merrier if you use common sense and turn it down at the first sign of distortion. Again your ears (and common sense) should give you warning.

It's not that I want to base a purchase solely on specs, but they are certainly part of my equation. And I personally would like to learn something so I can understand the specs better. Listening is certainly a good tool, I agree, but if I happen to be in a situation where the dealers near me do not carry one or more of these 5 speakers, then I need other means of comparing and making a decision. Personally, I think other people's impressions and opinions can be helpful.

For example, if the manufacturer says a particular speaker's power handling is "50 w max continuous (200 w peak)", then knowing how to interpret this info is helpful. Listening won't help me know what wattage of receiver to get, or a good brand for that matter. You're saying that the more power the better, and that's helpful info, but knowing what would be too little power would be good as well. I was hoping for an idea of how to determine a bare minimum of power depending on the maximum. The last thing I want to do is buy some nice speakers, but then have a receiver that doesn't drive them enough to make it all worth it. I would love to not be constrained by a budget, but that is not my situation. I have to be smart and find a good deal and know what corners I can cut and still be satisfied with my purchase.

 

[Davemcc]

The speakers you are currently looking at can all be driven with just about any receiver from the common name brands, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer, etc. You can comfortably choose a receiver based on the features you expect to use and within your budget.

 

[fredk]

If you want to learn more about speakers and how to interpret specs, I would start in the AV university section here at audioholics. Look in the Speaker and Acoustic Principles sections.

There is also very good reading in the Speaker section of Pro Reviews.

If you want to get further into the details of how we hear and how that affects our speaker choice, I would recommend buying Dr. Floyd Toole's book on acoustics.

You can also use the search tool here to pull up past comments on the speakers you listed.

 

[DJ in TX]

Thanks for the info! I didn't know about the AV university, I'll have to give it a look.

From here I am curious about using a mini system head unit from Yamaha to power speakers. I like the idea of it being a very small unit and that it doesn't come with speakers so that I could add my own. I have also always heard good things about yamaha, so I would assume if I go with a mini receiver that this might be a good one. Specifically I am looking at the DRX-730.
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=5024393&CTID=5002800

It says it only provides 30 watts x2. Obviously this would only allow me to max out at a 2.1 system, but I think this is all I need right now. I could upgrade to a bigger badder receiver later for 5.1 or 7.1 if I wanted surround.

I'm just wondering what you guys think of this specific unit, and do you think it would provide a good amount of power to a set of bookshelves?

 

[Davemcc]

Specifically I am looking at the DRX-730.

Aww, it's so cute.

I think you can do better for the money.

 

[fredk]

Looks to me like this is strictly a 2.0 receiver. I don't know what else is out there in terms of compact receivers. If you are willing to accept a full size receiver, you can certainly do better.

 

[Seth=L]

For compact systems I would shy away from the Yamahas. I honestly believe that a DVD receiver that has iPod connectivity probably won't have much output with only a 30 watt power consumption. Most DVD players take at least 10 watts by themselves, leaving a meager 20 watts for the rest of the machine. So 30 watts x 2, yeah, in one of it's wet dreams.

Onkyo's systems of similar cost, and usually lower, have much high power consumption (leads me to conclude it might be able to muster more power for speakers since it's got a bigger power supply. It's wattage output is rated similarly on paper, but I'm more inclined to believe them when the power consumption is 115 watts.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882120099&nm_mc=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-Shelf+Systems-_-Onkyo-_-82120099

That Onkyo has SACD support, which is pretty cool. You can use different speakers with the system. It also has dedicated discrete outputs for surround left/right, center, and a subwoofer. Strangely Onkyo doesn't seemt offer an amplifier aimed specifically for this system.

The Teac CD receiver in my signature below has a power consumption rating of 75 watts vs. the meager 30 watts of the Yamaha. It does very well, but it has clear limitations when connected to demanding speakers. I can't say anything for the Yamaha being full range, but the amplifier in the Teac's are full range as are the Onkyos. Some micro components have a high pass filter keeping the lowest frequencies from being played through the speakers, it reduces stress on the amplifier but the sound is not "full range". The Yamaha's astoundingly low power consumption makes me feel like it may not have full range output, so bass could be missing. Hopefull the subwoofer output has no filter on it, previous experience with JVC's micro system offerings had a problem with that. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get the lowest of lows out of that thing.

Teac also offers DVD/receivers w/ iPod connectivity.

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=97403

Most of the speakers you've chosen have reasonably high sensitivity, meaning you will get more output per watt on a more efficient speaker. Klipsch are renowned for efficiency. The Yamah might do alright some of those, but I feel there are better options as I've indicated with the Onkyo and Teac above if you plan to stick with micro DVD/receivers.

 

[DJ in TX]

Aww, it's so cute.

I think you can do better for the money.

Are you saying I can find a better one for the money that is also small footprint like this yamaha? Or do you mean going with a full size?

Looks to me like this is strictly a 2.0 receiver. I don't know what else is out there in terms of compact receivers. If you are willing to accept a full size receiver, you can certainly do better.

Unfortunately, I am beginning to agree with you. I may have to bite the bullet and get a full sized receiver. I just don't understand why they have to be so huge. I don't need a million connections on back and I am fine with a 2.1 system, instead of 5.1 or 7.1, so it seems like they could accomplish this in a smaller footprint that can still power 2 speakers and maybe a sub. I would even be happy with a receiver with the usual depth and width measurements if they could just be say 3 inches high instead of like 6 or 7. WOuld be especially nice to have an integrated DVD/BluRay to eliminate one more box under my TV.

 

[DJ in TX]

For compact systems I would shy away from the Yamahas. I honestly believe that a DVD receiver that has iPod connectivity probably won't have much output with only a 30 watt power consumption. Most DVD players take at least 10 watts by themselves, leaving a meager 20 watts for the rest of the machine. So 30 watts x 2, yeah, in one of it's wet dreams.

Onkyo's systems of similar cost, and usually lower, have much high power consumption (leads me to conclude it might be able to muster more power for speakers since it's got a bigger power supply. It's wattage output is rated similarly on paper, but I'm more inclined to believe them when the power consumption is 115 watts.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882120099&nm_mc=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-Shelf+Systems-_-Onkyo-_-82120099

That Onkyo has SACD support, which is pretty cool. You can use different speakers with the system. It also has dedicated discrete outputs for surround left/right, center, and a subwoofer. Strangely Onkyo doesn't seemt offer an amplifier aimed specifically for this system.

The Teac CD receiver in my signature below has a power consumption rating of 75 watts vs. the meager 30 watts of the Yamaha. It does very well, but it has clear limitations when connected to demanding speakers. I can't say anything for the Yamaha being full range, but the amplifier in the Teac's are full range as are the Onkyos. Some micro components have a high pass filter keeping the lowest frequencies from being played through the speakers, it reduces stress on the amplifier but the sound is not "full range". The Yamaha's astoundingly low power consumption makes me feel like it may not have full range output, so bass could be missing. Hopefull the subwoofer output has no filter on it, previous experience with JVC's micro system offerings had a problem with that. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get the lowest of lows out of that thing.

Teac also offers DVD/receivers w/ iPod connectivity.

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=97403

Most of the speakers you've chosen have reasonably high sensitivity, meaning you will get more output per watt on a more efficient speaker. Klipsch are renowned for efficiency. The Yamah might do alright some of those, but I feel there are better options as I've indicated with the Onkyo and Teac above if you plan to stick with micro DVD/receivers.

Wow, thanks for all the good suggestions. Very thorough. For some reason Teac and Onkyo don't readily come to mind for me. I'll have to check these out and look for some reviews.

Thanks!

 

[olddog]

Try some Polk LSI9's I found they have a very good sound, and as you add to your systemAS YOU WILL they are easy to match. Go ahead and look at some good AVR amps that can be had for less than 500.00 with 7 channel assignable. That way you can have HT and 2 channel if you want.
Go for the best speakers you can afford (best being what you like to hear) as a good speaker can make a crappy amp sound good while a bad speaker can make a good amp sound bad.
Stay away from those HTIB's as for the most part they are like a topless bar in that they will take your money and leaving you wanting for more

 

[Davemcc]

Are you saying I can find a better one for the money that is also small footprint like this yamaha? Or do you mean going with a full size?

This thing weighs 6.4lbs...total. How much of that do you think is amplifier?

A typical low end HT receiver in the $250-300 range will do a much better job of powering your speakers and have more useful features.

 

[markw]

This thing weighs 6.4lbs...total. How much of that do you think is amplifier?

A typical low end HT receiver in the $250-300 range will do a much better job of powering your speakers and have more useful features.

Not to mention even the lowly* 100 wpc Sherwood RX-4105 stereo (not HT) receiver for about $100 will provide at least twice the power of boutique mini-receivers.

And, you don't "need" a subwooofer output to drive most subwoofers.

* I say that tongue-in-cheek because I've placed three of these with friends and they work great.

 

[Seth=L]

This thing weighs 6.4lbs...total. How much of that do you think is amplifier?

A typical low end HT receiver in the $250-300 range will do a much better job of powering your speakers and have more useful features.

My Teac weights about twice that or more.

 

[DJ in TX]

This thing weighs 6.4lbs...total. How much of that do you think is amplifier?

A typical low end HT receiver in the $250-300 range will do a much better job of powering your speakers and have more useful features.

To answer your question, I have no clue how much of the 6.4 lbs is the amp. And if I did know this, I wouldn't know how weight would contribute to it's value or usability.

I know that a full size receiver would be better in terms of power and features, but I like a smaller footprint. I suppose I am to the point where I have to decide what is more important to me. So if I forget trying to find a small receiver, are their any good full size receivers that have a CD player or DVD player built in? This might help some of my space limitations.

Thoughts?

 

[Seth=L]

To answer your question, I have no clue how much of the 6.4 lbs is the amp. And if I did know this, I wouldn't know how weight would contribute to it's value or usability.

I know that a full size receiver would be better in terms of power and features, but I like a smaller footprint. I suppose I am to the point where I have to decide what is more important to me. So if I forget trying to find a small receiver, are their any good full size receivers that have a CD player or DVD player built in? This might help some of my space limitations.

Thoughts?

Basically the main components of an amplifier are transformer, capacitors, and transistors. The transformer does what it sounds like it does, it transforms 110v ac to a lower voltage DC that can be used by the electronics inside the receiver. Another crucial service the tranformer does is store energy momentarily. The larger the transformer the more energy it can store. Transformers found in receivers this size are usually made of iron and lots of copper windings. They usually contribute the most significant amount of weight in a receiver, at least in terms of density and comparsion to the rest of the receiver. My Yamaha RX-V3800 receiver weighs about 40 pounds, and about 15 of those pounds belong to the transformer.

Capacitors also store energy, also short term. Capacitors can release electric energy must faster than the transformer can, and they also act as a filter. Transformers look like big batteries, but they are less dense. They don't take up much weight.

Transistors are the final output device. Transistors generate lots of heat, so they need to be placed on a heatsink, usually aluminum fin looking things. In the Yamaha you where looking at they are probably pretty small and won't account for much weight, but the one in my receiver probably weighs about 3 pounds on it's own or more (half the weight of the Yamaha you are looking at).

The way I look at it, the Yamaha DVD receiver probably divides like so: Case - 2 pounds, internal electronics not including transformer, 1 maybe 2 pounds, which leaves 2-3 pounds for the transformer. That's pretty light. If there's so little space to store electric energy needed to power speakers, I can't imagine it being able to power too many speakers to well.

One exemption would be available though.

If the Yamaha DVD/receiver's amplifier uses some type of Class D amplifier section (which is more efficient, requires less overal current to produce similar results) it would help drive up the output, but still not to 30 watts per channel. No matter how you look at it, you can't defeat physics. You can't turn 30 watts into 60 plus have extra wattage to run other things like the display, processing, motor driving the disc drive and spindel.. etc....

 

[Davemcc]

To answer your question, I have no clue how much of the 6.4 lbs is the amp.

The question was supposed to be rhetorical but now that it's been answered, I guess that it was not. To answer your concerns, a good amplifier generally has some hefty weight in copper coils for transformers and such. 6.4lbs including the CD player is an indication that the amp section is a featherweight. If space is a genuine concern, you might consider an A500 with simple gain control switcher. Honestly, I haven't looked into the product selection of this type personally but I trust my AH compadres to steer you to the best combination of non-typical products.

 

[manofsteel2397]

yes yes to hime you listen lol yea my receiver weighs 30 lbs....also a good indication on well it is built to handle vibrations