DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[Shed]

With respect to myself, I don't see the intended goal as to have people cancel or not order from AV123.

Chu,

I did not mean to imply that convincing potential customers not to purchase from AV123 was in itself the intended goal of the thread. To clarify, my point is that awareness has been and continues to be raised, which allows individuals to make informed decisions. Keeping the information available is what is important. An individual’s decision of whether or not to buy is just one possible outcome.

In my case, the overall situation appeared to be both too risky and too distasteful to do business. I don’t think there is a more powerful statement one can make than voting with your wallet. If AV123 gets the message that business will suffer until the issues are resolved, maximum pressure (short of legal recourse) will have been applied.

Obviously, others have reviewed the same information and come to different conclusions. YMMV.

Shed

 

[wesley63]

It's a call I never made, sorry.

I'm sorry. I thought that you implied this when you pointed out the MLS-like verbage that JRandall was using. My mistake, I just read too much into a comment you made.

Jim

 

[TjMV3]

Yes, my heart bleeds for MSL. Poor MLS, I'm being mean-spirited

Give me a break with this nonsense.

And don't kid yourselves, the only reason that thread is still standing and there hasn't been one massive deletion; is because of everyone calling them out on it, here.......At Audioholics. So many have come here to share their experience (of getting screwed) and to spread the word; because they were forbidding it at their forum.

They (MLS and AV123) are getting pounded over here (rightfully so) and they figured it may be better to let Mark address this and try to apply yet another 5 gallons of personal lubricant....to the friction. Let's face it, MLS is getting chaffed so badly......it's turning into quite a nasty rash.

So Mark comes in and goes into his typical soft-shoe shuffle and squirts lubricant all over the place. Of course, he's missing the target and neglecting the area that needs the most lubricant.



Audioholics, the only people/site that have the balls to do what's right!!!

 

[Chu Gai]

I guess the braindead reference is refering to me (lonewolf). It would be interesting to see if AV123 did go under, how soon do you think people that are owed money would be repayed? Probably never. Cult, I don't think so.
Sometimes hate runs too deep. Check yourself.

It's an understandable position you're taking, lonewolf, although it's tough for me to want to justify their continued existence given their recent actions. Creation of some kind of a showroom...why? Moving forward at this particular time with the UFW-HR drivers...why? I have hopes that those owed something like LS-9's who've prepayed and waited for years get their product, but I'm not seeing any movement towards those owed monies. My recommendation for some time has been if you're owed money, contact the appropriate consumer complaints division and/or file suit.

Chu,

I did not mean to imply that convincing potential customers not to purchase from AV123 was in itself the intended goal of the thread. To clarify, my point is that awareness has been and continues to be raised, which allows individuals to make informed decisions. Keeping the information available is what is important. An individual’s decision of whether or not to buy is just one possible outcome.

In my case, the overall situation appeared to be both too risky and too distasteful to do business. I don’t think there is a more powerful statement one can make than voting with your wallet. If AV123 gets the message that business will suffer until the issues are resolved, maximum pressure (short of legal recourse) will have been applied.

Obviously, others have reviewed the same information and come to different conclusions. YMMV.

Shed

Understood and no problem with your decision. Either way, you were reasonably informed.

I'm sorry. I thought that you implied this when you pointed out the MLS-like verbage that JRandall was using. My mistake, I just read too much into a comment you made.

Jim

Well, Jim, JRandall never said things like humbly

 

[Jed M]

It's an understandable position you're taking, lonewolf, although it's tough for me to want to justify their continued existence given their recent actions. Creation of some kind of a showroom...why? Moving forward at this particular time with the UFW-HR drivers...why? I have hopes that those owed something like LS-9's who've prepayed and waited for years get their product, but I'm not seeing any movement towards those owed monies.

Actually Mark had most of us pay for the HR upgrade over a year and a half ago so there are a lot of people on the hook for money there too. I paid $600 for 2 HR kits and ever since it has been 2-4 more weeks. At one point last summer he even told us 2 weeks and then we were informed by a third party that the HR drivers hadn't even been made yet. Make up your own mind if that was a "bone headed mistake" or just a flat out lie...

 

[Chu Gai]

Actually Mark had most of us pay for the HR upgrade over a year and a half ago so there are a lot of people on the hook for money there too. I paid $600 for 2 HR kits and ever since it has been 2-4 more weeks. At one point last summer he even told us 2 weeks and then we were informed by a third party that the HR drivers hadn't even been made yet. Make up your own mind if that was a "bone headed mistake" or just a flat out lie...

Gotcha! It's hard to keep up with who is owed what for how long. I've heard it said that he now has 40 drivers. Hope that moves to some kind of a swift conclusion for all and that performance approaches what many expect it to be.

 

[Mac11700]

Sorry Mac, but I think the most "villainous..and mean spirited...and wrong" actions would be deceiving and stealing from customers and those in need that were promised aid.



Pointing fingers at the victims, or those that discuss the victims claims/issues, strikes me as a tactic for those that don't have a solid leg to stand on.

It's so nice of you.. that you would take what I said to Matt about all of the non-factual BS that has been allowed to be said about Mark..and somehow turn it into bad..Good job on that...What a super way of taking something so completely out of context..that it has given others here a chance to do the same...

I am not pointing my finger at any of the people who are directly effected by what Mark has done here..

I'll say this again..there has been a-lot of BS said on this thread. Some have taken it way too far.While Mark hasn't answered any of the questions put forth yet..at least Gonks post there shows a much better way of being courteous and direct with out resorting to how many here have acted.

Curtis..you said..

I think your view is appreciated. As for being one sided, I am sure MLS would be welcomed here to answer questions and to refute what has been posted.

Really...you really think my view is appreciated?...I sincerely doubt it since folks here have taken what I have said purposely out of context and tried to turn it into an accusation against me for saying anything.

No...folks here don't want anyone saying anything against their rants..no matter how they are presented..no matter how far fetched they are..no matter how wrong they are..They have accused,insinuated,liken the man in so many bad ways...even if he did come here..he would not get a far shake at explaining anything.This thread has been allowed to become so one sided that when anyone says anything against some of the things being said here then they are instantly put down and taken apart..In reality..there is zero objectivity being allowed on here.

In the post proceeding the quote from above..you stated..

I find it very interesting that those that think I am out to harm MLS or AV123 are mostly those that have, in the very least, a personal relationship with the man. I don't lie about issues, and if I make a mistake, I apologize.

There is absolute proof for at least some of the things that MLS has done, yet these same people choose to close their eyes or turn their heads, and continue to believe what they are told by MLS and others on the kool aid.

Maybe you should ask for proof from MLS supporters for what he is doing to correct the problems/issues. I would welcome it, and love to see it.

Where did I target you on being out to harm Mark..or not speaking the truth..?

Have you not seen Gonks post over there...What you said isn't true..folks are asking and haven't turned a blind eye to what has transpired.There..they are acting civil and asking for direct answers..just way different than the muck racking that is being allowed and encouraged here.

As far as I know..folks are asking for proof there..and in person to him when they speak to him.

I know some here will manage to take offense to this post of mine and turn it around somehow and make it look like I am condoning all the things that he has done..but the truth of the matter is I am not doing that. I am trying to be level headed about what and how I say things..There is no " ploy " in my doing this..though some here think so..I've tried to honor the spirit of the sites rules that has been put forth for us to abide by..but some here have been allowed to break them at will to suit their purpose..and that..isn't right.

Take Care Guys

Mac

 

[gonk]

Actually Mark had most of us pay for the HR upgrade over a year and a half ago so there are a lot of people on the hook for money there too. I paid $600 for 2 HR kits and ever since it has been 2-4 more weeks. At one point last summer he even told us 2 weeks and then we were informed by a third party that the HR drivers hadn't even been made yet. Make up your own mind if that was a "bone headed mistake" or just a flat out lie...

I would agree that the product development and production priorities would seem to need to be building LS-9's, finishing and shipping the UFW-12 HR kits, and getting the RSL II really going (since I doubt refunding all the RSL II owners and shelving the project is a realistic option). The other product development hot spots would seem to be the BMF and X-Plosive, but both have now taken a back seat to a whole new sub design. The only reason to push forward on the LS-4 design is to be able to provide prizes for two old raffles, but I would think it could easily be pushed back in the queue some to make room for the RSL II and for production of the LS-9 backlog that remains undelivered. I shudder to even think about the myriad other major buzz-generating development projects (RSC-500, anyone?) and I have no idea how the Strata Max is supposed to fit into any sort of long-term plans since the Strata Mini has been out of production for some time and the center and on-wall partners are a complete mystery.

Others have recently raised an excellent point. Resources are being spent on development of the Strata Max, the new sub, the SWG speaker, and its matching woofer tower. Resources were also reportedly spent on setting up a showroom in Longmont. How does money for those efforts get spent when donations from their forum community are still missing in action? Companies have to move forward, certainly, but they have to do so in a fiscally responsible manner. AV123 has a ton of existing product designs (the Rocket line; presumably the UFW-12 HR soon; the X-series' X-Static, X-Voce, X-LS, X-SLS, and X-CS; the ELT525's; and the LS-6/LS-9). This would seem like a good time to defer large investments in product development, focus on building what you've got, and start working on clearing away some of those very public debts (both refunds and raffles). If nothing else, announcing that you've suspended all product development except for a small group of products to which you've already made commitments would be a good way to demonstrate some actual change in policy and recognition of the problem. The catch there, though, would be that they'd have to stick to their word for a good while. Breaking that promise (as happened with the promises of "no pre-pays for anything ever again") would be very damaging.

 

[cschang]

Curtis..you said..

I think your view is appreciated. As for being one sided, I am sure MLS would be welcomed here to answer questions and to refute what has been posted.

Really...you really think my view is appreciated?...I sincerely doubt it since folks here have taken what I have said purposely out of context and tried to turn it into an accusation against me for saying anything.

No...folks here don't want anyone saying anything against their rants..no matter how they are presented..no matter how far fetched they are..no matter how wrong they are..They have accused,insinuated,liken the man in so many bad ways...even if he did come here..he would not get a far shake at explaining anything.This thread has been allowed to become so one sided that when anyone says anything against some of the things being said here then they are instantly put down and taken apart..In reality..there is zero objectivity being allowed on here.

Well, I am not so sure. Have you acknowledged some of the verifiable wrong doings by MLS? Wouldn't those be characterized as objective? Allowing him to explain is different than asking him for proof. How many times can the dog eat your homework? Remember the old saying "actions speak louder than words". If you can show me a verifiable action that he has taken to right the wrongs of the raffles, then we are making headway.

In the post proceeding the quote from above..you stated..

I find it very interesting that those that think I am out to harm MLS or AV123 are mostly those that have, in the very least, a personal relationship with the man. I don't lie about issues, and if I make a mistake, I apologize.

There is absolute proof for at least some of the things that MLS has done, yet these same people choose to close their eyes or turn their heads, and continue to believe what they are told by MLS and others on the kool aid.

Maybe you should ask for proof from MLS supporters for what he is doing to correct the problems/issues. I would welcome it, and love to see it.

Where did I target you on being out to harm Mark..or not speaking the truth..?

Sorry...it was not specifically directed to you.

 

[Jed M]

Mac, I just wish you could get past the fact that people are really, really pissed at Mark and look at why they are. He has continued to treat us like sh*t. Maybe if the guy answered questions, paid back some money to the charities and quit treating us like we are just some irrational pitchfork crew we wouldn't be so upset at him but he just keeps digging in his heels and telling us to basically just trust him. This guy holds 100% of the responsibility for the contents of this thread. Let me repeat that, 100% of the blame. He is responsible for the civil stuff and the hateful stuff because of the way he chose to treat us. Keep that in mind when you whine about how unfair and full of bs this thread is. So maybe you should spend more time over on AV123 with these type of posts attacking Mark and AV123 for being rude and peddling bs.

so one sided that when anyone says anything against some of the things being said here then they are instantly put down and taken apart..In reality..there is zero objectivity being allowed on here.

Geez Mac, that sounds a whole lot the AV123 forum when you were a moderator.

 

[Chu Gai]

Do you have any kind of handle on the number of people who've prepayed for RSL-II's, gonk?

 

[Matt34]

It's so nice of you.. that you would take what I said to Matt about all of the non-factual BS that has been allowed to be said about Mark..and somehow turn it into bad..Good job on that...What a super way of taking something so completely out of context..that it has given others here a chance to do the same...

I think Mark's chance to get a fair shake or second chance from the community expired a long time ago. He has dragged customers along for YEARS, seriously we are talking years of decite, theft and flat out lying. You can only push people so far and now it's the time for Mark to prove something, not the victims nor the community because frankly, with everything that is on the table, the "non-factual BS" as you put it, is quite believable with what information is already available.

P.S- It's not my job or any other of the moderators to "fact check" each post.

 

[gonk]

I am trying to be level headed about what and how I say things..There is no " ploy " in my doing this..though some here think so..I've tried to honor the spirit of the sites rules that has been put forth for us to abide by..but some here have been allowed to break them at will to suit their purpose..and that..isn't right.

I've corresponded with Mac recently regarding AV123. Based on that, I want to offer a personal observation: Mac is not a blindly loyal lap-dog in this. There was a time when he was very vocally supportive of Mark and AV123, but he made comments in AV123's forum going back quite a ways regarding criticism he has directed at Mark privately and acknowledging that Mark has needed to make major changes for a long, long time now. It's also worth noting his recent decision to step back from being moderator at AV123's forum. Just my $0.02...

 

[cschang]

I've corresponded with Mac recently regarding AV123. Based on that, I want to offer a personal observation: Mac is not a blindly loyal lap-dog in this. There was a time when he was very vocally supportive of Mark and AV123, but he made comments in AV123's forum going back quite a ways regarding criticism he has directed at Mark privately and acknowledging that Mark has needed to make major changes for a long, long time now. It's also worth noting his recent decision to step back from being moderator at AV123's forum. Just my $0.02...

I don't think he is "blindly loyal lap-dog" either. I just would like to know what actions of MLS shows the willingness to right the issues.

 

[Chu Gai]

I can buy that, gonk. Perhaps Mac can specifically point to comments that were made that he feels need additional support.

 

[gonk]

Do you have any kind of handle on the number of people who've prepayed for RSL-II's, gonk?

The original announcement (re-posted August 2006, couldn't find the original post) listed just two beta testers, but the update thread (August 2006) mentioned expanding it. On page 8, he specifically indicates that they expanded it to a dozen (or $72,000 in pre-pays, at least some of which were delivered about three years ago) and lists some of the screen names. I've only skimmed it looking for something along those lines, and I'm not even half-way through, but it's an interesting read so far. Lots of hints of being really close, dating back to late 2006.

Edit: I found the original RSL-II announcement post here, in July 2006.

 

[gonk]

I don't think he is "blindly loyal lap-dog" either. I just would like to know what actions of MLS shows the willingness to right the issues.

That's one I can't answer, as I've tried and failed to find reasonable cause for having faith in Mark's promises. Without such faith, the written word (forum posts, emails, PM's, etc.) doesn't get you very far.

 

[Chu Gai]

Gonk, I take it being a beta tester you had to pony up something like 6K, right? Also, I read in that thread that he mentioned Arnie and Bascom (King I presume). I take it that they somehow were partners in this little venture and if so, do you know if they made any sort of financial committment? Lastly, what are the odds that a thread where MLS participates in doesn't have him sick or injured in some way?

 

[gonk]

Gonk, I take it being a beta tester you had to pony up something like 6K, right?

That's my understanding, yes.

Also, I read in that thread that he mentioned Arnie and Bascom (King I presume). I take it that they somehow were partners in this little venture and if so, do you know if they made any sort of financial committment?

I know they were planning to offer the speaker through a separate company (it wouldn't be sold by AV123). There was even talk of having a web site up late last year, as I recall. That's all I know, though.

Lastly, what are the odds that a thread where MLS participates in doesn't have him sick or injured in some way?

I'd have to know how many pages long the thread was, how many days transpired between original post and most recent post, and how many times Mark posted in it. The "open to interpretation" thread is two pages long and 48 hours old, and he's unscathed so far, but he also has only one post in it.

 

[stevo238]

"just way different than the muck racking that is being allowed and encouraged here."


Take Care Guys

Mac[/QUOTE]

Muckraking? The man is a thief Mac. Tell me how he isn't? Muckraking is the least we can do and some muckrakers aren't all bad. MLS is a cheat and a liar. I know that's harsh but that's what he is. Out of decorum, would you prefer I said he's a confidence man with a penchant for telling tall tales? Just wouldn't be accurate.

Stealing money is bad enough Mac, but doing a bit of muckraking to get to the bottom of this is worse? Think of it as therapy for the poor folks who were taken in by the confidence man.

Bartender! I'll take a double shot of muckraking. Cheers Mac.