DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[cschang]

As to Mac11700's defamation ploy, consider for a moment, who has harmed AV123/MLS's reputation? Me? Curtis? Gonk? Django1? Or MLS himself.

I find it very interesting that those that think I am out to harm MLS or AV123 are mostly those that have, in the very least, a personal relationship with the man. I don't lie about issues, and if I make a mistake, I apologize.

There is absolute proof for at least some of the things that MLS has done, yet these same people choose to close their eyes or turn their heads, and continue to believe what they are told by MLS and others on the kool aid.

Maybe you should ask for proof from MLS supporters for what he is doing to correct the problems/issues. I would welcome it, and love to see it.

 

[cschang]

One thing I had always thought about here..is that one sided observations wasn't accepted as the norm,and folks were allowed even encouraged to have different views of things. I am not defending Mark for the bone head mistakes he has done...but I am saying 2 wrongs don't make a right..I apologize for thinking that it mattered..and I am also sorry to have pointed out this forums rules regarding what is happening here to you

I think your view is appreciated. As for being one sided, I am sure MLS would be welcomed here to answer questions and to refute what has been posted.

 

[Chu Gai]

I think Chu Gai called this correctly:

JRandall = MLS

It's a call I never made, sorry.

 

[GirgleMirt]

And what's again ironic, is that this thread exists because av123.com censors his own forums and prevents this discussion from taking place there. Everyone who posts any of the issues discussed here get their messages deleted and then banned on their forums. The same thing happens on other forums, for example, avsforum.com. Gonk addressed all of this in his post on av123.com, ironically.

Again, schifter lied and said he didn't actively censor the forum. What a joke. He closed it to prevent people from airing their issues, in other words, censor the forum posters, because it got so bad it was hurting their business, so many people voiced their issues with them, that it hurt their business... But it wasn't the disgruntled customers who had hurt the company, it was THE COMPANY who mistreated their customers and let it go to that point. All of the blame is on them.

Don't know how you can't seem to fathom this mac... Really, again, people are a real mystery to me. Did you miss all of that? And the part where Schifter stole charity money?

 

[Mac11700]

How about this Mac. MLS should close the Av123 Forum (again) until all issues are resolved. Of course that will never happen....the Forum closing that is, barring a business shutdown. The business, what it is, is still dependent on it. And I think it's safe to say no one will ever know the real truth behind just how much money was skimmed off from those Raffles, so that issue will never really be resolved either.

What really bothers me though Mac is that every time you have what I believe is a revelation of common sense, you always let me down.

Actually...I was against the forums being opened back up..at least until all of the issues had been resolved..I was/am also dead set against accepting pre-payments for items...There are a lot of things Mark has done I am against..but am in no position then..as now to correct..

I am not against speaking out against anyone who has done me wrong..but..I am also in the opinion that many of the things here should have never been allowed to stand..and that if rules and policies here and there aren't being fairly enforced..then the objectivity is being skewed...and this is on both sides of the equation..for or against..fan boy or detractor..

 

[Mac11700]

And what's again ironic, is that this thread exists because av123.com censors his own forums and prevents this discussion from taking place there. Everyone who posts any of the issues discussed here get their messages deleted and then banned on their forums. The same thing happens on other forums, for example, avsforum.com. Gonk addressed all of this in his post on av123.com, ironically.

Again, schifter lied and said he didn't actively censor the forum. What a joke. He closed it to prevent people from airing their issues, in other words, censor the forum posters, because it got so bad it was hurting their business, so many people voiced their issues with them, that it hurt their business... But it wasn't the disgruntled customers who had hurt the company, it was THE COMPANY who mistreated their customers and let it go to that point. All of the blame is on them.

Don't know how you can't seem to fathom this mac... Really, again, people are a real mystery to me. Did you miss all of that? And the part where Schifter stole charity money?

I won't post the link to the open dialog that Gonk has initiated there cause I don't think it allowed....but..I am quite sure you know by now that things are being discussed and post are not disappearing in that thread..

 

[Chu Gai]

As far as I can tell Mac, there hasn't been any deletions in that thread. Words are being chosen very carefully in efforts to ensure that.

 

[cschang]

I won't post the link to the open dialog that Gonk has initiated there cause I don't think it allowed....but..I am quite sure you know by now that things are being discussed and post are not disappearing in that thread..

So far, MLS has only posted once in that thread, and hasn't answered any of the questions surrounding monies/product owed to individuals or charities.

Do you think he will?

 

[GirgleMirt]

I won't post the link to the open dialog that Gonk has initiated there cause I don't think it allowed....but..I am quite sure you know by now that things are being discussed and post are not disappearing in that thread..

Yet...

"Schifter once left one such thread opened, just to see if he could."

What do you think about his excuses for deleting threads, banning people, in other words, censorship, and his claims that he has done no such thing? I find it laughable. Once again, just an attempt to save face. So his forums are now known as extremely heavily censored. So what does he do? Claim that was never such sensor, and for laughs, leave one thread opened to 'prove' his lie. Is he really fooling anyone? Maybe his brain dead sect members... Besides that, I don't think so.

Again, he's an hypocrite and a liar. What a despicable character. I really, really, have trouble understanding how people can't see that. Just for fun, create a thread, ask him when he'll finally give back the stolen charity money. It's been months and months since he's been caught. See how nice a guy he is, and see if he really censors or not... And really, what's so bad about asking when charity money, donated by many generous people, will actually be donated to the cause, instead of lining up his own pockets? But no, you'd be the bad guy here, you're picking a fight, stealing the charity was fine, asking about it... bad bad man! You're hurting his business! Why don't people let him steal the charity money in peace?

Couple years ago, if people had exposed another charlatan who had stolen charity money, do you think he'd censor threads trying to get these issues resolved? Of course not, only in this case, he's the charlatan, and that make things very different, and of course, deleting such threads and preventing people from talking about it, is not censorship in any possible way...

 

[gonk]

I won't post the link to the open dialog that Gonk has initiated there cause I don't think it allowed....but..I am quite sure you know by now that things are being discussed and post are not disappearing in that thread..

I posted the link last night back on page 116. (This thread's been busy this evening - that was quite a few pages ago...)

 

[Shed]

Some of the things said about MLS are absolutely unproven. Some things seem irrefutable. But, this thread is very onesided and I for one would welcome anyone who would defend MLS in a level headed and factual way.

I agree that this discussion should try to remain fair and balanced (© Fox News). I admit to laughing at the satire and insults that have occasionally been hurled at MLS/AV123, but these have sometimes gone over the top.

These threads are accomplishing their intended goals. I cancelled an existing order, and I decided NOT to order the MFW-15 during the re-introduction special because of the issues that have been highlighted here. While I enjoy satire and even crude humor, I don’t think their use strengthens the case for restitution. This could be especially true for someone that is new to the forum, without the benefit of having followed the discussions of the issues at length.

Shed

 

[SnowmaNick]

...
Discussing provable facts is one thing Matt...allowing all the rest of the crap to be said is villainous..and mean spirited...and wrong,....

Sorry Mac, but I think the most "villainous..and mean spirited...and wrong" actions would be deceiving and stealing from customers and those in need that were promised aid.

MLS has stated he has not paid out funds that were not his to keep, the victims have come forward, individual customers (lots of them, who have their own first hand accounts) have stated that other monies due them through refund were not paid, MLS has not denied this and has acknowledged several of their claims. Others have paid for goods that have yet to be received, a point of consternation that even you have made a point of raising. MLS has thoroughly, through his own actions and words, destroyed his reputation and the image that he and his company strove for.

Regarding the defamation claim, in civil law the rules state a preponderance of evidence needs to be heard and established, so far the accusers have been far outpacing MLS/AV123 on that front by providing means to independently verify funds were not received, individual accounts of wrong doing, evidence of laws broken, etc.

Libel and slander are both civil issues, so both would fall under the preponderance of the evidence requirements. As would any other civil suits such as breach of contract, etc.

"Preponderance of the evidence n. the greater weight of the evidence required in a civil (non-criminal) lawsuit for the trier of fact (jury or judge without a jury) to decide in favor of one side or the other. This preponderance is based on the more convincing evidence and its probable truth or accuracy, and not on the amount of evidence. Thus, one clearly knowledgeable witness may provide a preponderance of evidence over a dozen witnesses with hazy testimony, or a signed agreement with definite terms may outweigh opinions or speculation about what the parties intended. Preponderance of the evidence is required in a civil case and is contrasted with "beyond a reasonable doubt," which is the more severe test of evidence required to convict in a criminal trial. No matter what the definition stated in various legal opinions, the meaning is somewhat subjective." (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/preponderance+of+the+evidence )

Where MLS could stake his claim is the "knowledgeable witness" field, but to date he has not provided any substantiating evidence to back his claims.

Pointing fingers at the victims, or those that discuss the victims claims/issues, strikes me as a tactic for those that don't have a solid leg to stand on.

Mods: If this post crosses any lines please let me know and I will delete it.

 

[gonk]

Yet...

"Schifter once left one such thread opened, just to see if he could."

What do you think about his excuses for deleting threads, banning people, in other words, censorship, and his claims that he has done no such thing? I find it laughable. Once again, just an attempt to save face. So his forums are now known as extremely heavily censored. So what does he do? Claim that was never such sensor, and for laughs, leave one thread opened to 'prove' his lie. Is he really fooling anyone? Maybe his brain dead sect members... Besides that, I don't think so.

I personally don't think their plan of "scorched earth" forum moderation was ever practical in the long term. I think one reason that we've seen a number of posts survive this week has less to do with carefully chosen words (although we've seen plenty of those) and more to do with the inevitable failure of the whole policy. After all, a number of straightforward, gently-worded, seemingly mild posts got flushed back in August. I suspect that a post like the one I made last night would have led to a ban less than a month ago, with any reply from MLS being via PM.

They may have hoped to be able to operate that way for long enough to be able to claim resolution to their outstanding issues, but with the scale of the issues facing them it simply couldn't last forever - not, at least, without severely hampering the forum's effectiveness as a marketing tool. That's why I remain amazed that they even tried it in the first place. Re-opening the forum was a bad idea. Attempting to delete all inconvenient questions afterward was a worse idea. If nothing else goes wrong, you have created a perpetual race: intercept posts and remove them before they get noticed, issue bans to repeat offenders, and deal with those members after the bans expire, all while trying to provide the appearance of a happy, trustworthy, jovial environment for newcomers. If you blink or take a break from monitoring the forum, a few posts last long enough to raise questions with members who you are trying to get business from, and if you delete the posts after they've been read you just add to those questions. That doesn't even take into account discussions that start out on the edge of requiring deletion and slip slowly across that line. The SWG thread was one of the latter cases, I think, but there may have been a post or two that would have gone away if they'd been seen soon enough. By yesterday, the discussion was too far along and too visible to simply delete - that would have threatened the forum's usefulness as a marketing tool even more than letting it remain.

 

[Soundman]

I posted the link last night back on page 116. (This thread's been busy this evening - that was quite a few pages ago...)

Nice post over there, Gonk. But do you really believe MLS in his reply back to you when he says:

I LOVE my customers and I ache when something isn't perfect.

Seriously?!

 

[MinusTheBear]

I don't know wither this thread would be here or not Matt..what I do find kind of ironic is how easy it is to allow all of what is being said now..even when your own forum policy states something entirely different..If you were looking for a typical Internet flame forum, you're in the wrong place, and it's probably best if you not waste either your time or ours by applying to post.

I am also sorry..I didn't think asking for it to be moved into the correct forum was asking for it's deletion..

One thing I had always thought about here..is that one sided observations wasn't accepted as the norm,and folks were allowed even encouraged to have different views of things. I am not defending Mark for the bone head mistakes he has done...but I am saying 2 wrongs don't make a right..I apologize for thinking that it mattered..and I am also sorry to have pointed out this forums rules regarding what is happening here to you

So you have no frame of reference here, Mac. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know... (I hope you guys get this one)

If you have been around this forum for a while you would understand that Matt34 was one of the biggest supporters of AV123 in the community for many years discussing, recommending and posting pictures and reviews of his AV123 products. To say the moderators have it out for them is bs.You would already know this information with the thousands of posts you have on this forum

 

[NicolasKL]

Discussing provable facts is one thing Matt...allowing all the rest of the crap to be said is villainous..and mean spirited...and wrong,

The 1st amendment is villainous, mean spirited, and wrong? News to me.

 

[Matt34]

As far as I can tell Mac, there hasn't been any deletions in that thread. Words are being chosen very carefully in efforts to ensure that.

There has been a couple.

 

[gonk]

There has been a couple.

Interesting. I hadn't spotted any posts being deleted from that thread, but I only checked in on it a couple times yesterday. Certainly wouldn't be hard for me to have missed a few.

 

[Chu Gai]

I agree that this discussion should try to remain fair and balanced (© Fox News). I admit to laughing at the satire and insults that have occasionally been hurled at MLS/AV123, but these have sometimes gone over the top.

These threads are accomplishing their intended goals. I cancelled an existing order, and I decided NOT to order the MFW-15 during the re-introduction special because of the issues that have been highlighted here. While I enjoy satire and even crude humor, I don’t think their use strengthens the case for restitution. This could be especially true for someone that is new to the forum, without the benefit of having followed the discussions of the issues at length.

Shed

With respect to myself, I don't see the intended goal as to have people cancel or not order from AV123. At least I don't think I've specifically urged people to do so publically. I want people to get a picture of the financial health of the company as well as counter perceptions that this is a quality run operation. I'd like them to know that MLS doesn't simply stretch the truth, he fabricates it and if you believe the fabrication you get a distorted view of AV123 and its capabilities. They need a realisic view of whether their purchase is worth what they paid and how the company deals with potential issues that may arise now and in the future.

What they've seen is it may depend on what the issue is. If it's a bum driver or a bum amp for an MFW, likely they're OK. If it's a bum amp for an older product, they'll read that they may have to wait for a long time or might even be SOL. They hopefully will understand that prepays can be a risky proposition and if it's for a product that's soon to be released, soon may be months away or soon may be never. They also realize there's a disconnect between the MLS is a good guy and the actual benevolence of MLS. How they use that information is up to them. If you feel great about buying a product from them, good for you. If you don't, good for you.

While the purchase of any product - a table cloth at Walmart, a car from Chrysler, a product from AVS - entails the risk of dissatisfaction, how the outfit handles that dissatisfaction has a strong bearing not only upon whether you'll be satisfied, but whether they're worth anybody's time in considering.

Satire, what can I say.

 

[eomcall]

What a laff! Did you even read the first post of this thread?


People like this fascinate me. No matter how Mark Schifter spits in their faces by constantly ignoring every issue week after week (months and months... Years and years?).... They're still there to have faith in the man and continue to plead with him to do good...

How can people be so naive? Take just this one issue: He stole charity money. He's been caught. He's done NOTHING but pretend like he's sorry. Hello? The guy has the cash, he built himself a brand new show room, he paid 2 months severance to an employee he fired... He just doesn't want to give back the stolen charity money back. And nobody knows how many other tens of thousands of dollars he's stolen from other charities...

But, just like the Energizer bunny who keeps going and going, well, they keep pleading and pleading and hoping and hoping... Wake up and take a good look at the situation!!! The guy was caught, and still he continues to try to evade everything.

Anyhow... I don't understand people...


This guy can't be a real poster.


Again, what the hell is wrong with people... These brain dead people seem perfectly ok that Schifter has stolen what, just from what is know and has been verified, >35000$ of charity money, but oooh, you shouldn't talk about it because it might hurt the company! Yeah sure, instead, we should all buy more stuff and send more charity money, hell, make a charity for Schifter, so that we can help this nice fellow!

And let's not talk about all of those other people who are owed money, products, etc... Yeah these might hurt the business, let's keep them hidden under the rug, let's delete every thread which concerns any of these legitimate issues, because it might hurt the company... It's not censorship because it's a private forum...

I can't even read page 2, or I'm going to throw up... What the hell is wrong with people!!!

Cult... These people are truly in a cult...

I guess the braindead reference is refering to me (lonewolf). It would be interesting to see if AV123 did go under, how soon do you think people that are owed money would be repayed? Probably never. Cult, I don't think so.
Sometimes hate runs too deep. Check yourself.