The Guide to HD Audio with a HTPC - How to Get TrueHD and DTS HD Master

s162216

s162216

Full Audioholic
As I have noticed so many threads asking how to get HD audio from Blu Rays and HD-DVD's out of a HTPC, I have decided to create this little guide abut how to get the full proper potential of Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus and DTS HD Master; as well as additionally explaining why you may not be able to get it on your HTPC.

I hope that this will clear up any issues people have about this problem so to reduce the amount of threads asking pretty much the same question.

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1. Why HD Audio does not Automatically come out of every HTPC?

There are two main reasons for this:

  • Lack of HDMI
  • HDCP

Lack of HDMI

HDMI is the only way to get HD audio as bitstream or LPCM. Mostly this is because of bandwidth, (Coax and Optical S/PDIF don't have enough) so HDMI is needed if you want to send more than two channels to your reciever. Just as bad, there is the slightly irritating problem of High Definition Copy Protection (HDCP) which has been forced on Blu Ray disks and HD-DVD's by the major studios in an attempt to curb piracy of HD media. This will be discussed below.

HDCP

HDCP is IMO just a complex method of making it as hard as possible for you to get HD content.
Really though it is rather simple - both ends (i.e the graphics/sound and the monitor or HDTV/reciever) have to be HDCP compatiable, or the video and audio quality is reduced to DVD and CD quality respectively. The content is encrypted and unless both ends can understand and decode this encryption and 'handshake' correctly with each other, then it does not allow HD output.

HDCP dictates that all digital HD content must go over HDMI version 1.3 or better (or DVI as it is related to HDMI although not many ports are HDCP compatiable). Note the use of the word digital as HD audio and video will go fine over analogue connections such as VGA D-sub, component and analogue audio jacks. This will be discussed in more detail later on.

Not very many soundcards are HDCP compatiable (At the moment only one type and they cost ££$$). This will be talked about below.

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2. How can I get HD Audio Then?

Well at the moment currently there are two ways of getting HD audio from a HTPC:

  • Get an ASUS Xonar HDCP compatiable sound card
  • Decode the Audio by Software and Output on the Analogue Audio Jacks

Get an ASUS Zonar HDCP compatiable sound card

At the moment currently, the ASUS Xonar soundcard is the only soundcard that can output HD audio as its HDMI port is HDCP compatiable. It also has a whole host of features such as Dolby Digital Live and Dolby Headphone so it is very useful for things such as games that are not encoded in Dolby Digital and cannot be output over S/PDIF.
However with all good things there is a catch, the Xonar costs about £150 which obviously is going to set you back quite a bit, but it is curently the only way to bitstream HD audio to a reciever.

Heres a link to the Asus site for the Zonar:

http://uk.asus.com/Product.aspx?P_ID=wIxyLFT9vTWHLHk8

The method below is substantially cheaper mind.

Decode the Audio by Software and Output on the Analogue Audio Jacks

If you have a Blu Ray softare player such as WinDVD or PowerDVD then you can decode the HD audio using the CPU so it can be output over the analogue jacks to the analogue passthrough on the reciever, although you will need a soundcard or onboard soundcard with 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 analogue outputs.
The software should automatically decode the audio, so all you need to do is hook you reciever up and you have HD audio. It can be a bit fiddily connecting up all the jacks as some will be RCA type and others stereo jack, so you will need some adaptors. Usually in my experience you don't get a jack or RCA to each channel either as they will be mixed up with each other, so refer to your soundcard or motherboards manual.
If you only have stereo outputs then look in the cheating section below for some useful tips.

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3. How to Cheat

There are a few unorthordox ways of getting HD audio:

  • Downmixing HD Audio to Stereo and Sending over S/PDIF
  • Using Dolby Pro Logic II on Analogue Stereo
  • Stripping the HDCP (Theoretical)

Downmixing HD Audio to Stereo and Sending over S/PDIF

In WinDVD and PowerDVD at least, there is an option to downmix HD audio to stereo as this is small enough to be passed over S/PDIF to the reciever as PCM. If you look in the sound options somewhere there should be an option to do this.
Obviously this is useful if you only have S/PDIF. After it reaches the reciever you can do one of two things:

  1. Leave it as it is in Stereo
  2. Use Dolby Pro Logic II on the Audo to get 5.1 or 7.1

The first is the best option if you want just pure, great sound, but the second allows you to have it in surround once more.
The problem with the second option though is that by the time it has been transformed into all the channels, you may as well just use Dolby Digital or DTS as it will not be discrete sound and proberly will only sound slightly better.

Using Dolby Pro Logic II on Analogue Stereo

If you only have a stereo analogue output, then using the Dolby Pro Logic II as above could make it slightly better.
WinDVD and Power DVD have the option to encode the content in Pro Logic II before outputting it as analogue audio and this may inprove the surround quality if you use this option because the other channels will be matrixed into the stereo sound for the reciever to decode.

Stripping the HDCP (Theoretical)

I hear you wonder:

"If I could get rid of the HDCP then all of my problems would be solved..."

Whilst yes that would work if you don't have HDCP equipment, unfortunately for sound it is not possible, but with video it is. I have yet to see a HDCP stripper for sound as all the ones I have seen only do video. You won't see them advertised either as the HDCP creators and endorsers will sue the manufactuer for quite a bit.

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Anyway, thanks to anyone that reads this and I hope it helps you.

All information is correct to my knowledge, but if anything is not, discuss it below. :)
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
Why no mention of PAP in this article? Isn't that the main reason that even with HDMI bitstreaming video cards that we still don't get the lossless audio codecs?
 
s162216

s162216

Full Audioholic
Forgot to mention about that - sorry:(.

I have been helping my friend to get his HTPC working with lossless HD audio and as I found out the best way of getting HD audio for him was with the Xonar, I have never had a problem with PAP

Nvidia cards don't have an integrated sound controller anyway, I have it running like this at the moment for him:

GTX 260 DVI out --> DVI to HDMI adaptor --> HDMI input of Zonar --> Audio and Video out via HDMI out of Zonar to reciever

O.k, I will explain it then here as I can't edit it into the guide:

Protected Audio/Video Path

When the Blu Ray or HD-DVD is played, the content is encrypted with AACS so you can't just copy it. When that is decrypted by the software player it is essentially unprotected sitting in the main memory, so it is re-encrypted with AES and decoded by the graphics card so that the HDCP protection can take over.



The problem is that the graphics card can understand the video portion of the AES and decrypt it, but not the audio, so you are stuck with lossy CD quality audio. There are no graphics cards at the moment that can decode it either, so you need the Xonar and do it as I showed above or be stuck with lossy audio.

Hope that clears that point up, thanks for raising it.:)
 
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GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
Is there no software solution to allow passthrough of the lossless codecs so that these expensive audio cards don't have to be purchased? Do you think in the near future there will be software or a singe card solution that will allow unmolested audio/video to pass through? It just seems silly that someone can make software to rip the blu ray discs, but can't make software to allow the lossless audio track to be bitstreamed by something like a Radeon 4350's HDMI output.
 
s162216

s162216

Full Audioholic
The reason that no current graphics cards support it are because when the latest series of cards from ATI and Nvidia were designed and specified, audio was not put in the spec as the HDMI 1.3a specification was not complete and as so all of the cards lack a PAP, it is hardware based so you can't just tack it on as software, it would make the entire design of the card different.

The GTX 300 series and next gen ATI cards likely will support it though.

The Xonar is proberly a worthwhile purchase anyway as it has hundreds of options for both sound and video. Dolby Digital Live for example is only supported on a few cards and the Xonar has about every sort of technology from every place, Dolby, DTS, SRS. You can even replace the op amps for the analogue out for something better if you wany.
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
I just hope when the next gen. video cards come out that support the bitstreaming of lossless audio, that they aren't overpriced just because of that. But for now I'll just enjoy the card that I have, and hope for a new Direct X 11 card with lossless audio support that will work really well with Win. 7.
 
krzywica

krzywica

Audioholic Samurai
From what I have heard you CAN send HD audio from the HD4xxx AMD cards with the proper method/settings/player. MPC-HC is supposed to be able to do it.....I will play around with it when I get home tonight if I get a chance as I have a 4870, 4340, and 4770. All of which have onboard audio.

This however is only the case the a PAP is not needed...IE, after the HDCP or region has been stripped....I do this now with my NMT.....which I don't think has a PAP, but I'm not sure.
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
Let me know what you find out, I have a Radeon 4350 and would love to get lossless from it without having to buy an expensive sound card.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
The reason that no current graphics cards support it are because when the latest series of cards from ATI and Nvidia were designed and specified, audio was not put in the spec as the HDMI 1.3a specification was not complete and as so all of the cards lack a PAP, it is hardware based so you can't just tack it on as software, it would make the entire design of the card different.

The GTX 300 series and next gen ATI cards likely will support it though.

The Xonar is proberly a worthwhile purchase anyway as it has hundreds of options for both sound and video. Dolby Digital Live for example is only supported on a few cards and the Xonar has about every sort of technology from every place, Dolby, DTS, SRS. You can even replace the op amps for the analogue out for something better if you wany.
But the glaring hole currently is no room correction like Audessy EQ is available.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Well, if you look on the ATI website, you will see that they say their cards are capable of DTS-HD MA & TrueHD.

But in the fine print, it says that it requires a sound card (like the Xonar HDAV1.3) and the software (like TMT3).

Take home message: as of today, you can only get TrueHD & DTS-HD MA via the Asus HDAV1.3 sound card and the use of TMT software.

Can you get TrueHD & DTS-HD MA without the additional SOUND card in the future? Nobody KNOWS. Everyone is GUESSING.:D
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
I guess that's why they say those HDMI video cards can pass 7.1 audio, and we all know the only true discreet 7.1 audio comes from the lossless codecs, since dts-es discreet 6.1 is the only non lossless codec that has more than 5.1 true channels without the aid of post processing.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Can I just make the comment, that for an old timer like me, this is a very informative thread. Just what is required to make this forum the place to visit.

I think the mods should seriously consider making it a sticky, so it it is handy and can be updated as time goes by.

For all of the above reasons I have held off getting into the computer video arena. However I'm getting a lot of pressure from my two son engineers, to build a supremely powerful noiseless liquid cooled computer. We will have to see about that.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
powerful noiseless liquid cooled computer.
That would be nice - a fanless chassis w/ liquid cooling. That will cost you some pretty pennies.:D

IMO Powerful & Noiseless do Not go hand in hand.:D

For example, a truely "powerful" Graphics card will almost always have a built-in fan.

Every CPU requires a fan, and the most "powerful" CPUs (like Intel's) will have those fans blowing quite a bit due to HEAT.

Fans produce some noise.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
That would be nice - a fanless chassis w/ liquid cooling. That will cost you some pretty pennies.:D

IMO Powerful & Noiseless do Not go hand in hand.:D

For example, a truely "powerful" Graphics card will almost always have a built-in fan.

Every CPU requires a fan, and the most "powerful" CPUs (like Intel's) will have those fans blowing quite a bit due to HEAT.

Fans produce some noise.
My two sons assure me they can get rid of all fans and heat sink the processors to a liquid cooling system.
 
s162216

s162216

Full Audioholic
My two sons assure me they can get rid of all fans and heat sink the processors to a liquid cooling system.
Even if you get a water cooling system you need fans to cool the radiator, it won't just cool on its own. There is is no such thing (IMO) as a good system that is entirely fanless. I use at the moment aircooling with a Zalman CNPS-7000C CPU cooler and some Scyth case fans that push 110 CFM but are 37db, which is barable. In plan to add some noise proofing foam to deaden it a bit as well.

My single core system produces a lot less heat than todays quad and dual core systems so I don't need as much cooling, but I overclock so I want it as cool as possible and as reasonably as possible.

BTW TLS Guy, it nice knowing my little 'article' has helped and is informative - I just wrote it as I have put the same stuff in so many threads with people askign the same question. Thanks.
 
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Nemo128

Nemo128

Audioholic Field Marshall
Even if you get a water cooling system you need fans to cool the radiator, it won't just cool on its own. There is is no such thing (IMO) as a good system that is entirely fanless.
There are ways to do it completely passively. It would cost far more than any sane person would want to spend. Doable, yeah, but worthwhile, heck no.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
There are ways to do it completely passively. It would cost far more than any sane person would want to spend. Doable, yeah, but worthwhile, heck no.
That is the exact problem. I hate being on the bleeding edge. The computer I have now is very quiet, with fans from stop PC noise. Much quieter than the HVAC, which its self is very quiet.



Trouble is a I have a son who is a development engineer.
 
Nemo128

Nemo128

Audioholic Field Marshall
Trouble is a I have a son who is a development engineer.
It's what we do. :D

To the common man, if it ain't broke don't fix it. To the engineer, if it ain't broke it doesn't have enough features yet. ;):cool:
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
It's what we do. :D

To the common man, if it ain't broke don't fix it. To the engineer, if it ain't broke it doesn't have enough features yet. ;):cool:
You hit it right on the nail!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
It's what we do. :D

To the common man, if it ain't broke don't fix it. To the engineer, if it ain't broke it doesn't have enough features yet. ;):cool:
Yeah, and here's my problem:

If there are still expansion slots and HDD slots available, then something is wrong and I must fill them all up!:eek::D
 
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