J

JAMS

Junior Audioholic
Ok Test Done

Hi dragon,ive not heard any difference since i bi-wired the L&R front!
I was informed that bi-wire would open up the sound but i cant tell you it did as im now going to unbi-wire these infinity beta 50s as soon as possible!!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Hi dragon,ive not heard any difference since i bi-wired the L&R front!
I was informed that bi-wire would open up the sound but i cant tell you it did as im now going to unbi-wire these infinity beta 50s as soon as possible!!
Bi-wiring does not bypass the crossover. As you found out bi-wiring is just a long jumper between the terminals, and quite a useless endeavor.

Bi-wring is promoted by individuals with no schooling in physics. There is no plausible explanation of benefit in physics.
 
J

JAMS

Junior Audioholic
Whew u can be smug

Hi,i guess you should know a little bit huh,what a nice studio!
Yep im going too de-bi-wire soonest,and i really didnt know why i listened too the klipsch guy who says it works wonders! Im glad the x/over wasnt defeated or i would be sorry!
Whew, what a octupus behind your gear,scads of cables!
Nice gigantic natural wood audio rack from heaven!
whoosh!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Bi-wiring does not bypass the crossover.
Agree.

As you found out bi-wiring is just a long jumper between the terminals, and quite a useless endeavor.
Agree again, but it definitely is not just a long jumper between the terminals unless you leave the short jumpers (at the speakers) connected.

Bi-wring is promoted by individuals with no schooling in physics. There is no plausible explanation of benefit in physics.
This I am not sure, benefit or not, you must know enough physics to know that technically when you bi-wire properly the crossover is split thereby allowing mostly higher frequency signals in one wire and mostly lower frequency signal in the other.:) I had read one article on the internet that tried to prove the otherwise but his convoluted math & cct theory demo was done incorrectly.

As I said before, I do agree that the physical phenomena in the bi-wire scheme may not translate into any audible benefits as some suggested or experienced. I personally cannot hear a difference but I can't hear the difference between a NAD and a Denon within the same price group either. ......I just realized this is a very old thread but what the heck I'll let this go.:D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Agree.



Agree again, but it definitely is not just a long jumper between the terminals unless you leave the short jumpers (at the speakers) connected.



This I am not sure, benefit or not, you must know enough physics to know that technically when you bi-wire properly the crossover is split thereby allowing mostly higher frequency signals in one wire and mostly lower frequency signal in the other.:) I had read one article on the internet that tried to prove the otherwise but his convoluted math & cct theory demo was done incorrectly.

As I said before, I do agree that the physical phenomena in the bi-wire scheme may not translate into any audible benefits as some suggested or experienced. I personally cannot hear a difference but I can't hear the difference between a NAD and a Denon within the same price group either. ......I just realized this is a very old thread but what the heck I'll let this go.:D
Agree again, but it definitely is not just a long jumper between the terminals unless you leave the short jumpers (at the speakers) connected.

Think about it Peng, and draw it out. Once the jumpers are removed, then the two wires are electrically long jumpers. What you have in essence is a long jumpers connected to the speaker sockets. The signal is the same in both wires but the power transfer is different. If you use one wire and jumpers then the jumper has small power transfer if you connect to the bass terminals, and a larger one if you connect to the HF terminals.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Think about it Peng, and draw it out. Once the jumpers are removed, then the two wires are electrically long jumpers. What you have in essence is a long jumpers connected to the speaker sockets.
Not true, please see my lengthy response below.

The signal is the same in both wires but the power transfer is different.
Sorry but this is totally false!


I did this many times here before but let me do it for you just one more time out of respect. The signals in the two pairs are NOT the same.!

Yes, let's draw it out! Forget about the power transfer due to wire size etc. for now. Focus on the signal path as follow:

1. At the common terminals of the amp, the amp will see 2 pair of wires.

2. At the speaker end the small jumper or link is removed, splitting the internal crossover so the high and the low are no longer tied together via the external link.

3. The crossover now becomes two separately connected network between the separated hi/lo speaker terminals and the speaker voice coils.

4. So now the two (bi-wire) pair of speaker wires and the two (hi/lo crossover network) and speakers (tweeter/bass) each present to the amp two different loads in terms of impedance characteristic.

5. The pair of wire for the bass driver(s) will offer high impedance to high frequencies and low impedance for low frequencies. It therefore will draw mostly the bass signal and reject the high frequency signal.

6. The pair of wire for the tweeter will offer high impedance to low frequency signals and low impedance to high frequency signals. It will therefore draw mostly high frequency signals and reject the bass signals.

So it is not correct to say the signals in the two pair of wires are the same. They are not, not in frequency spectrum and not in magnitude. From 5. and 6. above you may agree that the tweeter will receive its preferred high frequency signals all the way from the amp's output terminals to the voice coil in the bi-wire mode, while it will still only get the preferred high frequency signal in the non bi-wire mode but the speaker wires will have to carry the heavy bass signal currents as well; and the believer claims the heavy bass current will interact with the high frequency signals carried by the same wire. So they prefer the high/low freq signals separated and carried by two separate pair of wires.

That is pretty much the theory, but again, I don't believe it would make an audible difference either but let's not claim this nonsense (I know someone started it long ago)about "just a long jumper" thereby implying some of the believers (that include reputable audio equipment manufacturers) don't know what they are talking about.

By the way if you search this forum you will find that jneutron, a respected member, did spend some time showing the difference albeit small in terms of circuit theory. I can do that too if I take the time but it will only be understood by people who is familiar with advanced circuit and field theory so there is not much point.

On the practical side, I am sure you have the tool to do an experiment on your own. All you have to do is to hook one biwireable speaker up in bi-wire configuration and measure the current in each pair of wires and you will see the difference in magnitude of the current each carries. If you use a scope you will see the difference in terms of frequency spectrum as well. If the claim about "just a longer jumper" is true you will see equal currents in both pair of wires. You do not need an oscilloscope or spectrum analyser to this truth.

I think people will not be happy if we reactivate this debate so if you wish we can do it via PM.

Thanks,
peng
 
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H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
:D :D

There are Carbon Dioxide bubbles in Diet Pepsi, I know I have seen them. But I haven't been able to count them or to catch one so do they really exist? :D:D;) :D

But, if I put one of my two personal super detecting device Audioholic sound devices to the edge of the glass I can verify their presence. .. So they must exist correct..

Hearing is believing, seeing is sometimes believing because except for magnetic filings I have yet to see an electromagnetic field.

:D:D
Shake the bottle and immediately take it down to absolute zero. If you survive, you'll be able to count the bubbles.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
How is bi-wiring really different from moving the conductor where the High Pass, Low Pass and possibly Bandpass filters connect? The sum of the net current in all of the speaker wires will be the same as in a single wire pair, they still need to be somewhat close in proximity in order to connect to the same speaker and they can't reach their respective destinations without being fairly close to each other. Since proximity is a big determining factor in how much the magnetic field of one conductor will affect another, it would seem that a single wire pair won't have the same amount of interaction as two separate pairs because all of the frequencies involved are carried on the same conductors. Unless the amp is capable of large amounts of voltage and current, I really don't think it's as much of an issue as marketing departments make it out to be.

The point that low frequencies won't appear at the high pass crossover when the speakers are bi-wired will only be true of the crossover is moved to the amp's location, away from the speakers. This is generally considered to be a bad idea because of the possibility of issues arising from that distance. Removing the metal strap on the speaker terminals in order to bi-wire seems like it's only moving the physical location of the point where the HP and LP filters connect.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The point that low frequencies won't appear at the high pass crossover when the speakers are bi-wired will only be true of the crossover is moved to the amp's location, away from the speakers.
I will pm you an explanation as it can be lengthy.
 
J

JAMS

Junior Audioholic
I dont mind lengthy stuff if its english

Hi peng,i was reading the administrators post on x/over brain of your spkr, very good explanation but i took a break to say hi and yes a long winded or multi-page works for me!
I just last week had a prescrption lens put inside my right eye because a cateract made everything hazed over badly! My reading glasses work now fine !
Heck im only 54 go figure,but UVs or sunlight can cause it!
Somehow my ears are ok,I wore out the frets on a 1966 les paul custom some yrs ago using a sun concert lead 3-12" spkrs and earned a disturbing the peace citation,court went well,i was the 2nd person to no contest the charge,$50 total but the officer told me on that loud day,it was the loudest sonic disturbence he has ever encountered!
No way i was gonna let him get up there and say that,the judge might have a schitzoid embolisum or something??
The young officer was so factual sounding like spock you no,weird!
Anyway i set all spkrs @80hz and whoa the subs picked up the slack perfectly,the midrange is much improved and no bass is missing now,the highs are more alive and clearer amazing what subs can do with a musical receiver like the NAD T765 ! pearsall helped me get it right,now sub balance vol, and a little sliding subs around is comming next! The female vocals are so silky and articulate its amazing! Strings are more upfront too!
later! I was clueless my spkrs could sound like this,a really awesome surprize it is!
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
Bi-Wiring or not, that is the question.

For people that want to know the advantage on Bi-wiring, just call Bryston in Rexdale, Ontario, Canada; and ask to speak to Christopher W. Russel, VP/Engineering, Bryston Ltd.

Also, try to get in touch with Dr. Floyd Toole here in the USA.
Also, contact Paradigm engineers head department, which also distribute Anthem products.

These guys seem to know something that the vast majority of people don't.
And not only that, they are supported by well known pro people, like James H. Hayward (retired from Bell Canada Special Services Engineering and Operations Groups, also a Ryerson Electronics Technology graduate), and Andrew Marshall, audio writer for many years in Canada and also a professional recording engineer; and by other well known expert people.

Oh, by the way, if some people are interested about which speaker cables are best for your system, just let me know. :)

Cheers,

Bob
 
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J

JAMS

Junior Audioholic
Spkr wire might be a good idea

HI,if better affordable wire is to be had let me know,ive modest spkrs in the infinity beta line and im using only local radio shack 14&16 ga. for surrounds!
The bi-wiring thing seems to really be contentious topic!
Good thing theres a long wire between pros and con huh!
I posted a newer thread called (can you have to many drivers), well the adminastrator advised me to get rid of some spkrs,but i listed everything i have and its basically a 7.2 setup with a pair of bookshelf pair added to this ,pre-amped from l&r and sitting on the floor standing l&r just trying to briten up the sound a little,but i had the surr. x/over set up wrong!
Now it plenty alive w/highs, set to 80hz on all did it and the 2 subs really cover the lows well! Im using the nad t765 !
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
Hi JAMS,

Yep, Bi-wiring, Bi-amping, and Bridging, have all their supporters and detractors, that's for sure. ;)

Ok, I'm gonna make a long story very short, get some Kimber Kable for your speakers (8TC for the three front ones, and 4TC for all the others). :)
Only if you can get a good deal for them. Or at the very least, get the 4TC for your three front mains; that should be quite cheap for the few feet needed. Plus, you'll notice an improvement in sound; better lows, much tighter, and better mids, better delineation, and crisper highs, with more spaciousness overall. :)

Cheers,

Bob
 
J

JAMS

Junior Audioholic
kimber 8-4tc ok

HI,thanks i will look around my regular places,parts-express,jr eletron, one call,ect, some repuable e-bay companys also! My first choice wouldnt be like audio advisor or the normal audiophile venders!
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
HI,thanks i will look around my regular places,parts-express,jr eletron, one call,ect, some repuable e-bay companys also! My first choice wouldnt be like audio advisor or the normal audiophile venders!
Ya, no sweat man. But please, let me know your impressions after you replace your Shack ones for the Kimber ones. :)

Just start with only your three front ones, and even the 4TC would do fine with your Infinity Beta speakers, no need for the 8TC in your case.

Bob
 
A

Alexsk

Audiophyte
Wasatch cable

Hi!
Do you still have any Wasatch cable works? Interconnect or speaker or power?
Will buy expensively.
Respond please.

Regards
Alexander
alexsk1977
@
gmail.com
 
A

Alexsk

Audiophyte
[
Wasatch 103U Intcx
Wasatch LS-540 Cable
]

Hi!
Do you still have any Wasatch cable works? Interconnect or speaker or power?
Will buy expensively.
Respond please.

Regards
Alexander

alexsk1977
@
gmail.com
 
A

Alexsk

Audiophyte
Dave,
Do you still have any Wasatch Cable Works (LC-540, RCA, power)?
I'n looking for it so much.
Respond please.
Thanks
Alexander

alexsk1977
@
gmail.com
 
Starmax

Starmax

Full Audioholic
<font color='#008080'>I have Monster bi-wire cable, and I've noticed a tremendouse difference in the gas mileage on my Jeep Liberty.

</font>
You lie! I have Monster bi-wire cable, and the gas mileage on my Jeep Cherokee got worse.
 
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A

Alexsk

Audiophyte
Wasatch cable works

Hi!
Who have any Wasatch cable works (ICs, speaker, power)?
I want to buy.
Alexander
 
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