To Bi-Wire or Not

[Dragon Warrior]

<font color='#000000'>I am quite confuse on the benefits (if any) of bi-wiring. &nbsp;There are lots of conflicting information (and theory) on this subject.

Websites sponsored by cable manufacturer states that bi-wiring is the greatest thing since slice bread, and a good alternative to bi-amping. &nbsp;Good way of promoting sales!

Other independent websites state that there are no benefits if you are using good quality wire with a heavy guage of 12 or lower.

Before I invest $$$ into another set of wires, can you please share your experience with bi-wiring?</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Dragon;

I like to refer to bi-wiring as buy-wiring &nbsp;

Other than the reduced DC resistance of having two wires paralleled, there is little or no benefit to doing so. &nbsp;All of those cable soothsayers that claim xDB improvements, or reductions in back EMF is mostly fluff since the speaker is still connected to one common amp. &nbsp;If you really want to hear a notible benefit, try bi-amping. &nbsp;However this option is not always economical to people since it involves twice as many amps, more occupying space, and to achieve the true benefits of bi-amping, elimination of the loudspeakers passive crossovers in favor for active line level ones.

For more info on bi-amping, I recommend this excellent read:
Benefits of Bi-amping

MY best advice to you is choose some quality 10-12AWG wire rather than sinking 2X money into double the cables.</font>

 

[Audioholics]

<font color='#008080'>I have Monster bi-wire cable, and I've noticed a tremendouse difference in the gas mileage on my Jeep Liberty.

</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>Having tried bi-wiring I must say that my ears hardly could notice any significant difference in sound. My suggestion would be to use good quality wire and if you need improvement, then as Gene suggests, bi-amping makes a substantial difference.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Bi-wiring, don't know about that too much, &nbsp;not doing it myself. &nbsp;I use good old home depot &quot;oxygen free&quot; speaker wire (the green stuff). &nbsp;Works great, I'm putting it in my new theater room too.

Don't know about how &quot;oxygen free&quot; it is, can't say that I really care @ 38 cents CND a foot.

Bi-Amping, well that's another story. &nbsp;To do it right you need the right speakers, &nbsp;processing the signal with active crossovers and then giving each driver group in each speaker it's own dedicated amp.

Some &quot;Hi-Fi&quot; vendors recommend bi-amping their speakers even tho they are still loaded with passive compnents (speakers with a little &quot;gold&quot; bar bridging two binding posts). &nbsp;Which really defeats the whole purpose of bi-amping IMHO.

Does active bi-amped speakers sound better than passive ones, not really to my ears, but I do understand the science behind them and see that there may be an advantage there.

Rob</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Although I would defer to Gene and his expertise with regards to the technical reasons as to why bi-wiring is not worth it, my personal experience shows clear benefits.

While I agree that a lot of cable and wire talk is non-sense, and I can often not tell the difference with different interconnect - I can say that in every system, in every possible configuration that I have ever tried - there has been at least a negligible improvement in sound quality (at least to my ears). &nbsp;Also I rarely use very high end cables on the low-mids as it is not really worth it. &nbsp;So, biwiring does not have to break the bank - just use your better cables on the high ends.


VanAlstine Transcendence 7ec
Cary V-12i (Svetlana/Telefunken/EH)
Rotel 991
Jolida 302b
Klipsch RF-7
VooDoo Reference Intcx.
Wasatch 103U Intcx
Wasatch LS-540 Cable
Cat-5 Belden DIY Cable

Dave</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Dave;

Thanks for your feedback. &nbsp;I am not trying to recommend people to NOT biwire. &nbsp;However, I believe it would be more effective to spend the extra money on a quality set of speaker cables rather than a lesser set of cables in biwire configuration. &nbsp;Many bi-wire cables sold in a single jacket have much higher pair to pair capacitance that could impede system performance for a variety of reasons.

From my own personal listening tests, with my system and my ears, I preferred a good quality 10AWG speaker cable, and bypassing the jumpers on my speakers with 10AWG short wires, over (2) sets of standard 12AWG wire in bi-wire configuration. &nbsp;It was also an easier sell to my wife since it was more cosmetically pleasing &nbsp;

</font>

 

[A-7]

<font color='#000000'>Guys,
It’s not exactly like this.

The advantage of bi-wire connection is that you eliminate intermodulation on the speaker cable's resistance.
The speaker cable's resistance is essential. If you use the single cable, don't forget that the crossover is also powered through the cable (that of course doesn't have 0 ohm resistance). When current passes through the crossover, it makes the voltage drop down on the cable’s resistance.
Except of the useful signal that is carried through the cable, there also are generated voltages as a result of speaker interaction on crossover. This signal is not originally on the amplifier's output.
Also, the high amplifier's damping factor is important, when the amplifier’s output resistance is theoretically 0.
When signal moves for example the bass speaker coil, the operation of bass speaker (on transients) makes up the signals those affect the mid and high band.
If you use bi-wire cables, each side of the crossover is powered from the amplifier’s output by the independent wires, you‘ll separate both sides of the crossover. No matter that the bi-wire cable is connected at the amp side together because it makes the short outs for inducted signals coming from crossover.
Bi-wire connection prevents the interaction on the same cable.
The difference is audible on good gear.
Yes, I can hear the difference.

</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

Dragon Warrior : Websites sponsored by cable manufacturer states that bi-wiring is the greatest thing since slice bread, and a good alternative to bi-amping.  Good way of promoting sales!

Dave, I'll leave it to guys like Gene and Rod to answer your questions involving systems that use passive crossovers, but I can tell you that anyone who tells you that bi-wiring is any kind of substitute for bi-amping is an unreliable source of information.  Seriously Dave, I'd suggest red-flagging sites and sources that make such claims, as they are absolutely talking nonsense.  Active crossovers have so many advantages over passive crossovers that it isn't even fair to make comparisons.  NONE (absolutely zero) of the advantages of bi-amping come from the fact that you use separate wire runs for each driver.  True, that is a necessity when each driver is driven by it's own amp, but the reason we bi-amp has nothing to do with the two wires.  It has to do with bi-amping's true advantages, which include sharper crossover slopes (bi-wire doesn't offer that advantage), higher crest-factor (bi-wire doesn't offer that advantage), and a constant impedance load for the crossover (bi-wire doesn't offer that advantage either).  Anyone who tells you that bi-wiring is a substitute for bi-amping, or that it's even close, is selling you a bill of goods.  It might be because they've bought the bill of goods themselves, but rest assured that what they are telling you is simply not true.

Rod Elliott has done some interesting work with bi-wiring and may comment.  I've done a little work with it too, but just enough to convince myself not to take it seriously.  Rod addresses the issues in one of the articles on his Web site.

RADAR O'Riley</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>A-7;

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The advantage of bi-wire connection is that you eliminate intermodulation on the speaker cable's resistance. </td></tr></table>

Please explain the source of the &quot;intermodulation on the speaker cable's resistance.&quot; &nbsp;This statement makes no sense to me.

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The speaker cable's resistance is essential.</td></tr></table>

This statement is also confusing. &nbsp;Why would the resistance be essential? &nbsp;If that were the case then simply shorting the speaker terminal to the amp terminal would result in to signal propagation. &nbsp;The ideal cable would have zero impedance, or no resistance, inductance, and capacitance.

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you use the single cable, don't forget that the crossover is also powered through the cable (that of course doesn't have 0 ohm resistance).</td></tr></table>

Again this makes no sense to me for the same reasoning of “cable resistance is essential” that you stated before.

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When current passes through the crossover, it makes the voltage drop down on the cable’s resistance.</td></tr></table>

What? &nbsp;I don’t understand what you are trying to say??

Cable resistance of a well designed cable is negligible compared to the DC resistance of a drivers voice coil. &nbsp;A simple voltage divider will prove that. &nbsp;Take a 10ft 12AWG cable with Rdc(round trip) = 34mohms and a woofers DC resistance of 4 ohms. &nbsp;The total Vdrop across the cable with a 1V source would be : &nbsp;Vcable = [34*10^-3 / (34*10^-3 + 4)] * 1V = 8.4mV which corresponds to less than 73 mdB (neglecting cable inductance) of loss due to cable resistance. &nbsp;This is hardly relevant. &nbsp;
For more info on cable losses, I suggest you review the latest Cable Face Off article I wrote at:

http://audioholics.com/techtip....off.htm

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Except of the useful signal that is carried through the cable, there also are generated voltages as a result of speaker interaction on crossover. This signal is not originally on the amplifier's output.</td></tr></table>

I assume you are referring to back EMF of the drivers. &nbsp;If you are, this is also mostly inconsequential. &nbsp;

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also, the high amplifier's damping factor is important, when the amplifier’s output resistance is theoretically 0. </td></tr></table>

Hmm, what does that say about tube amps with output impedances approaching an ohm in some cases?

The importance of a high damping factor is mostly a myth. For more info on this topic , I defer you to an article written by industry expert lord helmet Pierce.

http://audioholics.com/techtip....or.html
&nbsp;



<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When signal moves for example the bass speaker coil, the operation of bass speaker (on transients) makes up the signals those affect the mid and high band.

If you use bi-wire cables, each side of the crossover is powered from the amplifier’s output by the independent wires, you‘ll separate both sides of the crossover.</td></tr></table>

The problem with this theory is that the wires don't power anything. &nbsp;That's what the amp does

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No matter that the bi-wire cable is connected at the amp side together because it makes the short outs for inducted signals coming from crossover.</td></tr></table>

Sorry I don’t follow you here, please elaborate. &nbsp;

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bi-wire connection prevents the interaction on the same cable.</td></tr></table>

What interaction? &nbsp;&quot;The voltage crushing the resistance by falling on it, or the intermodulation distortion produced by the wire's finite resistance?&quot; &nbsp;Preliminary tests that a few of us have run show that the magnitude of the back-EMF (which goes through the tweeter-xover before reaching the tweeter, getting attenuated a second time, is nearly nothing to virtually nothing). &nbsp;When time permits, I may write an article on this to explain further.

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The difference is audible on good gear.</td></tr></table>

Please define &quot;good gear&quot;? &nbsp;Is good gear such that it is so poorly designed as to make bi-wiring audible? &nbsp;Seriously, I have reviewed, measured and listening to much alleged “good gear” and found it to be more lacking than decent midfi.

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, I can hear the difference.</td></tr></table>

I don’t doubt that you do. &nbsp;However, I recommend a major crossover upgrade and less reactive wire.
After doing this, rerun the comparisons and report your findings.</font>

 

[Renko]

Thanks for the post Gene. I was attempting to use the net to review the benefits of upgrading to speakers which use high frequency and low frequency hook-ups after recently acquiring a receiver that has the ability (at least according to the literature that came with the receiver) to use dual amps to deliver a high and low frequency. But I keep coming across information on the net in which people state that bi-wiring can achieve the same effects as bi-amping. And I observed the same thing at an audio shop in town in which (surprise surprise) the sales people were telling me and the other customers of the supposed benefits of bi-wiring. After that, it was a welcome surprise to find some rational responses to the bi-wire question in this topic.

In response to those who think bi-wiring has any benefits, I am guessing that there must be new laws of physics of which the general world is not aware. According to the laws of physics, one or 100 speaker wires going to the same speaker from the same amplifier will deliver the same signal and the same level of signal power. Anyone can discover this for himself or herself if he/she does a simple search in Google. Or better yet, ask an engineer. Do not ask self-proclaimed experts on the net who sit at a computer and make claims based upon what they have heard or think they know.

Bi-wiring is a myth. Period.

 

[russ_l]

Biwiring Can Work

I’m going to store this as a file so I don’t have to keep retyping it. Biwiring can, but not always does, make a noticeable difference in sound quality. Biwiring has nothing to do with DC resistance of cables as some state here, but has to do with intermodulation effects. In a single wire setup, the large magnetic field produced by the bass signal modulates the weaker magnetic field produced by the midbass / treble signal thus causing distortion.

This effect can be mitigated by sending the bass signal down one wire, and the mid-bass / treble signal down a second wire, the TWO WIRES SEPERATED FROM EACH OTHER BY SEVERAL INCHES OR MORE. Just to clarify this point, at the frequency extremes the bass wire sees the inductive part of the crossover and only passes DC, no AC. At the other extreme, the midbass / treble wire sees the capacitive part of the crossover and only passes AC, no DC. Of course in reality, both wires see some low and high frequencies depending on the crossover slopes (first order, second order, etc.).

There are two prominent reasons why some people say biwiring does not work. One reason is the BUYWIRE reason; biwire cables where there is no separation between the wires (see above) are of no value other than to make sales for the wire bandits (as Sam Tellig calls them).

The second reason has to do with the quality of the system itself. If the quality of the system is not up to the level of improvement added by biwiring, you’re not going to hear it. E.g., if you add a Wadia, Audio Research Reference, full-up dCS stack, etc. CD player to a low or mid-fi system you’re not going to hear an improvement over the $99 Sony open box player (end of that argument).

From another prospective, with the exception of Mr. Bose (not high-end), Richard Vandersteen has probably sold more speakers total than any other high-end speaker manufacturer. His speakers are specifically set up for biwiring and insisted upon by RV. Not a marketing tool, but a performance enhancement.

From my experience, my most recent two-channel setup was a TRIWIRED Hyperion system (938 speakers, Hyperion preamp and Hyperion monoblocks). Improvements were observed going from single wire, to biwire to triwire.

As usual, IMHO all of the above.

 

[zhimbo]

Improvements were observed ...

Was this observation "blind" - i.e., did the observers know which setup they were listening to at any time?

 

[russ_l]

Blind Testing

No; no blind testing. Just my observations (Since 1960 I'm one of those, as my wife likes to call us) and that of many many NYC area club members. Many golded ears; many with systems far more expensive (and better) than mine. Many hi-end manufacturers in the clubs.

Please see my Wadia, AR, dCS, et-al argument above if you're a non-believer.

 

[TLS Guy]

<font color='#000000'>I am quite confuse on the benefits (if any) of bi-wiring. &nbsp;There are lots of conflicting information (and theory) on this subject.

Websites sponsored by cable manufacturer states that bi-wiring is the greatest thing since slice bread, and a good alternative to bi-amping. &nbsp;Good way of promoting sales!

Other independent websites state that there are no benefits if you are using good quality wire with a heavy guage of 12 or lower.

Before I invest $$$ into another set of wires, can you please share your experience with bi-wiring?</font>

Don't be confused. There are no benefits.

 

[zhimbo]

No; no blind testing. Just my observations

Then there's nothing to convince me that there's a difference.

It's quite simple to set up a simple blind test. Try it sometime. Have someone you trust to do the wiring change a bunch of times according to a pre-made randomized list (not known to you, of course), then obscure the wires from view. They say nothing to you. You enter, record your impressions each time and guess which wiring setup you're listening to. The more times you do it, the better.

 

[russ_l]

An Expert Opinion

Don't be confused. There are no benefits.

TLS Guy- you mean in your humble opinion, or please refute my Wadia, Audio Research Ref, dCS, etc. argument.

 

[zhimbo]

TLS Guy- you mean in your humble opinion, or please refute my Wadia, Audio Research Ref, dCS, etc. argument.

You didn't provide an argument - you provided a claim. You need to support the claim. Blind testing will do that.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I’m going to store this as a file so I don’t have to keep retyping it. Biwiring can, but not always does, make a noticeable difference in sound quality. Biwiring has nothing to do with DC resistance of cables as some state here, but has to do with intermodulation effects. In a single wire setup, the large magnetic field produced by the bass signal modulates the weaker magnetic field produced by the midbass / treble signal thus causing distortion.

Then you measured this effect? How much did you find? Please, don't be shy, put your measurements up here
How about this distortion in the low bad between frequencies? After all, the current is frequency dependent and not all the bass frequencies are at equal level, so, by your account, all the weaker bass signals would be equally distorted? Maybe we need a cable for each frequency?

Just to clarify this point, at the frequency extremes the bass wire sees the inductive part of the crossover and only passes DC, no AC.

What??? What DC sigan is passed and rejected? Where is that DC coming from?

At the other extreme, the midbass / treble wire sees the capacitive part of the crossover and only passes AC, no DC.

Are you telling us that the low bass is DC and the mid and hi is AC??? I am confused now.

The second reason has to do with the quality of the system itself. If the quality of the system is not up to the level of improvement added by biwiring, you’re not going to hear it.

But of course not. How about one's hearing ability? How does that enter the picture?

E.g., if you add a Wadia, Audio Research Reference, full-up dCS stack, etc. CD player to a low or mid-fi system you’re not going to hear an improvement over the $99 Sony open box player (end of that argument).

WOW, I bet you have lots of data to base this on, right?

As usual, IMHO all of the above.

But of course it is your opinion as you didn't link any citations for any of this, right

 

[mtrycrafts]

No; no blind testing. .

Of course not. Why would the truth matter, right, when one is happy with illusions.