Cap and Trade

[tbewick]

This is the problem when you want to initiate programs you can't pay for. Apparently worse, this is just the tip of the iceberg. It's not the top 2% wage earners that get taxed. It's everyone. If this bill passes the U.S. Senate, you can all kiss a LOT of money goodbye...jobs too, and not just for and in the energy sector. But then perhaps this is how our Supreme Leader proposes to pay for all the cool things he wants the government to do.

Here is a redacted letter sent to a friend of mine from our House Rep, Greg Walden, in Oregon. Remember, these are Oregon numbers where we have mighty green hydroelectric power. Poor midwesterners...you're sunk. (Trust your government. Buy Government Motors cars. )

-----------------------------------------------

"As you may already know, the so-called cap and trade bill passed the House of Representatives narrowly this afternoon. The legislation now goes to the U.S. Senate. But I wanted to give you a quick update on the day's proceedings.

I opposed this bill, which levies the largest-ever energy tax on the American people. If it becomes law, PacifiCorp would hike its power rates in Oregon by at least 17.9 percent. The Heritage Foundation estimates that the National Energy Tax would cost the economy $161 billion in 2020, which is $1,870 for a family of four. As the bill's restrictions kick in, that could climb as high as $6,800 by 2035.

The authors of the bill recognized the toll higher energy prices will take on families, so they developed a new "energy stamps" welfare program. The size of this new entitlement is 16-times bigger than America's already-existent welfare system (the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families program). But if you're a family of four making more than $33,000 a year, you're out of luck. The program doesn't apply to you.

You might assume that such an incredibly consequential bill would have been vetted carefully before passage. Incredibly, you'd be wrong. At 2:49 a.m. today, the bill's author, Representative Henry Waxman (D-Hollywood), introduced a new 309-page rewrite of the 1,201-page bill. I have trouble believing that any member of Congress read through this new rewrite before the vote. And out of 224 amendments that Republicans hoped to have considered, Speaker Nancy Pelosi only allowed one to receive a vote on the House floor.

I remain deeply concerned over what this bill would do to the American economy. I will continue to monitor the legislation closely as it heads to the U.S. Senate and keep you posted as the process moves forward."

Greg Walden

I think the quote below sums up the problem:

We are so far removed from the scale of the problem and we are so reluctant, all of us, to address this because it affects us personally, it affects our economy, the way we live our lives, our attitude towards other people, that at every level we try to find anything we can to avoid that, whether scientifically or politically. I do think we are far removed from this, and this is almost an issue of culture and philosophy as much as it is now of science. In some respects the mitigation agenda is well understood from a science perspective. The science has got to tell us a lot more about the adaptation agenda as yet but I think for mitigation we know what we need to do. The problem is not lack of engineering, the problem is not lack of science; it is lack of will. I think it is far more of a cultural, political, philosophical issue now than it is one of science and engineering.

Uncorrected oral evidence of Prof. Kevin Anderson on 'Carbon Budgets' to the House of Commons Environmental Audit Select Committee.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmenvaud/uc616-ii/uc61602.htm

 

[highfigh]

One good thing will come from this...

MORE NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS.

I'd agree, except I fully expect the New Government to run them, which means everything will glow for the next ten thousand years and it will cost so much this New Government will have to subsidize everyone's energy bills. This will come as quite a shock to those who wanted to use solar, wind and water power, but were told that only nuclear power will be approved.

 

[highfigh]

Please note that the government is trying to prepare for this. Check out HR45...the new House bill that flies in the face of the 2nd Amendment and recent Surpreme Court decision. California has already banned lead ammo. OTOH, you might also have seen that despite huge upramping in manufacturing, there are few guns now available anywhere in the U.S. and almost NO AMMO of any kind. They're sold out everywhere. There is a reason for that. I'll let you all supply the answer for yourselves.

If lead slugs are outlawed, it really doesn't matter. As long as the projectile goes really fast, it's lethal.

Guns are still available but ammo is getting harder to find. With all of the small machine shops and the ability for these shops to make whatever they need to, it's just a matter of time until little underground ammo makers are in full swing.

I read HR45 and it pisses me off to no end. I have often said that one of my biggest problems with Obama is the fact that he taught Constitutional Law for over 10 years and because of this, he has though of ways around every Amendment, Article and provision. Call me paranoid- I don't care.

The Sheeple are out grazing while the tenders of the flock are sharpening their knives.

 

[Adam]

The Sheeple are out grazing while the tenders of the flock are sharpening their knives.

Luckily, not all of the Sheeple are grazing. The rest of us are lucky to have those who pay attention and prepare.

 

[Tomorrow]

I think the quote below sums up the problem:

We are so far removed from the scale of the problem and we are so reluctant, all of us, to address this because it affects us personally, it affects our economy, the way we live our lives, our attitude towards other people, that at every level we try to find anything we can to avoid that, whether scientifically or politically. I do think we are far removed from this, and this is almost an issue of culture and philosophy as much as it is now of science. In some respects the mitigation agenda is well understood from a science perspective. The science has got to tell us a lot more about the adaptation agenda as yet but I think for mitigation we know what we need to do. The problem is not lack of engineering, the problem is not lack of science; it is lack of will. I think it is far more of a cultural, political, philosophical issue now than it is one of science and engineering.

Uncorrected oral evidence of Prof. Kevin Anderson on 'Carbon Budgets' to the House of Commons Environmental Audit Select Committee.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmenvaud/uc616-ii/uc61602.htm

The above from K. Anderson is well stated but flawed in a way. One can be blind to that which is dear to him. I disagree that it is a matter of will. It's a matter of the implementation of "corrective" action.

I trust much to science, it is but a tool to exercise...not a truth. The climate prognostications are based upon historic data, computer modeling, and best guesses and approximations. No future 'proof' or truth exists. But that is all perhaps irrelevant. Let's just assume that the global warmists are correct. What then is relevant is the government involvement with science. It's frequently frought with unforeseen consequences. No science and certainly no unilateral political, non-examinated legislation can foresee the constellation of possible results of any global action. (Approval of DDT to improve crop performance is a small but perfect example.) It's the implementation of science that worries me, not the science...but apparently not Anderson.

Here's a simpler fix for you. Let's all just move to the temperate latitudes and make cattle extinct. (Free beef for everyone under the poverty level! AND...no one has to live in North Dakota. ) That should have a greater impact on our earthly carbon feetprints than anything as convoluted as this unaffordable legislation will end up with.

 

[Buckeye_Nut]

I wonder how high the unemployment rate will get before the the average Obama voter will blame him for destroying the economy. We're already at 9.5% and there are no signs yet..... will it be at 12%, 14%, 16%??

Cap/Trade....sheesh. It's only going to get worse folks.............

We'll be standing in food lines and he'll still receive praise for "GOOD INTENT" in spite of wiping out our prosperity in the process.

 

[highfigh]

Luckily, not all of the Sheeple are grazing. The rest of us are lucky to have those who pay attention and prepare.

And his date:

 

[highfigh]

I had a thought yesterday, while I read an article about how some of the local smaller cities had scaled down on their Independence Day celebrations. Cities have a lot less money for this kind of thing and if it gets worse for any length of time, it may become a situation where people may remember the big celebrations but since it will have been a long time before, the significance will have diminished for many who are younger. This means the current mob will be able to replace important events from the country's history with their own little circus-type crap. They'll make themselves out to be the ones who "saved" the country from what had been happening before. They're so eager to provide people with everything they need, when they couldn't see a reason to stay in school and make it possible to do for themselves that they want to just spread all of what so many worked so hard for that they don't care where we're headed, as long as they can make themselves look like they're wonderful and generous.

If these gypsies stay for too long, we'll definitely be reduced to Third World status.

We're so screwed....

 

[highfigh]

Here's a simpler fix for you. Let's all just move to the temperate latitudes and make cattle extinct. (Free beef for everyone under the poverty level! AND...no one has to live in North Dakota. ) That should have a greater impact on our earthly carbon feetprints than anything as convoluted as this unaffordable legislation will end up with.

I wouldn't have a problem if we replaced cattle with bison. It's leaner, less cholesterol and I like Mozzarella cheese, anyway.

How about if we just feed cattle grass instead of corn?

 

[Tomorrow]

We got through a round of Sunday morning news shows and barely a mention of the Cap and Trade legislation. It's truly amazing that this kind of huge expenditure and country-changing bill is being ignored.

Also...there was little mention of the Universal Medical Care proposals. Just as with the (so far failed) bailout appropriations, this congress and administration believe that if the country is deeply in debt, the way out of it is to get deeper in debt. Makes sense to me. In this particular case, since medical care costs need containment, let's throw a trillion dollars at the problem. That'll contain costs. Right? RIGHT?! Spend more to save money?

Welcome to the downhill slide of this great country. As our friend rnatali says, this entitlement era and economic collapse is just part of the natural life and death cycle of a democracy.

I'm getting old and tired and curmudgeonly. Where is TLSguy and Annunaki when ya need an uplift of optimism?!

 

[Matt34]

We got through a round of Sunday morning news shows and barely a mention of the Cap and Trade legislation. It's truly amazing that this kind of huge expenditure and country-changing bill is being ignored.

Also...there was little mention of the Universal Medical Care proposals. Just as with the (so far failed) bailout appropriations, this congress and administration believe that if the country is deeply in debt, the way out of it is to get deeper in debt. Makes sense to me. In this particular case, since medical care costs need containment, let's throw a trillion dollars at the problem. That'll contain costs. Right? RIGHT?! Spend more to save money?

Welcome to the downhill slide of this great country. As our friend rnatali says, this entitlement era and economic collapse is just part of the natural life and death cycle of a democracy.

I'm getting old and tired and curmudgeonly. Where is TLSguy and Annunaki when ya need an uplift of optimism?!

I spent 45min in my car yesterday and it was all Michael Jackson on the news stations.

 

[Adam]

I spent 45min in my car yesterday and it was all Michael Jackson on the news stations.

Ever wonder if this recent wave of celebrity deaths, at least some of which are under suspicious circumstances, is to keep us preoccupied so we don't pay too much attention to what the government is doing?

Conspiracy theorist? Me? Nah, I'm not paranoid. However, to all those g-men reading this, please ask your surveillance team to stop arguing with Alex. It's keeping me awake.

 

[highfigh]

We got through a round of Sunday morning news shows and barely a mention of the Cap and Trade legislation. It's truly amazing that this kind of huge expenditure and country-changing bill is being ignored.

Also...there was little mention of the Universal Medical Care proposals. Just as with the (so far failed) bailout appropriations, this congress and administration believe that if the country is deeply in debt, the way out of it is to get deeper in debt. Makes sense to me. In this particular case, since medical care costs need containment, let's throw a trillion dollars at the problem. That'll contain costs. Right? RIGHT?! Spend more to save money?

Welcome to the downhill slide of this great country. As our friend rnatali says, this entitlement era and economic collapse is just part of the natural life and death cycle of a democracy.

I'm getting old and tired and curmudgeonly. Where is TLSguy and Annunaki when ya need an uplift of optimism?!

Ignored? Nah, they're just flashing pictures at the public faster than they can react to them. As long as they can stay a few flash cards ahead, they won't be found out until after they're out of office and with the changes to the laws I expect them to enact, we won't be able to do anything about it.

Also, our government is supposed to be a Federal Republic and that's different from a pure Democracy, which I sincerely hope we never have.

 

[Tomorrow]

Also, our government is supposed to be a Federal Republic and that's different from a pure Democracy, which I sincerely hope we never have.

Technically speaking, our 'republic' is a 'representative democracy'.

But you're right, highfigh...a little flash-carding is all we got this week. I think apathy has engulfed the nation.

 

[Matt34]

Really worth seven minutes of your time.

 

[Davemcc]

Is it too late to say "I told you so"?

 

[pzaur]

Nemo - How many addendums/riders are attached to this bill that have nothing to do with it?

-pat

 

[annunaki]

My parents were able to attend a "tea party" in northern Wisconsin on the 4th of July. I really wanted to attend, but was unable to make it. I had previous plans but just could not make it.

If there is anything we need to start doing, it is educating our fellow man. The first step is to get one to realize there is no difference between democrat and republican, but a difference between politicians and citizens and the former's thirst for more power and control over the latter.

It is an uphill battle for those who see what is really afoot right now. There are so many "divisions" within our country that we must overcome to truly take a stand. Those divisions, I believe are in place to keep the general populace under-educated, and too "defeated" to want to change the state of affairs. The most difficult "divisions" in place are race (government seems to force this to be an issue, you have to put race on everything from a driver's license to a job application, odd from a country where "all men & women are created equal") and the fake political divisions of republican & democrat.

If that was not bad enough, we essentially have a government run media running endless drivel. Propping up what the political elite are doing and placing the positive spin on the negative, or in this case, simply ignoring it all together.

If the people unite and say "NO" to the political elite class that has formed in this country, we can put an end to these things. We need to start acting faster than what we have though. The local "Tea Party" will no longer be enough. We need to educate our friends and family. Help them to realize what is at stake. For those of you who seem to be strong leaders, run for a local office and do it ethically. Expose those who are really after more power or for personal gain. If you don't win, at lest you will hopefully educated a few more of your fellow men to see the light.

We can make a change by acting & educating. Make it a point to try and help one person each week see what is really going on.

Here is a website started by a local talk radio show host. It was started in hopes of educating those who may be blinded currently.

http://partyofknow.org/

 

[highfigh]

Technically speaking, our 'republic' is a 'representative democracy'.

But you're right, highfigh...a little flash-carding is all we got this week. I think apathy has engulfed the nation.

Re: definitions of our Guv'mint, here's another one:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Federal Republic

I'm not sure it's just apathy. People have been avoiding any concern with their own problems for decades, as demonstrated by soap operas and "reality TV". All of the shows like Jerry Springer, Oprah and wherever the dregs of society are made to look as ridiculous as possible so people can just not think about how crappy their own lives are. The problem is, it works. I'm pretty sure the answer to them being asked "Are you ignorant, or apathetic?" would be "I don't know and I don't care".

It's easier to not get involved or think about A) If our government is working properly, B)Why it's not working properly, C) When it went off the tracks, D)How we can get it back on track and E) What will happen if it stays on its present course than to find out for themselves and do something about it. People think they'll get in trouble if they do, but they don't think about how important this is. If they knew what happened to the signors of the Declaration, they might realize that their concerns are awfully petty, especially when they consider how comparatively meaningless their lives are now.

 

[highfigh]

1) If there is anything we need to start doing, it is educating our fellow man. The first step is to get one to realize there is no difference between democrat and republican, but a difference between politicians and citizens and the former's thirst for more power and control over the latter.

2) It is an uphill battle for those who see what is really afoot right now. There are so many "divisions" within our country that we must overcome to truly take a stand. Those divisions, I believe are in place to keep the general populace under-educated, and too "defeated" to want to change the state of affairs. The most difficult "divisions" in place are race (government seems to force this to be an issue, you have to put race on everything from a driver's license to a job application, odd from a country where "all men & women are created equal") and the fake political divisions of republican & democrat.

3)If that was not bad enough, we essentially have a government run media running endless drivel. Propping up what the political elite are doing and placing the positive spin on the negative, or in this case, simply ignoring it all together.

4) If the people unite and say "NO" to the political elite class that has formed in this country, we can put an end to these things. We need to start acting faster than what we have though. The local "Tea Party" will no longer be enough. We need to educate our friends and family. Help them to realize what is at stake. For those of you who seem to be strong leaders, run for a local office and do it ethically. Expose those who are really after more power or for personal gain. If you don't win, at lest you will hopefully educated a few more of your fellow men to see the light.

We can make a change by acting & educating. Make it a point to try and help one person each week see what is really going on.

Here is a website started by a local talk radio show host. It was started in hopes of educating those who may be blinded currently.

http://partyofknow.org/

1) Our schools have been serving up a skewed version of the country's history for so long, people from the last 4 generations no longer have real knowledge of the facts. The amount of information available would make learning the real story a daunting task, at the very least, and with peoples' penchant for going the easy way it's unlikely that most people will make the effort.

As far as no difference between Democrats and Republicans, if you mean they're both people and deserve the same rights, I agree but the fundamental differences in philosophy are almost diametrically opposed. It's Large government vs Small government, self fulfillment vs entitlement and "Let's help people" vs "Let's get people to help these people".

2) These all seem to be due to lawyers and liberals who want everyone to be the same. Concerning rights and opportunity, I agree but when it comes to distributing wealth and giving away the fruits of others' labors, I strongly disagree. Someone who sits on their *** and just hangs out when they should be staying in school is entitled to nothing from anyone else, IMO. They need to think about what will happen if they don't do the work but that has been changed to "Oh, it's OK, the government will give it to you". My opinion on this isn't based on race but because of sheer numbers, it will look that way.

3) State run media is what Pravda was. Our media have never been completely unbiased but it's as bad as ever, now.

4) Part of the problem is that the best people for the jobs don't want them. The ones who do are more interested in the power, glory, influence and riches from plundering the vast majority, by being able to determining their pay & benefits and securing their own insulation from what we all have to deal with on a daily basis.