Cap and Trade

[Rickster71]

Democrats have promised that this cap-and-trade legislation won't pinch wallets, though behind the scenes they've acknowledged the energy price storm that is coming.

During the brief few days in which the bill was debated in the House Energy Committee, Republicans offered three amendments: one to suspend the program if gas hit $5 a gallon; one to suspend the program if electricity prices rose 10% over 2009; and one to suspend the program if unemployment rates hit 15%. Democrats defeated all of them.

The reality is that cost estimates for climate legislation are as unreliable as the models predicting climate change. What comes out of the computer is a function of what politicians type in.

Americans should know that those Members who vote for this climate bill are voting for what is likely to be the biggest tax in American history. Even Democrats can't repeal that reality.

 

[rnatalli]

We'll be standing in food lines and he'll still receive praise for "GOOD INTENT" in spite of wiping out our prosperity in the process.

Prosperity has been in the process of being wiped out long before Obama took office. It has been bubble after bubble after bubble. There's only so much 300 million people can do on a single planet with limited resources and we've seen the maximum already.

 

[lsiberian]

No part of this proposed bill rates debate. It inserts government into our daily lives like nothing in history and costs us more huge job losses and actual dollars. How about just one small example...Want to sell your house in this slumping market? You'll have to contact that huge, new, expensive government bureaucracy that will send out an inspector with his huge, new, expensive infrared camera to look at and inspect your house's energy leakage and green design. "Dear Mr. Nemo. We realize that you have given of yourself over and above the dumb meaningless crap you've been buying before now. But please be apprised that you must now replace all your windows with triplepane glass (eliminating 4 of them, as you have too large a percentage of windows to more green-friendly walls), install R400 insulation throughout, put in 'water Nazis' on all water fixtures, install two charging stations for current or future electric car acquisition, re-roof your house, as significant heat is being released through the old, inadequate, 30 year hurricane proof shingles. After you have submitted proof of these repairs and the $400 application fee along with the $500 inspection fee it will take approximately 6 months to approve or disapprove you qualification to sell your house under the Cap & Trade Regulations. If you have any further questions, please contact our automated help line at 1-800-IRS4YOU." Debating this issue only gives it a reality and credence that it does not deserve.

By the way, have you also taken the time to read the 96 page EPA report on global warming just released (and suppressed by the EPA/White House and mainstream media)? This is the EPA we're talking here....says that global weather conditions indicate a cooling of the globe until at least 2030. Hmmm.

And speaking of news...it's truly alarming that the mainstream media spends huge allotments of time on dead celebrities and little if anything on the largest energy spending bill in the history of the world. Oh yeah...that two grand you're so willing to give up....the total unsupportable debt in the U.S. is now somewhere between $65 and $99 Trillion depending upon who you believe. You're two thousand bucks aren't going very far in the grand scheme of things. Yes, indeed you had better worry about future generations.

Lenin and Marx knew something. They knew that if you debase a country's economy enough (spending and printing money/raising debt), then you destabililze the government. You destabilize the government...you get what you deserve...and it's NOT democracy. How are your history studies? You seem to be an avid reader. You read much of that too?

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.A2.lrg.gif

So Nasa indicates a warming of the globe.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/index.html

Noaa

show evidence too.

So you have the Atmospheric experts and peer reviewed papers verses what is likely your hearsay.

Global warming is real and is occuring. I have empirical data that shows it happening at a rate greater than anything that has occured in 2000 years.

Does that not alarm you? I find it concerning that people are turning this into some kind of political debate. It seem republicans don't believe in global warming. They make excuses or try to dismiss it. Yet the data contradicts them.

Now does it make logical since that when you burn something that it might contribute to making the earth warmer. Imagine if you burn a lot of stuff.

Acid rain was somethign that happened from coal burning global warming is something that's happening from what we are doing now.

Of course the sun might help us out by counteracting global warming for a few years, but moving to renewable energy sources and cutting down on our consumption is a must. Many of us abuse our AC units in the summer and heaters in the winter. Those that do should be taxed for it. Because they are bringing us a step closer to disaster. I see people that fatten themselves up with food and then jack down the ac to 72 degrees. that's a waste of energy. If they set it at 78 the savings is dramatic. Maybe we should ration electricity. We could turn off their lights when they've used up their rations.

 

[Tomorrow]

Prosperity has been in the process of being wiped out long before Obama took office. It has been bubble after bubble after bubble. There's only so much 300 million people can do on a single planet with limited resources and we've seen the maximum already.

While I agree with your pessimism regarding the ultimate outcome...I see no reason to accelerate the process with proposals such as this one!

 

[Rickster71]

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.A2.lrg.gif

So Nasa indicates a warming of the globe.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/index.html

Noaa

show evidence too.

So you have the Atmospheric experts and peer reviewed papers verses what is likely your hearsay.

Global warming is real and is occuring. I have empirical data that shows it happening at a rate greater than anything that has occured in 2000 years.

Does that not alarm you? I find it concerning that people are turning this into some kind of political debate. It seem republicans don't believe in global warming. They make excuses or try to dismiss it. Yet the data contradicts them.

Now does it make logical since that when you burn something that it might contribute to making the earth warmer. Imagine if you burn a lot of stuff.

Acid rain was somethign that happened from coal burning global warming is something that's happening from what we are doing now.

Of course the sun might help us out by counteracting global warming for a few years, but moving to renewable energy sources and cutting down on our consumption is a must. Many of us abuse our AC units in the summer and heaters in the winter. Those that do should be taxed for it. Because they are bringing us a step closer to disaster. I see people that fatten themselves up with food and then jack down the ac to 72 degrees. that's a waste of energy. If they set it at 78 the savings is dramatic. Maybe we should ration electricity. We could turn off their lights when they've used up their rations.

During the last 2 billion years the Earth's climate has alternated between frigid, and steaming hot.

That normal change isn't what's up for debate. What is debatable is the political spin and profiteering that goes along with it.

How soon we forget the exact same type of spin & profiteering and the rush to go to war against terrorism.

The debate wasn't "if" terrorism existed, but it's cause and how and where to fight it.

 

[Tomorrow]

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.A2.lrg.gif

So Nasa indicates a warming of the globe.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/index.html

Noaa

show evidence too.

So you have the Atmospheric experts and peer reviewed papers verses what is likely your hearsay.

Global warming is real and is occuring. I have empirical data that shows it happening at a rate greater than anything that has occured in 2000 years.

Does that not alarm you? I find it concerning that people are turning this into some kind of political debate. It seem republicans don't believe in global warming. They make excuses or try to dismiss it. Yet the data contradicts them.

Now does it make logical since that when you burn something that it might contribute to making the earth warmer. Imagine if you burn a lot of stuff.

Acid rain was somethign that happened from coal burning global warming is something that's happening from what we are doing now.

Of course the sun might help us out by counteracting global warming for a few years, but moving to renewable energy sources and cutting down on our consumption is a must. Many of us abuse our AC units in the summer and heaters in the winter. Those that do should be taxed for it. Because they are bringing us a step closer to disaster. I see people that fatten themselves up with food and then jack down the ac to 72 degrees. that's a waste of energy. If they set it at 78 the savings is dramatic. Maybe we should ration electricity. We could turn off their lights when they've used up their rations.

If you'll notice, I'm not arguing the case of global warming or cooling. In one post I even called it irrelevant. What is relevant to this thread is the discussion of what one does with the science. Laying waste to the economy and strategic interests of the United States is NOT high on my agenda for a solution. The implementation of the fix is where the debate should be. None of the goons in Congress even read the damn bill before voting on it.

Why don't you debate the pro's and cons of my solution (moving everyone to temperate lattitudes and killing cattle)? It's proposed in jest, but it's a perfect solution. It's also equally as unthinkable...only a LOT cheaper than the Cap and Trade bill.

 

[lsiberian]

During the last 2 billion years the Earth's climate has alternated between frigid, and steaming hot.

That normal change isn't what's up for debate. What is debatable is the political spin and profiteering that goes along with it.

How soon we forget the exact same type of spin & profiteering and the rush to go to war against terrorism.

The debate wasn't "if" terrorism existed, but it's cause and how and where to fight it.

It is certainly true that politics are a part of life, but there is no current system without propaganda that I'm aware of. It's necessary to run any campaign. Remember elections are largely popularity contests. Not sure if your high school had class presidents, but ours did. And the person elected was always the most popular with the most ties. Not the most qualified.

This is politics and humanity. You may not like it, but you are part of this species so you have 2 choices. Get over it and get involved or continuing your doom and gloom. Personally I see no need to cry disaster with every election or bill passed in our nation. America has been through far worse political crisis and far more divisive times then these. We even had a war once over our differences. Yet we still have the highest GDP of any nation in the world and the most stable country.

Where we lag behind is in the distribution of wealth, environmental consideration and healthcare. These are things Obama is working to correct. It will be a painful process, but I believe worthy of the ultimate gains from it.

 

[Rickster71]

This is meant as a general thought / statement, and 'Not' directed to anyone in this thread.

I always find it amusing how each subsequent generation of voters thinks that they are the smarter ones, and they will fix all the wrongs, all the problems du jour.
Only to once again fall prey to the psychology of politics, like lemmings over a cliff.

 

[Tomorrow]

California and a few other states are already bankrupt. California is handing out IOU's to welfare recipients and others because the state can't pay their debts. The federal government will likely have to bail out these states (too).

And in all this discussion, it dawns on me that our country itself is perhaps already bankrupt...and I don't mean of the monetary kind.

 

[lsiberian]

California and a few other states are already bankrupt. California is handing out IOU's to welfare recipients and others because the state can't pay their debts. The federal government will likely have to bail out these states (too).

And in all this discussion, it dawns on me that our country itself is perhaps already bankrupt...and I don't mean of the monetary kind.

The problem is we need to raise taxes. But no one will do it. Because it looks bad.

 

[Tomorrow]

The problem is we need to raise taxes. But no one will do it. Because it looks bad.

"Looks bad"?! In case you hadn't noticed...

A. This single Cap and Trade bill implements a HUGE tax burden, the largest in history, and

B. People can't afford it. We have nearly a 10% unemployment rate, massive bureaucratic overspending (by government), untenable national debt approaching 100 TRILLION DOLLARS. This along with the many trillions already spent on 'bailouts', many more trillions proposed for health care.

"Looks bad" isn't the correct phrase, Isiberian. "Insane" is a better description of what Obama and the Reid-Pelosi congress is doing. Our economy (are you a U.S. citizen??) is going in the tank and you want to just hurry it on along for your agenda.

 

[Rickster71]

It is certainly true that politics are a part of life, but there is no current system without propaganda that I'm aware of. It's necessary to run any campaign.

I don't think it's as much the propaganda, as it is the divisive 'Divide and Conquer' practices that are directed toward the American people / Tax payer.
Also the blatant profiteering, under the guise of helping some cause, or special interest group.

Most politicians are lawyers.
As a result, new laws favor the competition of law, not the society that the legislators were mandated to serve.

 

[nibhaz]

The problem is we need to raise taxes. But no one will do it. Because it looks bad.

Perhaps another option would be to reduce government waste and bureaucracy. As a manager in a small business operation with decreasing revenue, I managed to keep the ship upright by reducing cost. If I had approached the situation by raising prices in the current economic environment, I probably wouldn’t be singing the same tune.

Unfortunately the powers that be see the American people and their future earnings as a blank check, and continue to sponsor and create programs that burden the American people and help maintain the illusion of helping the masses.

 

[lsiberian]

I don't think it's as much the propaganda, as it is the divisive 'Divide and Conquer' practices that are directed toward the American people / Tax payer.
Also the blatant profiteering, under the guise of helping some cause, or special interest group.

Most politicians are lawyers.
As a result, new laws favor the competition of law, not the society that the legislators were mandated to serve.

Not entirely. Most politicians are first and foremost wanting to improve our country. This is the case with the majority of politicians I've personally met, watched, and know. They represent our country and our citizens very well. Just look at consumer debt.

The question is are they improving the nation or not. The answer is largely related to the overall quality of life. My quality of life has improved even over the course of this recession which is more a cyclical issue than anything else.

The cap and trade law won't even go into effect until 2020. which is 4 years after Obama leaves office and a likely Republican will take over. The law will probably get repealed then if it looks to be ridiculous.

The recession is being prolonged intentionally to give us time to adjust and not panic. Eventually things will turn around though.

 

[nibhaz]

Not entirely. Most politicians are first and foremost wanting to improve our country. This is the case with the majority of politicians I've personally met, watched, and know. They represent our country and our citizens very well. Just look at consumer debt.

I’m afraid that this is a naively optimistic view and I am sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree.

Actions speak louder than words, and there has been little done by politicians in recent memory to support your assessment. What does consumer debt have to do with your statement?

 

[Nemo128]

I think he means, the bloat and excess in a politician's dealings accurately represents the bloat and excess in the average consumer's life.

 

[nibhaz]

I think he means, the bloat and excess in a politician's dealings accurately represents the bloat and excess in the average consumer's life.

If that is the case than I believe that it is a poor example of our politician’s success.

If anything, it points to their glaring failure as elected representatives of the people.

Representative democracies operate on the premises that the elected individuals will or should make better and more informed decisions than the masses otherwise would. This is its advantage over a true democracy. However, if representative make the same types of mistakes that the masses would have made what is the point?

Unfortunately, today’s government appears to be more of an oligarchy controlled by plutocrats, will attempting at all cost to maintain the appearance of a republic.

 

[lsiberian]

I’m afraid that this is a naively optimistic view and I am sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree.

Because your view asserts moral superiority I caution you against it.

I believe ignorance is a greater source of their struggles than Malice.

 

[Nemo128]

If that is the case than I believe that it is a poor example of our politician’s success.

If anything, it points to their glaring failure as elected representatives of the people.

Representative democracies operate on the premises that the elected individuals will or should make better and more informed decisions than the masses otherwise would. This is its advantage over a true democracy. However, if representative make the same types of mistakes that the masses would have made what is the point?

Unfortunately, today’s government appears to be more of an oligarchy controlled by plutocrats, will attempting at all cost to maintain the appearance of a republic.

Some would argue that they are the epitomy of the belief in personal financial gain at the expense of any, the dog-eat-dog mentality that we're fed from birth. I don't agree with it, but it does happen. I myself was raised to believe I can trust no one and I have to be out for and look out for myself first and foremost.

I fell real far from that tree.

 

[Tomorrow]

If that is the case than I believe that it is a poor example of our politician’s success.

If anything, it points to their glaring failure as elected representatives of the people.

Representative democracies operate on the premises that the elected individuals will or should make better and more informed decisions than the masses otherwise would. This is its advantage over a true democracy. However, if representative make the same types of mistakes that the masses would have made what is the point?

Unfortunately, today’s government appears to be more of an oligarchy controlled by plutocrats, will attempting at all cost to maintain the appearance of a republic.

Thanks, Nibhaz, and well said. It's all very 13th century, don't you think? Lords and fiefdoms to be protected. Taxes to be levied on the struggling commoners.

Here's a little quote from a source...not exactly a bastion of political conservatism...Parade magazine. Of course we all know about those honest, hard working, high morality, good intentioned politicians. (http://www.parade.com/news/intelligence-report/archive/090705-federal-employees-rack-up-big-bills.html) Just one little, tiny example of those who lead us......

Federal Employees Rack Up Big Bills
Ten years ago, Congress created a new system of government credit cards for federal employees booking work-related travel. The cards were meant to curb waste and abuse. But since their introduction, charges have doubled—from $4.39 billion in 1999 to $8.28 billion last year.

Among the expenses flagged in a new report from the Congressional Research Service: $3700 for laser eye surgery, $4100 for a first-class trip to Hawaii, and $100 million in unclaimed refunds for airline tickets that were purchased but never used.

“The Obama Administration came in promising to cut waste, and this is really the low-hanging fruit,” says Scott Amey, general counsel to the nonpartisan Project on Government Oversight.

Despite guidelines from the Office of Management and Budget, oversight of employee spending has been inconsistent at best. Now, Sen. Charles Grassley (R., Iowa) has introduced a bill that would require inspectors general in each agency to monitor the use of government credit cards more closely. Abusers could face criminal charges, be fired, or be required to reimburse the government for losses.

When he introduced the measure this spring, Grassley cited Congressional investigations that found that government travel cards had been used to pay for gambling, sporting events, concerts, cruises, and even gentlemen’s clubs and legalized brothels.

“Clearly, we still have a problem,” the Senator says.

— J. Scott Orr