wah wah red chicklet + politics thread

[highfigh]

I personally have no issues with having classes. It's natural. What bothers me is that we have enough resources on the planet to feed everyone, yet so many starve to death. I'm not talking about the lazy as they should starve, but hard-working people.

I often wonder why the military is usually in power in countries where they have few natural resources, but they have huge populations. Look at the genocide in African countries- the rest of the world sends aid but nobody tries to do all that much about the killing. We know people from anywhere can learn just about anything, with the proper training. Those countries are absolutely desperate and have been since long before some of them were taken as part of some other country's empire. The "leaders" are doing literally nothing good for the people of those countries, yet all the rest of the world does is send food and teachers. Feeding miserable people doesn't fix the problem.

Re: societal classes- someone will always be at the top and someone will always be at the bottom, whether it's because of access to money, influence or power. Also, some just don't have what it takes to make it to the top, so they end up somewhere else. The problem with making everyone the same is that the best end up with the same desire to succeed- none. The dregs never had it and were given everything but the best had everything taken from them. Once the government gives everyone everything, there's no incentive to rise to the top, be creative, invent something, solve problems, make a difference.

Personally, I think the way Welfare was handled ruined several generations of low income people in this country, mainly blacks. When I was a kid, my dad had a small business in an area of town that was very close to what had been known as Bronzeville. Bronzeville was really everything Downtown was, except it was almost populated and the shops/clubs/businesses were patronized almost exclusively by blacks. At one point, his business was in Bronzeville, partially because he grew up not all that far from there. The people who came to his business were a real cross-section of the population. I have to think the minority people who came in must be terribly disappointed in the way things have gone because even though they may not have had much in the way of property and possessions, they were proud of what they had, they took care of what they had and they worked for it. Welfare made it unnecessary to work for what some people wanted, they didn't bother to work, sat around all day, got into trouble and went to jail/prison, got out and got into more trouble, etc. I have lived in some parts of Milwaukee that I tend to not go to now. It's just not worth the risk of becoming collateral damage. The chance of being the target of black on white crime is actually low here but what blacks are doing to each other is incredibly sad.

The way I see Obama heading is not where I think we need to go. This much can NOT be changed quickly and he did a great job of making people think it could be. Sweeping changes are almost impossible to implement but when someone does them quickly, it is impossible to develop them with any degree of certainty about their outcome. The bailouts are very weakly designed and not many details have been released. All they seem to have done is say "We have problems and here's how we're taking care of them", but if you think about it, a few months isn't even long enough to determine exactly who did what, when and what the proper solution should be. That's not far from "Well, we had to do something".

 

[markw]

Yeah, you're young.

haha I may just be young but do republicans always get this scared when we elect a democratic president?

Never before has an American president ever taken control of a major corporation, siezed the reighns of the banking industry and did so with the cheering of the masses. But, it did happen in Germany about 75 years ago. You may want to google "Reichstag fire" to perhaps understand what a the fuss is about.

 

[highfigh]

Don't get all fussy. We've lasted 232 years with the current system and there have always been tensions, challenges, and crisis. But somehow we always pull through.

FYI politicians are people too. It's easy to demonize your enemies. But unless you personally know Obama you can't really decide on his character. You only get the Media's idea of him. I suggest you stop listening to conservative radio and maybe broaden your horizons.

But I'm a moderate(swing voter) Swings are so fun. If you want to win the white house back you have to convince me.

First of all, our system barely resembles that it was 232 years ago and while I agree that it couldn't remain exactly as it started, it's less a Federal Republic and more a Democracy which, in it's pure form, usually devolves into a Mobocracy. "Everyone gets some and we all voted for it" doesn't bother to take into account whether it's the right thing.

Second, IIRC, I told you or someone else that I never listen to conservative radio. Don't jump to conclusions about me- you don't know me. I like the system we're supposed to have but I don't like most of who's in our government, on both sides. I'm not a hard core right winger but I do think we need to toss the anchor out to keep from going over the falls. Spending the way they have been for the last three terms is exactly the way sub-prime borrowers got into trouble. The "I must have money- I still have checks" mentality is a really bad way to run things.

Let me try this out on ya-

Run the government like a business- justify the expenses, work as efficiently as possible and if the people in government don't do their job well, they lose that job. I'm not referring only to Congress and elected offices, either.

We have too many agencies, filled with people who use their jobs in government as a safety net- do a bad job, don't work too fast and you'll "get along" fine. I want them to have performance reviews. Adding more government oversight just slows everything down.

If a large project is needed, do it like a private sector project- if it's done on time and within within the budget, the people who make it happen get a bonus, not a bribe or kickback for setting up the deal. If it's behind or wildly over budget, they're penalized. The thread about buying online or from a B&M dealer is a good example- we all want things for a lower price but the thing we pay the most for, is the lowest quality, most wasteful thing I can think of.

People who can't seem to finish school and end up leading a life of crime- make them do something constructive while they're incarcerated and I don't mean a computer job with access to social security and credit card numbers, They finish school and get a GED. Period. Whatever happened to "Pay your debt to to society"? The only thing a lot of convicts have learned is how to commit bigger and better crimes. The recidivism rate is appalling.

People who are on Welfare and programs like that- if they have a job, make it easier for them to take some classes so they can advance. Sure, it's going to cut into their free time but it's a helluva lot better than spending that time wasted or hanging out with people who just don't want to do anything good. If they don't have a job, they can get assistance for a set period but they have to finish or go to school. If they don't show any advancement in school, they don't get more assistance.

People have to realize that they won't ever dig out of their hole if they drop out in middle/high school and hang out, getting wasted all the time. A lot of people have had no hope for a long time but if they are shown that knowledge and education are a great way to help themselves, they'll see that life can be better for them. People have to see that they have the opportunities but they shouldn't expect everything to be given to them.

We have some really poor people in this country and for some, it's because they gave up.
Look at the people who come here and don't speak a work of English, yet in a decade or so, go to school, learn the language and own at least one business. They had some kind of life in their home country and because they worked for it, they got what many here think is impossible.

What people need is a change in their way of thinking. First step is to actually start thinking about "what happens if?". "What happens if I finish school, instead of dropping out and getting a low paying job?" "What happens if I steal this car instead of staying home?" "What happens if I get a second job, instead of hanging out at a bar or getting wasted with my friends?" "If I only had a gun, I could rob that bank." "If I have more kids, I get more money". People will always have to make choices and they need to think about the consequences of what they do. Shooting people in real life is not like a video game and when someone screws up, they need to pay the penalty, take responsibility and learn from their mistakes.

The legal system is a whole issue in itself. Obviously, this only scratches the surface but I think far too many have learned to expect too much from others when they could easily do things for themselves. For them, having a sense of accomplishment means nothing. The US used to have the attitude that "Together, we can do anything" and it has become "Screw you! Do it yourself!".

 

[highfigh]

Fundamental flaw in your thinking. There has NEVER been one, period. Every supposed society without class boundaries have proven to be an illusion. For example, people think Cuba is one such society. There are two classes there:

1. The haves, which exclusively consist of the regime supporters, the military, and the government itself.

2. Everyone else who has absolutely nothing and can get absolutely nothing without allying themselves with the haves.

To ask to be shown one that has worked is flawed simply because as soon as those that have existed sway towards the capitalist way of thinking, that those who have the money have the power, they have all turned into failures with respect to the good of their people. NO example has been exempt from this very basic flaw, and our country is no different. We just have even more money at the top and even less opportunity at the very bottom.

Argue that last line with me all you want too, but I know more poor people that have received afforable, quality educations and healthcare in those supposedly shoddy countries than even some of our middle class citizens who have been able to create comfortable, hard-working, successful lives there and abroad.

How is my telling someone else to name a classless society that worked, a flaw in my thinking? I never said classless works. You might want to read farther back to see that I don't think what's happening is good and that classless has never worked.

I don't know how you came to think what you did about that post but just read the words, not what you think I mean.

 

[Nemo128]

How is my telling someone else to name a classless society that worked, a flaw in my thinking? I never said classless works. You might want to read farther back to see that I don't think what's happening is good and that classless has never worked.

I don't know how you came to think what you did about that post but just read the words, not what you think I mean.

You asked for an example. I said there are none, and I gave the reason why there are none. YOUR rationale is that none have worked. The truth is, none exist because they have moved towards the system you believe is sustainable.

Maybe you missed this exact statement:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"To ask to be shown one that has worked is flawed simply because as soon as those that have existed sway towards the capitalist way of thinking, that those who have the money have the power, they have all turned into failures with respect to the good of their people."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is the flaw. See it now? The flaw is in believing that being unable to provide said example means the system in question does not work. It can't exist if it has fallen to another system in which greed and oppression are the order of the day. It's the same flaw that empowers religious wars, hate crimes, and sexism. The violence in Iraq, the war in Afganistan, the pirating and unrest in Somalia, based on your thinking they are all proof that this so-called democracy of ours is a failure. It doesn't work there, I guess it doesn't work at all.

The real flaw in most people's thinking is the belief that these political and economic systems have problems. The problem is the PEOPLE. PEOPLE are the problem in every system. You live in a system that has many socialist fundamentals, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's the PEOPLE that abuse the system who create the problem, just like greed is the destruction of the free market and militaristic power is the destruction of communism.

Yes, you exactly said classless has never worked, that's what I addressed. I told you why it has never worked. You might want to fully absorb what someone is saying before you criticize it, because I fully understood and absorbed your opposition to a classless society and your belief that it does not work.

 

[Seth=L]

Aberkowitz, you are correct it was just some information I received and posted to stimulate the mind. It is not my opinion or writing. Oh well, apparently I p*ssed off someone to give a unsigned red chicklet. Sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone.

Peace,

MidCow2

P.S. - It was posted in a Steam Vent thread

You knew you would get a red chicklet! I didn't expect anyone to be such a coward not to sign it.

wah wah is right.

 

[highfigh]

You asked for an example. I said there are none, and I gave the reason why there are none. YOUR rationale is that none have worked. The truth is, none exist because they have moved towards the system you believe is sustainable.

Maybe you missed this exact statement:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"To ask to be shown one that has worked is flawed simply because as soon as those that have existed sway towards the capitalist way of thinking, that those who have the money have the power, they have all turned into failures with respect to the good of their people."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is the flaw. See it now? The flaw is in believing that being unable to provide said example means the system in question does not work. It can't exist if it has fallen to another system in which greed and oppression are the order of the day. It's the same flaw that empowers religious wars, hate crimes, and sexism. The violence in Iraq, the war in Afganistan, the pirating and unrest in Somalia, based on your thinking they are all proof that this so-called democracy of ours is a failure. It doesn't work there, I guess it doesn't work at all.

The real flaw in most people's thinking is the belief that these political and economic systems have problems. The problem is the PEOPLE. PEOPLE are the problem in every system. You live in a system that has many socialist fundamentals, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's the PEOPLE that abuse the system who create the problem, just like greed is the destruction of the free market and militaristic power is the destruction of communism.

Yes, you exactly said classless has never worked, that's what I addressed. I told you why it has never worked. You might want to fully absorb what someone is saying before you criticize it, because I fully understood and absorbed your opposition to a classless society and your belief that it does not work.

I asked someone else for an example, because they seemed to think it could work and had commented that business has made sure that not everyone is equal. What rationale? I posted "Name one classless society that worked" and you decided that my logic was faulty. You now add "The truth is, none exist because they have moved towards the system you believe is sustainable.". How is that different from saying that a classless society doesn't work? If it worked, they wouldn't have gone back to another type, would they?

"based on your thinking they are all proof that this so-called democracy of ours is a failure. It doesn't work there, I guess it doesn't work at all."

First, we aren't a true Democracy, we're a Federal Republic with some aspects of Democracy. The countries you name are/were dictatorships, at best.

"The problem is the PEOPLE. PEOPLE are the problem in every system."

I absolutely agree with you on this (more, if it was possible). I thought my last long post was too long as it is, so I didn't even get into this aspect. The fact that people can take the most sincere gesture as an insult, destroy things of beauty, other people just because they want what the other has, "just because I felt like it" or as a good example, what happened today in Binghamton, NY, never ceases to amaze, confuse and disgust me. I was thinking after I posted before, about the fact that so many people in all walks of life lack discipline, morals and conscience but I truly think it's an offshoot of the 1960s "if it feels good, do it" crap. That lead to a large segment of that generation not teaching their kids that actions have real consequences and that when someone screws up, they have to make up for it. That generation in turn, did what it felt like doing, with little to make them think that it could be a problem. Now, look at what we have- Columbine, serial murderers, teachers and students having sex and rampant amoral behavior in regular life, as well as in business. Look at who's in Congress now- either they were in college when "If it feels good, do it" was going on or they're that generations kids.

At some point, people HAVE to think about not being a totally selfish POS.

 

[Seth=L]

oh people, can't live with them..can't live without out em'

 

[highfigh]

FYI politicians are people too. It's easy to demonize your enemies. But unless you personally know Obama you can't really decide on his character. You only get the Media's idea of him.

If this is true, why did so many people vote for him? He only lets out the information about himself that he wants out, he told the media that his wife was "off limits" during the campaign and I have NEVER seen that happen before. He said he wouldn't run for POTUS until his first Senate term was done, and less than 6 months later, he announced that he was running. There's a lot that I have read about his that I don't like. I actually liked what he was saying, at first. Then, after hearing what he gradually added, I became alarmed. Honestly, I hope this bus can actually turn around without expansion of government's powers ( I think it has too many powers now), without a protracted recession or depression, weakened national security and without a major war to jump start the economy. I don't hope for this out of any loyalty to a political party either, because as far as I'm concerned, many of the members of Congress are a disgrace, IMO. Lying, conceited, tax evasion, skirting immigration laws so they can have domestic help, using a military jet for personal flights (Pelosi, along with her StarKist BS), denying government agencies are in or nearing crisis when they were instrumental in putting them in that position (Barney Frank, Franklin Raines and Chris Dodd, among others)- that's not who I want in my government.

 

[highfigh]

oh people, can't live with them..can't live without out em'

I have met the enemy, and he is us!

 

[highfigh]

It fails to mention that he was mustard gased in WW I which is why he started hating the Jews. He felt they didn't support Germany's WW I effort enough.

That's really not all of it- Jews have been persecuted in Europe for well over a thousand years. When they couldn't make some of the claims against them stick, they tried to get people to believe they were vampires. Also, at least one of Hitler's Grandparents was Jewish. Schickelgruber, IIRC.

 

[Davemcc]

Let's not forget that Hitler was more a conservative than liberal as is the case with the majority of dictatorships historically.

That is the most often presented falsehood in modern history. The Nazi Party is short for National Socialists and they called themselves socialists for a reason...because they were socialists. They presented a very left wing populist platform in the German elections. If you don't believe me, you can find the election platform and the founding principles of the party online. Many of the articles of their platform are strikingly similar to the campaign issues of today, such as health care, joblessness, small business, infrastructure, even a policy of nationally funded vacations for workers which was actually implemented as the KdF, never mind "the People's Car". The Nazi's presented a classic left-wing socialist platform that has been rebranded into some right wing whitewash to shield socialism from any association with the ultimate actions of the Nazis. This is one of the greatest and most perpetuated lies of the twentieth century.

Please don't take my word for it. Investigate it yourself and prove me wrong.

 

[Davemcc]

Or, we can take your direction: Knock the controls off of business. No matter the sector and let the system run free. That scares me to my core.

Businesses are owned and run by people. They are not nameless and faceless. In a free society, people determine the success or failure of businesses by voting with their dollars in the same way that people vote for politicians with votes. The kind of "controls" you want on "business" is simply a generic way of saying that you don't want your neighbor to be free in his livelihood because it scares you, although you have NO compelling reason to do business with him. But you will use the coercive power of the state to limit his rights when it suits you.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin.

There is still something to learn from the men who made your nation great in the first place.

 

[jinjuku]

We already have a catastrophe. He's just trying to control everything and trust me, when the government controls everything, it's time to get out of Dodge.

I think when the corporations control everything it is time to get out of dodge:

Patent law is favor of big business
Copyright is in favor of big business
Tort law is in favor of big business
Bankruptcy law is in favor of big business
Employee rights are in favor of big business

I love how lending when crazy starting around 2000, and then in 2004 bankruptcy laws are changed to inure to the benefit of big business.

I love how Disney gets their start producing cartoons based on stories from the public domain. But Disney gets copyright laws changed when Mickey Mouse is about to enter the Public Domain.

For Gods (and ours) I would hope government will take back over and serve our common good.

 

[jinjuku]

Businesses are owned and run by people. They are not nameless and faceless. In a free society, people determine the success or failure of businesses by voting with their dollars in the same way that people vote for politicians with votes. The kind of "controls" you want on "business" is simply a generic way of saying that you don't want your neighbor to be free in his livelihood because it scares you, although you have NO compelling reason to do business with him. But you will use the coercive power of the state to limit his rights when it suits you.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin.

There is still something to learn from the men who made your nation great in the first place.

Sorry that you could only reach such a limited interpretation of what I said. Our current economic crisis is based on business that ran unchecked.

Bernie Madoff ran a 50 BILLION dollar Ponzi scheme. How should that even be doable? It's doable because the wheels where knocked off and he was allowed to run a business unchecked.

How come we had a CDS market with a valuation of 62 TRILLION? Because there was a securitization of mutual fund bundled together (both the good and bad) and rated AAA and there were no 'wheels' on it to keep it from going haywire.

How come Disney can make their mint with cartoons made on stories out of the public domain. Mickey Mouse comes up for public domain and copyright is somehow now 117 years (used to be 15 - 30 depending on the work).

Funny that you quote Ben Franklin. Liberty from big business is exactly what I want. Safety? I can take care of that my self.

 

[Davemcc]

Bernie Madoff ran a 50 BILLION dollar Ponzi scheme. How should that even be doable?

It's not that there weren't laws and regulation in place. They weren't followed or enforced due to bureaucratic incompetence or any various other reasons. The reason he got away with this in the first place is that he practiced a calculated plan of fraud and deception. Even the Stasi or NKVD couldn't catch every fraud or deception even with their considerable resources and intrusion into the lives of ordinary citizens. Surely that's not the answer.

How come we had a CDS market with a valuation of 62 TRILLION? Because there was a securitization of mutual fund bundled together (both the good and bad) and rated AAA and there were no 'wheels' on it to keep it from going haywire.

There is such a thing as due diligence. Why did those buyers accept those securities as AAA without even looking at what they contained. There is a mutual blame involved here. On the seller's part marketing the securities fraudulently and the buyer's accepting the securities without due diligence. I mean, if somebody wants to sell me a car and tells me it's a Cadillac, I'm going to make darn sure I know what a Cadillac looks like. But if he rolls back the odometer and deliberately commits a fraud, I may find out too late and take a loss.

How come Disney can make their mint with cartoons made on stories out of the public domain. Mickey Mouse comes up for public domain and copyright is somehow now 117 years (used to be 15 - 30 depending on the work).

Public domain and copyright? Isn't that something you should be taking up with your gov't or does Disney make the laws of the land now. Such laws are passed by politicians elected by average citizens, yet the citizens and politicians are rarely held accountable and some generic anti-big-business mantra demonizes businesses that follow the law as enacted by the elected gov't.

Funny that you quote Ben Franklin. Liberty from big business is exactly what I want. Safety? I can take care of that my self.

You have liberty from big business. You have no reason on earth to deal with a big business. Big business only exists by people like you giving them money in exchange for a product or service. Ben Franklin has most certainly given you freedom from big business with your choice to walk away. If you ask business people, they are asking for freedom from gov't and the petty whims of the citizens who seek to limit their legitimate enterprise. I truly hope that your occupation isn't on the next list of activities people want "freedom" from.

 

[rnatalli]

That is the most often presented falsehood in modern history. The Nazi Party is short for National Socialists and they called themselves socialists for a reason...because they were socialists. They presented a very left wing populist platform in the German elections. If you don't believe me, you can find the election platform and the founding principles of the party online. Many of the articles of their platform are strikingly similar to the campaign issues of today, such as health care, joblessness, small business, infrastructure, even a policy of nationally funded vacations for workers which was actually implemented as the KdF, never mind "the People's Car". The Nazi's presented a classic left-wing socialist platform that has been rebranded into some right wing whitewash to shield socialism from any association with the ultimate actions of the Nazis. This is one of the greatest and most perpetuated lies of the twentieth century.

Please don't take my word for it. Investigate it yourself and prove me wrong.

Of course they presented a populist agenda and called themselves "socialists" as this was how to win elections at that time. However, presenting and doing are different things. And your suggestion that somehow this socialist platform was rebranded into a right-wing whitewash is ridiculous considering the hostility towards socialism and communism following WWII. I think it is you who needs to investigate this with a source other than the media. Ask some reputable historians rather than looking to what folks in the media might have you believe. Or simply think about it. Do you truly believe Hitler was a super liberal? Short of being a vegetarian, I don't see it.

 

[highfigh]

I think when the corporations control everything it is time to get out of dodge:

Patent law is favor of big business
Copyright is in favor of big business
Tort law is in favor of big business
Bankruptcy law is in favor of big business
Employee rights are in favor of big business

I love how lending when crazy starting around 2000, and then in 2004 bankruptcy laws are changed to inure to the benefit of big business.

I love how Disney gets their start producing cartoons based on stories from the public domain. But Disney gets copyright laws changed when Mickey Mouse is about to enter the Public Domain.

For Gods (and ours) I would hope government will take back over and serve our common good.

You sound like an old hippie when you post this stuff.

Patent Law is for anyone who has the creativity and ambition to create or improve something that has practical and marketable uses, and exists to protect the inventor from having that idea used by someone else for their gain. You seem to think that only big business uses patents, but most are just some little guy with an idea. One thing you apparently don't know is that patents are often donated by the holder. Many lifetime patents go to schools, universities, foundations and other organizations, as a means for perpetual income.

Again, your paranoia has taken over. If you write a song, article, book or anything that could be reused for profit by someone other than you, copyrighting protects you from someone using your material without your permission. It's also part of "intellectual property" and is how China is cheating many out of millions, if not billions of dollars.

The rest just makes you look too paranoid to even comment. All of these benefit anyone who needs them. Big businesses that think they're above the law, outside of the boundaries and that think their crap doesn't stink are the problem.

 

[highfigh]

Of course they presented a populist agenda and called themselves "socialists" as this was how to win elections at that time. However, presenting and doing are different things. And your suggestion that somehow this socialist platform was rebranded into a right-wing whitewash is ridiculous considering the hostility towards socialism and communism following WWII. I think it is you who needs to investigate this with a source other than the media. Ask some reputable historians rather than looking to what folks in the media might have you believe. Or simply think about it. Do you truly believe Hitler was a super liberal? Short of being a vegetarian, I don't see it.

Not much different from presenting populist ideas and calling themselves 'Democrat', to keep from being called 'Socialist', in order to win the election, eh?

 

[highfigh]

Sorry that you could only reach such a limited interpretation of what I said. Our current economic crisis is based on business that ran unchecked.

How come we had a CDS market with a valuation of 62 TRILLION? Because there was a securitization of mutual fund bundled together (both the good and bad) and rated AAA and there were no 'wheels' on it to keep it from going haywire.

How come Disney can make their mint with cartoons made on stories out of the public domain. Mickey Mouse comes up for public domain and copyright is somehow now 117 years (used to be 15 - 30 depending on the work).

Funny that you quote Ben Franklin. Liberty from big business is exactly what I want. Safety? I can take care of that my self.

"Bernie Madoff ran a 50 BILLION dollar Ponzi scheme. How should that even be doable? It's doable because the wheels where knocked off and he was allowed to run a business unchecked."

It happened because many of the investors' eyes got really big and glassy when they heard about the reported returns from the fund. Greed and fear drive the markets and money has no conscience. Never has.

What is politics, if not associations and deals being done in less than public ways? When politicians can be bought yes, the businesses who pay them, benefit. This isn't new but the fact that it has gone on for so long doesn't make it right. In another post, I agreed that people are the problem, and I stand by that. As nice as it would be to continue to think that people are basically good, I'm seeing very little evidence for that argument. Human nature causes people to behave in ways they may not have thought possible. Sure, some people have gone their whole lives being saint-like but what I see happening lately is sickening.

Businesses are run by people. People use, screw, control, abuse and deceive people in order to have "more". More what, doesn't matter as long as they have more of something. The saying "He who has the gold, makes the rules" has never been more true.