Speaker Cable Hype ???

[highfigh]

I accept that some of these cables can make music sound better, due to coloration in some frequencies(or something like that).
But this is like buying an expensive EQs with fixed params. This reminds me of "audiophile amplifiers" and the "valve sound".

IMHO, it seems that these buyers are trying to build a system that sounds as close to perfection (as perceived by them) as possible. If a cable can take that last step to get the sound they're after I can understand why they pay so much for them. While there could be better, versatile and cheaper ways to get there, to each it's own. The downside to this is that others become influenced and just buy these cables for the wrong reasons.

The problem I have with the whole way this stuff is marketed is that one cable can sound dull compared with another and with cheap hardware/software, it may be possible to discern why but they sell it as a life altering event. If we buy one company's cables instead of another, we won't see God. We may hear more detail, but I would like to see more objective testing. I have to think that if it's an audible difference, it's measurable. They may not be measuring what is different, so they need to keep looking. Something made the wire vendor change something and if it was intentional, someone knows what made it different. High inductance will kill the highs- it works in a passive crossover, so there's no difference if it's in the wire or speaker. When someone compares two cables that are the same coincidentally, no difference will be heard but when one is measurably different, it should be audible. In this respect, an impedance test is valid for speaker cables. If teh Z is higher at low frequencies, it has higher capacitance and if the Z is high at high frequencies, it's more inductive. It ain't rocket surgery but it has reached mythical proportions.

 

[Hipnotic4]

The problem I have with the whole way this stuff is marketed is that one cable can sound dull compared with another and with cheap hardware/software, it may be possible to discern why but they sell it as a life altering event. If we buy one company's cables instead of another, we won't see God. We may hear more detail, but I would like to see more objective testing. I have to think that if it's an audible difference, it's measurable. They may not be measuring what is different, so they need to keep looking. Something made the wire vendor change something and if it was intentional, someone knows what made it different. High inductance will kill the highs- it works in a passive crossover, so there's no difference if it's in the wire or speaker. When someone compares two cables that are the same coincidentally, no difference will be heard but when one is measurably different, it should be audible. In this respect, an impedance test is valid for speaker cables. If teh Z is higher at low frequencies, it has higher capacitance and if the Z is high at high frequencies, it's more inductive. It ain't rocket surgery but it has reached mythical proportions.

The differences in cables DO matter on "paper", but in real world applications, the noted differences don't help add a justifiable value for the price your going to pay for "somewhat" better sound.

The gap between better and best is not always a huge one, But then again, thats why we have marketing

 

[highfigh]

The differences in cables DO matter on "paper", but in real world applications, the noted differences don't help add a justifiable value for the price your going to pay for "somewhat" better sound.

The gap between better and best is not always a huge one, But then again, thats why we have marketing

If it's not a huge difference, saying that it is is, oh, I don't know, is 'lying' too harsh a word? Fraud is another one that seems to fit and if it's over a certain amount of money, it's a felony but it's being called 'marketing'. I guess it depends on which side you're on- the company that came up with a new way to make millions by selling what people can usually go to a hardware store to buy, the customer who paid a ton for something they don't think they're getting, the dealer who sees that they can make a large % of profit for wire that really isn't that special in most cases, the sales person who can lose their job if they don't push this crap onto all of their customers, the potential customers of some kind of cable who is totally confused by all of the hype and contradictory opinions or the small dealer who would sell this stuff if he didn't have a conscience. Then, there are the ones who are absolutely convinced that they made the best investment in their system and won't accept that nobody else can hear the difference.

One phrase I never hear is "Prove it", when these claims are made. Charts and pretty graphs on a product sheet prove absolutely nothing.

 

[Swerd]

If it's not a huge difference, saying that it is is, oh, I don't know, is 'lying' too harsh a word? Fraud is another one that seems to fit and if it's over a certain amount of money, it's a felony but it's being called 'marketing'...

highfigh

Even though I completely agree with your opinions about audio cables, I usually ignore these types of threads only because I've gotten very tired of this subject. Just why I've been following this thread is not clear to me - maybe I'm not busy enough. Anyway, your experience as a hifi dealer (am I correct about that?) and your passion about the subject of voodoo audio cables is admirable. I commend you for that. It may be rare in your business.

As far as false marketing claims about audio cables, I thought you might enjoy this story. I have a friend who works for the Federal Trade Commission. He was involved in the FTC's recent review of rules regarding receiver and amplifier power ratings (no big changes were made to the existing rules), so I knew he was aware of audio matters.

When I asked him if the FTC was concerned about false marketing of audio cables, his answer was "We don't go there. And you shouldn't either." With all the really big fraud in investing, banking & real estate, as well as the felonies in identity theft, the FTC just could not get interested fish that small. They may have been concerned with Monster at one time in the past, but there is so much competition from numerous small cable companies, that they decided to ignore it. With so many B&M retail stores like CC failing, Monster's business model may be in trouble. It was interesting to hear that perspective.

I liked his understated humor so much that when anyone today asks me about exotic cables, I repeat his advice, "We don't go there. And you shouldn't either"...

 

[lsiberian]

Man, some of you guys got me guessing on my 16 gauge. It was simply the thickest they had when I was in home depot.

Maybe I'll buy some BJ 12 gauge for kicks. Im thinking runs of 15-30 ft, speakers that do drop to 4 ohms or less.

I just don't like spending good money on speaker wire. But maybe I need to step up on the gauge.

Please feel free to talk me out of it! I thought the last time I perused roger russell's chart, that I'd be fine, more or less . . .

ciao

don't waste your money. Why not buy a couple of Blu-rays instead. I guarantee you that will be far more enjoyable and that the blu-rays will have better sound than the cables

 

[Hipnotic4]

If it's not a huge difference, saying that it is is, oh, I don't know, is 'lying' too harsh a word? Fraud is another one that seems to fit and if it's over a certain amount of money, it's a felony but it's being called 'marketing'. I guess it depends on which side you're on- the company that came up with a new way to make millions by selling what people can usually go to a hardware store to buy, the customer who paid a ton for something they don't think they're getting, the dealer who sees that they can make a large % of profit for wire that really isn't that special in most cases, the sales person who can lose their job if they don't push this crap onto all of their customers, the potential customers of some kind of cable who is totally confused by all of the hype and contradictory opinions or the small dealer who would sell this stuff if he didn't have a conscience. Then, there are the ones who are absolutely convinced that they made the best investment in their system and won't accept that nobody else can hear the difference.

One phrase I never hear is "Prove it", when these claims are made. Charts and pretty graphs on a product sheet prove absolutely nothing.

it can be "fraud" depending on what end of the table your on..

People have done tests, numerous times, "proving" little to no difference in cables. As long as their is people willing to spend the extra $$ on that "better" product, their will be people willing to sell it to them why not?

 

[ChunkyDark]

The placebo effect can and does cure cancer daily. Don't underestimate it's power to color our perception of sound.

 

[highfigh]

"... I usually ignore these types of threads only because I've gotten very tired of this subject. Just why I've been following this thread is not clear to me - maybe I'm not busy enough."

Maybe it's like not being able to look away when you know something bad is about to happen, or being fascinated when you see a house on fire.

"As far as false marketing claims about audio cables, I thought you might enjoy this story. I have a friend who works for the Federal Trade Commission. He was involved in the FTC's recent review of rules regarding receiver and amplifier power ratings (no big changes were made to the existing rules), so I knew he was aware of audio matters.

When I asked him if the FTC was concerned about false marketing of audio cables, his answer was "We don't go there. And you shouldn't either." With all the really big fraud in investing, banking & real estate, as well as the felonies in identity theft, the FTC just could not get interested fish that small. They may have been concerned with Monster at one time in the past, but there is so much competition from numerous small cable companies, that they decided to ignore it. With so many B&M retail stores like CC failing, Monster's business model may be in trouble. It was interesting to hear that perspective."

He's being bought, pure and simple.

"I liked his understated humor so much that when anyone today asks me about exotic cables, I repeat his advice, "We don't go there. And you shouldn't either"."

I'd like to be able to say that but when customers ask, I need to have an answer. I did a system and the customer asked about interconnects for his 150W/ch tube amp. I told him that I can get a lot of brands but the $4900.00/6ft pair type is insane. I got some IXOS XLR cables and the first thing that struck, and irritated, me was the packaging. Next was the fact that they use no-name XLR ends, three colors of wire, braided with a translucent white nylon mesh sleeve. They list for $400 and that's all they are. I can braid wire, get nylon mesh and I can buy Neutrik ends for $6 apiece. I can guarantee that the wire is nothing special. A half hour and $30 could have made more money and been easily as good. The IXOS didn't sound any better than my old 25' Audio Technica mic cables and I had someone switch them without telling me if they were changed or which wer being used.

 

[highfigh]

Man, some of you guys got me guessing on my 16 gauge. It was simply the thickest they had when I was in home depot.

Maybe I'll buy some BJ 12 gauge for kicks. Im thinking runs of 15-30 ft, speakers that do drop to 4 ohms or less.

I just don't like spending good money on speaker wire. But maybe I need to step up on the gauge.

Please feel free to talk me out of it! I thought the last time I perused roger russell's chart, that I'd be fine, more or less . . .

ciao

Look for the low voltage outdoor lighting wire. It comes in 12ga and 14ga- same rack as the rest of the bulk wire/cable and has black insulation.

 

[greggp2]

Ok guys. I did my double blinded test tonight. I listened to two different CD's. Peter Gabriel's Shaking the Tree and Diana Krall's, The look of love DVD-A. I only ran it in Stereo mode with no sub. I have B&W 802's for those of you that don't want to read this whole thread from the beginning. I bi-amped my Yamaha 3900 and hooked up banana's to my old, heavily insulated Monster cable that looks like it's about 8 gauge due to the unnecessary insulation, but is really about 14 gauge, if I had to guess. This made switching the two cables very easy, as I didn't have to change anything from the Receiver/Amp side.

The verdict? After listening to both at high volume levels (I think my ears are going to bleed), I determined very little difference between the two cables. I even used my SPL meter to see if there was a decibel difference and the more expensive Audioquest cables seemed to be a little more consistant in holding the decibel readings and had a little more bass extension, but honestly, they didn't sound that much better than the Monster cables I had.

I guess the placebo effect holds true. The Audioquest cables had a slight advantage because they were quad cables that are joined into a single connection. Therefore, they are roughly about 11 gauge as compared to the 14 gauge of the Monster cable. It would have been equalized if I ran two Monster cables to each speaker and likely would have transmitted more signal.

Moral to the story, I'm seriously considering selling my Audioquest cables ( I have 2 Front 15 foot runs and an 8 foot center cable run) making $1,000 and then purchasing quad run bi-wire connections from Blue Jeans...

I can't believe my results. I was really hoping to be able to come here and tell you there was a major audible difference, but in all honesty, it was so slight and could have been contributed to the double run/higher gauge.

You guys were right again!!! I love this site, and feel so gullable.

Thanks,

Gregg

 

[greggp2]

Also, I'm returning 2 Monster HDMI cables I purchased at Best Buy Magnolia for over $300 two weeks ago and ordering two high end HDMI cables from Blue Jeans tomorrow. I'll be saving over $260...

 

[cl35m]

Ok guys. I did my double blinded test tonight. I listened to two different CD's. Peter Gabriel's Shaking the Tree and Diana Krall's, The look of love DVD-A. I only ran it in Stereo mode with no sub. I have B&W 802's for those of you that don't want to read this whole thread from the beginning. I bi-amped my Yamaha 3900 and hooked up banana's to my old, heavily insulated Monster cable that looks like it's about 8 gauge due to the unnecessary insulation, but is really about 14 gauge, if I had to guess. This made switching the two cables very easy, as I didn't have to change anything from the Receiver/Amp side.

The verdict? After listening to both at high volume levels (I think my ears are going to bleed), I determined very little difference between the two cables. I even used my SPL meter to see if there was a decibel difference and the more expensive Audioquest cables seemed to be a little more consistant in holding the decibel readings and had a little more bass extension, but honestly, they didn't sound that much better than the Monster cables I had.

I guess the placebo effect holds true. The Audioquest cables had a slight advantage because they were quad cables that are joined into a single connection. Therefore, they are roughly about 11 gauge as compared to the 14 gauge of the Monster cable. It would have been equalized if I ran two Monster cables to each speaker and likely would have transmitted more signal.

Moral to the story, I'm seriously considering selling my Audioquest cables ( I have 2 Front 15 foot runs and an 8 foot center cable run) making $1,000 and then purchasing quad run bi-wire connections from Blue Jeans...

I can't believe my results. I was really hoping to be able to come here and tell you there was a major audible difference, but in all honesty, it was so slight and could have been contributed to the double run/higher gauge.

You guys were right again!!! I love this site, and feel so gullable.

Thanks,

Gregg

I would love to hear your impressions of 10-12 ga solid core romex. It's all I use and have no plans to switch.

 

[highfigh]

The verdict? After listening to both at high volume levels (I think my ears are going to bleed), I determined very little difference between the two cables. I even used my SPL meter to see if there was a decibel difference and the more expensive Audioquest cables seemed to be a little more consistant in holding the decibel readings and had a little more bass extension, but honestly, they didn't sound that much better than the Monster cables I had.

I guess the placebo effect holds true. The Audioquest cables had a slight advantage because they were quad cables that are joined into a single connection. Therefore, they are roughly about 11 gauge as compared to the 14 gauge of the Monster cable. It would have been equalized if I ran two Monster cables to each speaker and likely would have transmitted more signal.

Moral to the story, I'm seriously considering selling my Audioquest cables ( I have 2 Front 15 foot runs and an 8 foot center cable run) making $1,000 and then purchasing quad run bi-wire connections from Blue Jeans...

I can't believe my results. I was really hoping to be able to come here and tell you there was a major audible difference, but in all honesty, it was so slight and could have been contributed to the double run/higher gauge.

You guys were right again!!! I love this site, and feel so gullable.

Thanks,

Gregg

OK, now you need to do the same test with generic 14ga and the Munster Cable. If you feel like it, comparing that with the AudioQuest will add to the experience. Judging by the article I linked to, the AudioQuest and generic wire should be a little better on the high frequencies, adding a bit of openness and air to the sound.

 

[greggp2]

where did you pick up the Romex cable? Home Depot?

 

[Alex2507]

I would love to hear your impressions of 10-12 ga solid core romex. It's all I use and have no plans to switch.

My toaster sounds great!
Electrifying highs make me feel like my head is on fire and my @$$ is catching.

 

[cl35m]

where did you pick up the Romex cable? Home Depot?

yes home depot or lowes or your hardware store of choice.

 

[cl35m]

My toaster sounds great!
Electrifying highs make me feel like my head is on fire and my @$$ is catching.

My tube toaster is warm and smooth

 

[markw]

I want to thank the anonymous poster who gave me a "blue" chicklet for this post.

Well, now is a pretty good time to try to see what's real and what's not. A lot of times our expectations do color what we perceive, and this carries over to medicine, too.

Now, may I ask what you found so offensive, misleading or incorrect here that would cause you feel this was warranted?

 

[lsiberian]

Also, I'm returning 2 Monster HDMI cables I purchased at Best Buy Magnolia for over $300 two weeks ago and ordering two high end HDMI cables from Blue Jeans tomorrow. I'll be saving over $260...

How long are your runs. If its 15ft or less go with the cheap HDMI cables from monoprice.com

You can always ask the BJC folks what they recommend. I imagine they are honest. The owner posts here from time to time.

 

[highfigh]

Now, may I ask what you found so offensive, misleading or incorrect here that would cause you feel this was warranted?

I didn't see the comment above the quote. For a second, I thought you were talking to yourself.

What is a blue chicklet for- to report a post?