Speaker Cable Hype ???

[greggp2]

Hey guys, be nice

Yes, I spent $500 on 2 speaker cables and thought I was doing well since they retail for $1,500. I could always sell them for what I paid on Audiogon, as others sell cables from Audioquest all day long there.

Fortunately, I do fairly well, and could afford them, but that doesn't mean I like throwing money away.

I am looking forward to doing another listening test though, because I clearly remember the cables sounding better than my Monster cables. They are quad twisted, so perhaps since there are 4 cables that the sound is traveling through, more material is being transmitted. I don't know, I just find it extremely hard to believe, and I'm not doubting your opinions, that all of these Audiophiles would be so easily tricked into marketing gimmicks.

I mean, can all of these guys that purchase Lexicon, Arcam, McIntosh, Classee, Rotel, etc really be so ignorant as to just be wasting money?

I'm not trying to start any arguments, perhaps a healthy debate, but please know that I take all of your advice to heart. I highly respect this site and it's reviews. Per a lot of your recommendations, I have ordered an Emotiva XPA-2 to drive my 802 speakers. The interconnects I ordered from BlueJeansCables. Per Gene's advice, I'm going to stick with my Yamaha 3900 as a Pre/Pro and to power my Center and Rears.

I am just finding it hard to believe that cable that sells for $35 could sound the same and be the same as cables that are hundreds or thousands of dollars.

If this is true, than I may want to start a cable company, although I believe in selling value and not hype.

The way I look at this is like comparing cars. I have 2 cars that are very different in price and luxury. They both are super quick and get me from point A to point B, but one of them gets far more looks than the other and is far more exotic and different. The cheaper of the two is respected by car enthusiasts, and at times I like driving it more than the expensive one.

But at the end of the day, they are not the same. The craftsmanship, materials used to build it, sound of the engine/exhaust and the way it drives is very different than the cheaper model vehicle I own. Perhaps the same holds true for cables. If not, why on Earth would people with money, that do this as a hobby, just throw that money away on cables? There has to be subtle differences at least. Maybe not major difference, but subtle differences that high end equipment and very trained ears can detect.

My ears may not be that good as to detect it. But just because people have or make good incomes, doesn't mean they like spending it frivolously. I know I don't...

 

[Alex2507]

I think comparing speaker wire to a fuel line is better than comparing it to a car. You can make the line out of gold. You can hone out the inside so that it is smooth. You can encrust the outside with diamonds. You can fry it and then freeze it. But when you compare it to stock on a dyno or on a track and find that you get the same results or that you can't identify which line is being used in DBT'ing then what?

The proof is in the pudding. Whatever that means.

 

[lsiberian]

Yes, I spent $500 on 2 speaker cables and thought I was doing well since they retail for $1,500. I could always sell them for what I paid on Audiogon, as others sell cables from Audioquest all day long there.

Fortunately, I do fairly well, and could afford them, but that doesn't mean I like throwing money away.

I am looking forward to doing another listening test though, because I clearly remember the cables sounding better than my Monster cables. They are quad twisted, so perhaps since there are 4 cables that the sound is traveling through, more material is being transmitted. I don't know, I just find it extremely hard to believe, and I'm not doubting your opinions, that all of these Audiophiles would be so easily tricked into marketing gimmicks.

I mean, can all of these guys that purchase Lexicon, Arcam, McIntosh, Classee, Rotel, etc really be so ignorant as to just be wasting money?

I'm not trying to start any arguments, perhaps a healthy debate, but please know that I take all of your advice to heart. I highly respect this site and it's reviews. Per a lot of your recommendations, I have ordered an Emotiva XPA-2 to drive my 802 speakers. The interconnects I ordered from BlueJeansCables. Per Gene's advice, I'm going to stick with my Yamaha 3900 as a Pre/Pro and to power my Center and Rears.

I am just finding it hard to believe that cable that sells for $35 could sound the same and be the same as cables that are hundreds or thousands of dollars.

If this is true, than I may want to start a cable company, although I believe in selling value and not hype.

The way I look at this is like comparing cars. I have 2 cars that are very different in price and luxury. They both are super quick and get me from point A to point B, but one of them gets far more looks than the other and is far more exotic and different. The cheaper of the two is respected by car enthusiasts, and at times I like driving it more than the expensive one.

But at the end of the day, they are not the same. The craftsmanship, materials used to build it, sound of the engine/exhaust and the way it drives is very different than the cheaper model vehicle I own. Perhaps the same holds true for cables. If not, why on Earth would people with money, that do this as a hobby, just throw that money away on cables? There has to be subtle differences at least. Maybe not major difference, but subtle differences that high end equipment and very trained ears can detect.

My ears may not be that good as to detect it. But just because people have or make good incomes, doesn't mean they like spending it frivolously. I know I don't...

Shirts are almost all made in Asia. Over in Asia you can get a van Husen shirt for like 5 US dollars in their version of walmart in the US they go for like 30 dollars. The only stuff that is really worth it's high cost are authentic silk items. Those are expensive even in Asia.

Copper is copper. If I where going to make expensive wire. I would probably make it as thin as possible while maintaining the current for 4 ohm loads up to 50 feet. That way it could be easily hidden.

The monster cable when sold at cost equals most of the other cables in price.

 

[greggp2]

Please understand that I don't consider Monster cable high end. I think that Monster wraps their cables with fancy shielded material, and it's the same copper as you can buy at Home Depot or elsewhere. I am referring to really high end stuff like Audioquest, Kimber, etc. It's not like Audioquest and Kimber just have one really high end cable. They have several different stages of them. If there were no difference, why would people purchase the really expensive cables over their basic cables? I'm sure people audition these in showrooms. Like I said earlier, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I'd like nothing more to notice little to no difference, sell my main and center Audioquest cables, purchase BlueJeanCables and pocket the difference.

Again, I will test it for myself, but from what everyone here is saying, I should hear no difference or little difference between the two and that was not my previous experience. I even had doubled up my cable runs in the past to allow more signal to pass through to the speakers. The Audioquest cables were still noticably better.

to be continued after my listening tests...

 

[highfigh]

Don't EVER use 18AWG speaker cable for high end audio. Follow the guidelines in this article:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/speaker-cable-gauge

If the speaker has an extremely low impedance, like some electrostats, the added resistance can keep the amp's protection from kicking in, but I'm not sure I want to walk on that knife edge. According to the article I linked, the Monster cable has more inductance than many others, which will naturally roll off the highs.

 

[highfigh]

the article is a general guideline. You should also go for better than the minimum recommendation in a way that Jennifer Aniston should always wear more flair than the minimum in the movie Office Space

Is there a conversion for the best wire gauge vs pieces of flair? If 37 pieces of flair is great, 41 must be better, right?

 

[highfigh]

"They are quad twisted, so perhaps since there are 4 cables that the sound is traveling through, more material is being transmitted. I don't know, I just find it extremely hard to believe, and I'm not doubting your opinions, that all of these Audiophiles would be so easily tricked into marketing gimmicks."

It's not that material is being transmitted, it's electrical resonances that occur because of voltage fluctuations at the input and if you have ever looked at a tone control circuit, adding capacitance and/or induction and maybe some resistance is how tone controls work- they send some of the signal to ground and the amount of capacitance, inductance and resistance determine how much.

"I mean, can all of these guys that purchase Lexicon, Arcam, McIntosh, Classee, Rotel, etc really be so ignorant as to just be wasting money?"

You don't need to be ignorant, in order to be convinced of something, especially when the sales presentation and conditions favor a particular outcome.

"I'm not trying to start any arguments, perhaps a healthy debate, but please know that I take all of your advice to heart. I highly respect this site and it's reviews. Per a lot of your recommendations, I have ordered an Emotiva XPA-2 to drive my 802 speakers. The interconnects I ordered from BlueJeansCables. Per Gene's advice, I'm going to stick with my Yamaha 3900 as a Pre/Pro and to power my Center and Rears."

This debate has been going on for decades as the date of the article in the link I posted attests. It's not going to end anytime soon, either. Some cables may sound better with certain electronics, because of little differences in design, too. If you use a cable with lots of inductance with and amp and speakers that are exceptionally bright sounding, it may sound great but if you use it with neutral sounding gear, it'll sound lifeless and dull.

"I am just finding it hard to believe that cable that sells for $35 could sound the same and be the same as cables that are hundreds or thousands of dollars."

If this wasn't happening, the debate would have died before, IMO.

Marketing sells things, engineering designs and tests things. I read a quote from an engineer, who said, "Test equipment measures that, for which it is designed." In that respect, it's like taking polls- they reflect what the pollster wants it to and because of that, along with the fact that many of the people who ooh and aah at the charts, graphs and pictures don't understand what they're seeing. During the late '70s and early '80s, stereo manufacturers had a specifications war and let me tell you that the people who came in spouting specs they had no inkling of was not a fun time. We had to explain to them that most of the ones they were led to believe meant the world, were really inaudible. Some believed us, others went off in a huff because they had read it in a magazine with all kinds of advertisements and couldn't accept that this is a conflict when objectivity is the goal. Asking about the slew rate of an amp, followed by questions about how many amps the receiver put out was a really good clue as to the customers' level of knowledge and while the store owner thought that educating these people was a waste of time (he was more of a get 'em in, take their money and get 'em out kind of guy), we didn't care what he thought and proved him wrong when these same people became really good, long-term customers. Some even became really good friends.

Bottom line, PT Barnum was right but nobody wants to admit that they fall into this category. As bad as the hype is for consumers, it's easily as bad for retailers- the same products have to be sold to the dealers before they'll carry the line and in order for them to be effective with those products, they have to really get behind them. When they are required to stock the goods, having money tied up in dead inventory is a good way to go under.

 

[greggp2]

You bring up some really valid points. Everyone has. I guess we won't solve this debate here and now. The only resolution for me is whether I can hear a difference between these cables and others out there. I want to bi-wire my speakers anyway, so perhaps I'll order 3 sets from BlueJeans and then do a test between the two.

I'm debating between the 10 gauge and the 14 gauge star quad so I can double up the runs to my highs on my speakers. Any recommendations which will be better?

I'm really excited to get my Emotiva Amp in. My speakers are very much under powered and I have them bi-amped with the Yamaha 3900. I am using the Monster cables to the top connectors right now and the Audioquest to the low and mid range...

 

[Djizasse]

really be so ignorant as to just be wasting money?

Audio is the only industry that has cables with mystical properties that seem to defy physics. This does not exist in any other industry.
I think one just needs to read the advertisements, they're filled with so many esoteric and inquantifiable properties that midway through the gospel you start to wander what are they talking about. At this point you accept it and become a believer.

In the end, people believe what they want to believe, if they're after some religious guidance they just need someone to tell them how much does it cost.

Audio placebos, do you really need them?

 

[john72953]

Let your ears be the judge and throw everything else out the window!

Yeah sure, some guy will come back and tell you about the "placebo" effect, but who in the end really cares.

It is what sounds good to you, so buy accordingly!

John

 

[ParadigmDawg]

The beauty of this sport (yes, it is a sport because it requires getting off the couch at times) is it is to be enjoyed by the guy who builds the system. I have made many upgrades along the way, some made a difference, some did not. I did not make my upgrades going in blind but I was curious by some as I also believe "the proof is in the pudding".

Klipsch Ref speakers to Paradigm 40's- Big difference and probably the best upgrade I have made to date.

Paradigm 40's to 100's- So, so upgrade but likely not worth the money considering I run a bad boy sub. I do tend to blow less speakers now so I probably need the headroom.

No sub to Servo15- Huge difference

Servo15 to DIY- Big difference but I need one more.

Yamaha 3800 to Denon 3808- Heck, I just use it as a pre/pro but the GUI upgrade in the 3808 made a lot of difference to me.

Cheap, Part Express 10 AWG speakerwire to BestDealCables Bi-Wire Speaker Cables- No difference what so ever but I love the way they look and will continue to use products from this company.

Rotel amp- Feel as there was a noticible difference going from an AVR to the Rotel. Felt like there was no difference going from a MPS to the Rotel. I think a pro amp from Yamaha or Behringer would work as well or better than the Rotel but I wanted a Rotel and I am very happy with it.

Anyway, do what makes you happy, it's not like it is going to hurt anything....

 

[highfigh]

You bring up some really valid points. Everyone has. I guess we won't solve this debate here and now. The only resolution for me is whether I can hear a difference between these cables and others out there. I want to bi-wire my speakers anyway, so perhaps I'll order 3 sets from BlueJeans and then do a test between the two.

I'm debating between the 10 gauge and the 14 gauge star quad so I can double up the runs to my highs on my speakers. Any recommendations which will be better?

I'm really excited to get my Emotiva Amp in. My speakers are very much under powered and I have them bi-amped with the Yamaha 3900. I am using the Monster cables to the top connectors right now and the Audioquest to the low and mid range...

One question I have is, have you ever wanted to actually measure some of these things for yourself? In the thread I started about the data in the Nelson Pass tests and since you previously said that you're doing OK financially, is it worth $100 to be able to not only measure speaker parameters, but also the IMPEDANCE and inductance in cables? The reason I typed in caps is that the Parts Express TW3 actually measures that, not just resistance. It also measures inductance.

I checked my speaker cables this afternoon and while I wasn't expecting greatness, it was in line with several of the expensive cables tested in the article. Unfortunately, as I mentioned in the other thread, the reason my speakers sound as good as they do is because of a collection of happy accidents. The graphs didn't look very good for impedance but the phase plot was really good.

 

[skers_54]

Just my 2 cents, but I feel that cheap, well-made speaker wire is perform nearly identically to more expensive stuff most of the time. The more expensive wire seems to have better shielding, so if you have a noisy environment or run it near power cords there may be an audible benefit. Monoprice wire is poorly shielded and noticed a difference when I moved it farther from my power cords (fairly obvious I know, but it doesn't get mentioned much in these types of threads). YMMV however.

 

[highfigh]

What I really got from the article is that because some cables have higher inductance than others, comparing one that has less will sound brighter than one that has more. This, of course, adds "openness" and "air" to the sound.

Some of the other tests would be harder to deplicate by those of us who don't have the test equipment, but with some of the free RTA software, sine, saw tooth and square waveforms are available to us, as well as pink and white noise. With other downloads, impulse noise is possible, which allows testing reverberation time (RT60) of the listening space. The one that has this ability also does waterfall plots and several others, like fast or slow sine wave sweeps.

 

[highfigh]

Just my 2 cents, but I feel that cheap, well-made speaker wire is perform nearly identically to more expensive stuff most of the time. The more expensive wire seems to have better shielding, so if you have a noisy environment or run it near power cords there may be an audible benefit. Monoprice wire is poorly shielded and noticed a difference when I moved it farther from my power cords (fairly obvious I know, but it doesn't get mentioned much in these types of threads). YMMV however.

Speaker wire seldom, if ever, has shielding. It has a protective jacket (not the monster cable cheap wire- that stuff sucks for running it over anything other than smooth, fuzzy bunnies). Some have a thicker jacket which, IMO, does more to make people think it's thicker than it really is. I re-terminated some speakers for a client and the other place used Monster Cable that has a 14ga pair and an 18ga pair. After seeing the plots in the article, I have to conclude that the second pair is to make up for the highs lost because of inductance. The O.D. was at least 1/2" but the wires themselves were half of that. There was no shielding at all, as usual. That cable was at least $7/foot at the time and I just can't see the value in that.

 

[lsiberian]

As always these discussions are fruitless IMO. even if there is a db drop form your speaker cables for 500 dollars you could buy a very nice EQ that could fix everything for you. An EQ would make a much bigger difference than any cable could ever.

Of course I had a high gauge monster cable and switched it with the 16 gauge's I have now. And there was no audible difference. And I run the mains and a big center off the long cables. So it's not because the main sound is on the short runs.

I think for in room runs going to high is far worse than too low. thicker wire is harder to hide, tuck and can be easier to trip on.

Safety and aesthetics should be considered with the wire too. 16 is a good balance of safety aesthetics and good enough for most in room runs. In wall is another story.

 

[skers_54]

Speaker wire seldom, if ever, has shielding. It has a protective jacket (not the monster cable cheap wire- that stuff sucks for running it over anything other than smooth, fuzzy bunnies). Some have a thicker jacket which, IMO, does more to make people think it's thicker than it really is. I re-terminated some speakers for a client and the other place used Monster Cable that has a 14ga pair and an 18ga pair. After seeing the plots in the article, I have to conclude that the second pair is to make up for the highs lost because of inductance. The O.D. was at least 1/2" but the wires themselves were half of that. There was no shielding at all, as usual. That cable was at least $7/foot at the time and I just can't see the value in that.

I've seen a couple of the wires claim to incorporate shielding (best deal cables and audioquest, for example). It really shouldn't be an issue unless the wire runs parallel to the power cords for a significant distance (as mine did), but that's an easy fix. However, the manufacturers need to add "features" to make their products justify the price.

 

[Duff man]

I am just finding it hard to believe that cable that sells for $35 could sound the same and be the same as cables that are hundreds or thousands of dollars.

Remember...just because they are SELLING the cables for hundreds or thousands, that doesn't mean that it is worth more than the cable that sells for $35. It simply means that they are able to convince some people that it must be better because it costs a lot.

 

[Djizasse]

I accept that some of these cables can make music sound better, due to coloration in some frequencies(or something like that).
But this is like buying an expensive EQs with fixed params. This reminds me of "audiophile amplifiers" and the "valve sound".

IMHO, it seems that these buyers are trying to build a system that sounds as close to perfection (as perceived by them) as possible. If a cable can take that last step to get the sound they're after I can understand why they pay so much for them. While there could be better, versatile and cheaper ways to get there, to each it's own. The downside to this is that others become influenced and just buy these cables for the wrong reasons.

 

[jostenmeat]

Man, some of you guys got me guessing on my 16 gauge. It was simply the thickest they had when I was in home depot.

Maybe I'll buy some BJ 12 gauge for kicks. Im thinking runs of 15-30 ft, speakers that do drop to 4 ohms or less.

I just don't like spending good money on speaker wire. But maybe I need to step up on the gauge.

Please feel free to talk me out of it! I thought the last time I perused roger russell's chart, that I'd be fine, more or less . . .

ciao