How do I get my 6 7" woofers moving?

[PENG]

haha well from the subs i tried that day, those two were by far the best. I tried the velodyne dls-5000r, the velodyne dls-4000r, the velodyne dls-3500r, the polk audio dsw proo 5000, the polk audio dsw 4000 and the monster subwoofers stood out like a sore thumb.

i know you cant really explain sound over writing but do you think the svs would have the sound of the monster subwoofer?

I listened to quite a few subs before I bought my PC Ultra. I think SVS subs are among the best but if (and only if)TLS is right about the RTi12 lacking in upper bass, those big SVS won't help you. I know my PC Ultra doesn't do well above 100 Hz. He is not always right though.....hahaha

 

[captiankirk28]

I'm sorry I guess that wasn't clear. I shouldn't have said I am trying to get them moving. What I am trying to achieve is more punch in my system while keeping the volume at listening levels. The RTi12's are amazing speakers and I've heard that if you give them enough power, you don't need a subwoofer. In the future I might experiment with a power amp to see what kind of results I will get, but does this mean that the overall volume will be greater or will it sound much bigger because there is more power to the speakers? If you have 300 watts going to each speaker, does it mean that only at high volumes will you take advantage of the 300 watts per side or will it sound just as good at lower volumes?


To everyone: I am not trying to get more volume. The receiver I have already is loud enough, however I want the 6 7" woofers to actually sound like woofers without having to crank it up to extreme levels.

At low volumes it will be no diff. than what you have, you would have to turn it way up to get what you are looking for, but a sub from SVS or HSU will put you where you wanna be.

 

[TLS Guy]

At low volumes it will be no diff. than what you have, you would have to turn it way up to get what you are looking for, but a sub from SVS or HSU will put you where you wanna be.

If you took the time to read this thread, you would see that your solution will not solve the Guitatplyrstevo's problem, it gets him where he does not "wanna be."

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

I don't understand what all you guys are saying. TLS Guy, you said the all decent subs (like hsu and svs im assuming) are going to act the the velodyne did. If that is the case then I don't understand how you guys think that is high quality sound. When I heard the velodyne subs, whenever the bass drum was kicking, there was an over whelming sound of *** which over powered the rest of the speakers. The bass was flabby and very out of control and i did not like it at all.

Also I don't understand what you said by "the Monster's were impressing you exactly because they were not good subs". I don't see how that makes sense. If you were to blind fold me and play music from the velodyne and the monster, I would still go after the monster. Im sure that monster is over pricing those subwoofers a lot, and thats why I ask you guys to give me an alternative, but in my opinion the smoothness of the bass blew the velodyne away.

TLS guy, are you a fan of the dls series from velodyne or are they just an ok subwoofer company? Honestly in my opinion those subwoofers were unrealistic and isnt that what we all are going for? Doesn't hi-fi mean accurate reproduction exactly how they were created? If that is correct, the monster had a more accurate reproduction of music than the velodyne did.

Just some thoughts. What are all yours?

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't understand what all you guys are saying. TLS Guy, you said the all decent subs (like hsu and svs im assuming) are going to act the the velodyne did. If that is the case then I don't understand how you guys think that is high quality sound. When I heard the velodyne subs, whenever the bass drum was kicking, there was an over whelming sound of *** which over powered the rest of the speakers. The bass was flabby and very out of control and i did not like it at all.

Also I don't understand what you said by "the Monster's were impressing you exactly because they were not good subs". I don't see how that makes sense. If you were to blind fold me and play music from the velodyne and the monster, I would still go after the monster. Im sure that monster is over pricing those subwoofers a lot, and thats why I ask you guys to give me an alternative, but in my opinion the smoothness of the bass blew the velodyne away.

TLS guy, are you a fan of the dls series from velodyne or are they just an ok subwoofer company? Honestly in my opinion those subwoofers were unrealistic and isnt that what we all are going for? Doesn't hi-fi mean accurate reproduction exactly how they were created? If that is correct, the monster had a more accurate reproduction of music than the velodyne did.

Just some thoughts. What are all yours?

Actually I'm not a fan of any subwoofer. Look at my rig and you won't see one.

Now good subs are deigned to splice to speakers and extend their range below 60 to 80 Hz. They are not designed to plug a whole created by someone designing a speaker with a passive crossover at 120 Hz. In fact if you look on the Monster site, they variously describe those units as subs and bass modules. Now subs should not be designed to fill in at 120 Hz. I don't know what more I can do to make you understand this. So all good subs will do what you don't want. But paradoxically a device operating out of band, and I have to assume a poor response in the sub band, happens to plug the whole in the response of the speakers you are using them with. I have to say that those subs would almost certainly sound awful coupled with competently designed speakers.

Now I know exactly what sort of sound you are after. I have built and designed speaker systems for guitar players like yourself previously.

Back in the seventies JBL and Altec Lansing, made 15 inch drivers that when crossed over to suitable HF units, at around 400 to 500 Hz, with passive or preferably electronic crossover, would produce just the sound you want.

In the town I lived almost 40 years ago, I built a huge system in a big hall. It had 15 inch JBLs in enormous back loaded horns, with 33 inch horn mouths. These were built into the side of the stage. The tops were 8 high quality units as a line source with aperiodic damping. The stage monitors were Altec Lansing 15 inch coaxials reflex loaded screened off from the mains.

The sound covered the whole hall evenly. The live bands loved the sound, and asked me to build speakers for home use, not instrument speakers.

They were built around the 15 inch Altec Lansing 811-A. The design was a low Qt sealed design. I just parted out the last cabinets recently, for lack of space. The Altecs will be for sale on eBay when I get round to it, and I bet a lot of experienced builders will be after them like flies to the Honey pot. I still have the top heads, as they don't take much space. Those speakers produced just the sound people like yourself are after.

 

[bandphan]

If that is correct, the monster had a more accurate reproduction of music than the velodyne did.

Just some thoughts. What are all yours?

accurate in what terms? Hows is anything electronic accurate in reproduction ? Listen to what is being said. Your preference is not for accurate, but a certian frequency. Im bowing out, get a dsp and amp, they play around, good luck

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

ok so TSL Guy, you seem to be really know the sound I am after. Now do you think there is hope in acheiving the sound I am going after? Or will I be held back as long as I have the RTI12's?

Also, if you think I will be held back because of the RTi12's, what speakers do you recommend?

Arn't RTi12's some of the higher end speakers?

 

[TLS Guy]

ok so TSL Guy, you seem to be really know the sound I am after. Now do you think there is hope in acheiving the sound I am going after? Or will I be held back as long as I have the RTI12's?

Also, if you think I will be held back because of the RTi12's, what speakers do you recommend?

Arn't RTi12's some of the higher end speakers?

The answer to your question is yes. I will have to think about it. Usually I'm reluctant to recommend speakers. You need to do some listening. You need to understand specs.

As a first suggestion the Velodyne DD15 sub http://www.velodyne.com/products/specs/DigitalDrive.html coupled with this Dynaudio speaker, the focus 140 http://www.dynaudio.com/eng/systems/lines/focus/focus140.php

These speakers will require that you get an amp with good current reserve stable driving four ohm loads. I think it would give you what you are looking for. I would crossover at 60 or 80 Hz.

The other alternative is a DIY project, these days. Those 70 speakers from JBL and Altec with 15 inch woofers have just about vanished.

 

[dorokusai]

TLS Guy - I'll look at what the crossover slopes are tomorrow but I'm not aware of them being crossed at 120hz. I'm not positive and will check on that issue. No, we do not "embellish" any specifications. Everything is rated anechoic and just like the rest of the world of frustrating monkey coffin loudspeakers.

Guitar - I'm not sure if I can ever figure out what you're trying to achieve, no offense. What's your room size? Do you use room treatments? I apologize if I missed this information thru the thread but I didn't notice it.

The speaker is 90db efficient so volume level isn't an issue, as stated previously. You're looking for better performance in a range that definitly suits your personal, musical preference. Heck, who isn't looking for that?

You mentioned that subwoofers didn't work for you, so that discounts a low level issue, since you appear to have demo'd multiple subwoofers. The RTi12 is not an SVS ground pounder but isn't lacking in overall bass response. The TYPE of bass is typical Polk IMO, punchy and musical. Is there better? Absolutely, or this industry wouldn't exist.

In regards to the Onkyo AVR being capable to drive the loudspeakers....sure, it's capable of doing that job well. No pre-outs makes anything extra in this case, impossible.

If you demo'd all this other gear, why not demo a better AVR? I'm getting into the issue late, much thanks to TLS and hopefully between the collective body here, you'll get you squared away.

Mark
Polk Audio CS

 

[wire]

ok so TSL Guy, you seem to be really know the sound I am after. Now do you think there is hope in acheiving the sound I am going after? Or will I be held back as long as I have the RTI12's?

Also, if you think I will be held back because of the RTi12's, what speakers do you recommend?

Arn't RTi12's some of the higher end speakers?

How about some Polk SDA's , SRS or some big speaker like that , those Mid drivers when powered up properly really move . You will need something more than a Mid line receiver to power them . I think also you will not need a Sub for most of the SDA series speakers , but again you will need some extra funds to power them .
I have the low end SDA speakers (2b's) and would not reccomend anything less than 250 x 2 power amp , I run a Bryston 4b with mine and a Carver TFM 35 for a back up .

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS Guy - I'll look at what the crossover slopes are tomorrow but I'm not aware of them being crossed at 120hz. I'm not positive and will check on that issue. No, we do not "embellish" any specifications. Everything is rated anechoic and just like the rest of the world of frustrating monkey coffin loudspeakers.

Guitar - I'm not sure if I can ever figure out what you're trying to achieve, no offense. What's your room size? Do you use room treatments? I apologize if I missed this information thru the thread but I didn't notice it.

The speaker is 90db efficient so volume level isn't an issue, as stated previously. You're looking for better performance in a range that definitly suits your personal, musical preference. Heck, who isn't looking for that?

You mentioned that subwoofers didn't work for you, so that discounts a low level issue, since you appear to have demo'd multiple subwoofers. The RTi12 isn't an SVS ground pounder but isn't lacking in bass. The TYPE of bass is typical Polk IMO, punchy and musical. Is there better? Absolutely, or this industry wouldn't exist.

In regards to the Onkyo AVR being capable to drive the loudspeakers....sure, it's capable of doing that job well. No pre-outs makes anything extra in this case impossible.

If you demo'd all this other gear, why not demo a better AVR? I'm getting into the issue late, much thanks to TLS and hopefully between the collective body here, you'll get you squared away.

Mark
Polk Audio CS

Dorokusai. I know you are a Polk rep, but here is the info from the Polk website.

Overall Frequency Response 18Hz-27kHz
Lower -3dB Limit 30Hz
Upper -3dB Limit 26kHz
Nominal Impedance 8 ohms
Recommended Amplifier Power 50-500 w/channel
Efficiency 90 dB
Crossover
(mid-high array) 1.8kHz, 12dB/octave low and high pass. 120Hz 12dB/octave high pass
Crossover
(subwoofer) 120Hz, 12dB/octave low pass
Inputs Dual (bi-amp) gold plated 5-way binding posts

So clearly there is a passive crossover at 120 Hz. I'm sorry, but that's a mess. It is too low a frequency to get satisfactory performance from passive components. If you want the crossover at that point, then the three LF units need to be actively powered.

 

[TLS Guy]

How about some Polk SDA's , SRS or some big speaker like that , those Mid drivers when powered up properly really move . You will need something more than a Mid line receiver to power them . I think also you will not need a Sub for most of the SDA series speakers , but again you will need some extra funds to power them .
I have the low end SDA speakers (2b's) and would not reccomend anything less than 250 x 2 power amp , I run a Bryston 4b with mine and a Carver TFM 35 for a back up .

That might be a solution. However I have found that guitar players really favor a tight articulate bass. They detest "carry over." They really favor low total Qt systems.

I know the Dynaudio line quite well. The drivers produce a tight articulate bass in a small sealed enclosure. If that is accurately crossed over to a good sealed sub, with a 12 or 15 inch driver, I think that would get the sound he wants. That would be closest to the systems from Altec Lansing in the 70s that were so popular for this type of program. Really the system I outlined to him would be a very potent system. Those Dynaudio drivers have 2.5 inch voice coils and have large power handling with minimal thermal compression.

I'm strongly advising him to stay away from ported enclosures given his application. This system will also do fine job on all program sources, and look elegant. If crossed over as I outlined, spl will be more than adequate, unless the room is huge.

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

That might be a solution. However I have found that guitar players really favor a tight articulate bass. They detest "carry over." They really favor low total Qt systems.

I know the Dynaudio line quite well. The drivers produce a tight articulate bass in a small sealed enclosure. If that is accurately crossed over to a good sealed sub, with a 12 or 15 inch driver, I think that would get the sound he wants. That would be closest to the systems from Altec Lansing in the 70s that were so popular for this type of program. Really the system I outlined to him would be a very potent system. Those Dynaudio drivers have 2.5 inch voice coils and have large power handling with minimal thermal compression.

I'm strongly advising him to stay away from ported enclosures given his application. This system will also do fine job on all program sources, and look elegant. If crossed over as I outlined, spl will be more than adequate, unless the room is huge.

So the RTi12's are pretty much useless for me if i want to get the sound that i am trying to get?

I was looking at the boston acoustics home theater in a box (Boston Acoustic MCS 130) and it sounded really even. the satellite speakers could probably be a little more clearer but the over all sound was very smooth and flat sounding. I noticed that any time i hear a system that i like, i noticed that the speakers itself are very sensitive. when i mean sensitive, i mean you can actually see the speakers moving back and forth even at low volumes. in the boston acoustics system, even the satellite speakers are moving back and forth and in my opinion, that is why the system sounds even as a whole simply because the small speakers are moving back and forth to create the upper frequencies and the sub is moving back at forth to create the lower frequencies and they are all working together.

Now i am bringing up the question about power again simply because there are a total of 6 speakers in each RTi12 tower. Due to that, I am guessing i need more power to my RTi12's to get the speakers to be "sensitive" because im not sure if 80 watts per channel is cutting it for each tower. To my knowledge, 80 watts is not going to be enough to produce lower frequencies and always need a lot more power.

So again, do you guys think that a can get the 6 7" woofers moving (more sensitive or in other words moving back and forth) easier if i supplied them with more power?

Sorry if im kind of ranting on and on. I just got off work and am very tired and cant think too clearly right now.

 

[bandphan]

When you see a loudspeaker cone moving violently, that generally means wasted effort and a driver decoupled. If a driver is properly loaded it moves very little. In a ported enclosure, TL and especially a horn the pressure is so high behind the speaker it barely moves at all. The output comes from the ports or horn mouth. That is where the low frequency sound waves are emanating from.
Below tuning the cone travel increases, but it is wasted effort and not producing sound.

So the RTi12's are pretty much useless for me if i want to get the sound that i am trying to get?

I was looking at the boston acoustics home theater in a box (Boston Acoustic MCS 130) and it sounded really even. the satellite speakers could probably be a little more clearer but the over all sound was very smooth and flat sounding. I noticed that any time i hear a system that i like, i noticed that the speakers itself are very sensitive. when i mean sensitive, i mean you can actually see the speakers moving back and forth even at low volumes. in the boston acoustics system, even the satellite speakers are moving back and forth and in my opinion, that is why the system sounds even as a whole simply because the small speakers are moving back and forth to create the upper frequencies and the sub is moving back at forth to create the lower frequencies and they are all working together.

Now i am bringing up the question about power again simply because there are a total of 6 speakers in each RTi12 tower. Due to that, I am guessing i need more power to my RTi12's to get the speakers to be "sensitive" because im not sure if 80 watts per channel is cutting it for each tower. To my knowledge, 80 watts is not going to be enough to produce lower frequencies and always need a lot more power.

So again, do you guys think that a can get the 6 7" woofers moving (more sensitive or in other words moving back and forth) easier if i supplied them with more power?
.

Why does this mean a hill of beans? Re read this thread please for the love of god

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

Why does this mean a hill of beans? Re read this thread please for the love of god

Ok I understand that, but how will it produce sound if it moves very little? I'm not saying it has to move violently, just were if you look closely you can see the speaker moving. I cant see the woofers on my RTi12 move even a little if I am upclose. I can only feel the vibration if i put my hand on the cone, but other than that, they look like they dont even do anything.

To my knowledge, bigger cones mean lower frequencies, correct? Now from my knowledge from music gear, bass amps normally have a lot more watts than guitar amps simply because bass amps have much lower frequencies and require about 800 watts of power to pair up with a 100 watt guitar amp. All you guys say that my mid frequencies are the problem in my setup. My mid frequencies are coming from my 6 7" woofers in the tower. Maybe, just maybe, if i supply the tower with more power, the woofers will have a much easier time bringing out the lower frequencies because it has enough power to produce the lower frequencies. Exactly why many 8" woofers are self powered and have much more bass than the RTi 12's.

For example: the velodyne dls-3500 is an 8" woofer with 160 watts of continuous power. That woofer size isnt much bigger than just one of the woofers in my tower. In fact, the surface area of 6 7" woofers is far greater than of just one 8" woofer. Why does the 8" woofer produce more bass? From my understanding, its because of there is more power to produce the lower frequencies. You can actually see the 8" velodyne speaker moving back and forth slightly and when there is bass like from a bass drum, you can see the speaker thrust forward to produce the quick bass.

 

[Sheep]

they will sound exactly the same.

oh, my towers have dual 8's with 360watts behind them ... no bass from towers will beat a dedicated subwoofer (even if it isn't an SVS or HSU)

most you can do is have an EQ boost at around 100hz (where most bass boosts are located)

I just wanted to point out that most Bass boosts are shelving filters, that start at 100Hz, and go all the way down to where ever the amp cuts off the sound.

SheepStar

 

[bandphan]

Ok I understand that, but how will it produce sound if it moves very little? I'm not saying it has to move violently, just were if you look closely you can see the speaker moving. I cant see the woofers on my RTi12 move even a little if I am upclose. I can only feel the vibration if i put my hand on the cone, but other than that, they look like they dont even do anything.

To my knowledge, bigger cones mean lower frequencies, correct? Now from my knowledge from music gear, bass amps normally have a lot more watts than guitar amps simply because bass amps have much lower frequencies and require about 800 watts of power to pair up with a 100 watt guitar amp. All you guys say that my mid frequencies are the problem in my setup. My mid frequencies are coming from my 6 7" woofers in the tower. Maybe, just maybe, if i supply the tower with more power, the woofers will have a much easier time bringing out the lower frequencies because it has enough power to produce the lower frequencies. Exactly why many 8" woofers are self powered and have much more bass than the RTi 12's.

For example: the velodyne dls-3500 is an 8" woofer with 160 watts of continuous power. That woofer size isnt much bigger than just one of the woofers in my tower. In fact, the surface area of 6 7" woofers is far greater than of just one 8" woofer. Why does the 8" woofer produce more bass? From my understanding, its because of there is more power to produce the lower frequencies. You can actually see the 8" velodyne speaker moving back and forth slightly and when there is bass like from a bass drum, you can see the speaker thrust forward to produce the quick bass.

Tuning of the encloser and woofer are different. Subs are designed differently the speakers. Have you looked a fr graph of both? In a well designed tl speaker(like tls's) system they can play down to lower frequencies and have the umph your talking about. The dlsr3500 uses 160w of power, with dynamic power to 350w, in a cabniet tuned lower than your polks. Adding more power isnt going to increase the f3 of your speakers

 

[TLS Guy]

So the RTi12's are pretty much useless for me if i want to get the sound that i am trying to get?

I was looking at the boston acoustics home theater in a box (Boston Acoustic MCS 130) and it sounded really even. the satellite speakers could probably be a little more clearer but the over all sound was very smooth and flat sounding. I noticed that any time i hear a system that i like, i noticed that the speakers itself are very sensitive. when i mean sensitive, i mean you can actually see the speakers moving back and forth even at low volumes. in the boston acoustics system, even the satellite speakers are moving back and forth and in my opinion, that is why the system sounds even as a whole simply because the small speakers are moving back and forth to create the upper frequencies and the sub is moving back at forth to create the lower frequencies and they are all working together.

Now i am bringing up the question about power again simply because there are a total of 6 speakers in each RTi12 tower. Due to that, I am guessing i need more power to my RTi12's to get the speakers to be "sensitive" because im not sure if 80 watts per channel is cutting it for each tower. To my knowledge, 80 watts is not going to be enough to produce lower frequencies and always need a lot more power.

So again, do you guys think that a can get the 6 7" woofers moving (more sensitive or in other words moving back and forth) easier if i supplied them with more power?

Sorry if im kind of ranting on and on. I just got off work and am very tired and cant think too clearly right now.

Honestly you are beyond help. You have no idea how a speaker works, and your concocted notions about the production of sound are wrong more often than by chance.

Your speakers don't lack deep bass. Their cut off is 26 Hz, the 3db point. A lot of subs don't go down that low, nor do the guitars you are so fond of. Your problem is the upper bass.

The size of a speaker has nothing to do with low bass production per se. Nowhere in the formulas for modeling the F3 does size enter into it. However a heavier cone will tend to a lower free air resonance, which does impact F3.

Now moving speaker cones has nothing to do with speaker sensitivity at all. As I told you moving speaker cones is wasted effort in tuned systems. On your current system the deep bass is radiated from the port. The pressure is so high in the enclosure, the cones don't move much. For Heaven's sake look at the attachment I sent you earlier, and look at the relationship of cone displacement and spl with frequency ans see what I mean.

No, I don't think you will get that snappy yet full guitar sound you are looking for from your speakers. Adding power will not help AT ALL. It has NOTHING to do with it.

Now before posting any more about this, either do some intelligent reading, or take the advice you have sought. But please stop babbling on with your notions of how you think things work, that have no basis in reality or science.

I think I have helped you all I can.

 

[zhimbo]

So again, do you guys think that a can get the 6 7" woofers moving (more sensitive or in other words moving back and forth) easier if i supplied them with more power?

Please note: If you're wondering why people are getting exasperated with you, this question is pretty much your first post in this thread, pages and pages ago. You've come full circle.

If you want an answer to this question, merely start at the beginning of this thread.

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

Never mind. I still don't understand and I doubt I ever will. I'll just drop it.