How do I get my 6 7" woofers moving?

[TLS Guy]

Actually I have tested it myself with a sine wave program and the bass actually drops in volume at around 60hz. I set the crossover on my receiver at 60hz so the subwoofer will continue what the RTi12's cannot produce. I understand what you are saying though but is it possible to just add a powered crossover and amps to a tower?

By the way, how did you know I am a musician?

Something is wrong here. Your speakers should not be tapering at 60 Hz, that is a full octave above their published F3 point. So you should have decent output down to 30 Hz. A good bookshelf speaker will do better than that and most as well.

The first thing because of your admitted inexperience is that you have an error in your set up. Put your rig in 2 channel stereo mode, and just select left and right speakers, no sub, no center and no surrounds.

Now play your tones ans see where the taper is. If it is still as you say, then there is either something wrong with you receiver or speakers. Most likely the receiver, as you would not get two bad speakers at once.

If the speakers do play to 30 Hz, which is the point you should notice reduction in output. By the way make sure you use warble tones, otherwise you will be confused with room effects. Then set your left front and rights to large and start crossing over the sub at 60 Hz. That will bring in the sub an octave above the F3 of your mains.

It may be the Polk specs are embellished but I would hope not.

There are other members with these speakers, may be they could see where they notice the LF tapers on a test CD.

Things are just not as they should be, by the sound of it. But I want to make sure you don't have your speakers set to small and the receiver crossover cutting them off at 60Hz.

I think some forum members would shout "Off to the nursing home" again, to this retired physician, if I could not deduce you were a musician from "Guitarplyrstevo!"

 

[TLS Guy]

I should have answered your question about active biamping. Here is my reply to that.

Lets find out the results of what I recommended, before going to other options. The problem with converting to active crossover is that the mid speakers are fed from a bandpass filter which interacts with the woofers. So the crossover would have to be removed, a passive crossover designed for the mid/HF hand off, and then you would need a 12 db per octave electronic crossover at 120 Hz. You of course would need two amps. Before doing that you would need to know the LF response of the speakers was worth it.

If you play a tone around 30 to 40 Hz at reasonable volume, you should have enough air going in and out of the port to blow out a match or lighter. If it will not blow it out at that frequency, see at what frequency the port output is maximal. That will be a good guide to what is going on, and give a good idea of the tuning frequency. I would expect really good output between 25 and 40 Hz, if the Polk specs are accurate. If you can not show that you reach the box tuning frequency, do you have another amp to test a speaker with?

The other thing that occurs to me, is to ask about your source. Have you played a CD from a CD player? A lot of sound cards have poor audio performance. I would not trust an internal sound card to evaluate a speaker. I always use a pro external device for computer sourced material.

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

Well I mean the two RTi12's alone go to 30hz, no problem. When I open my sine wave program, its very flat sounding up until 60hz. Once it gets to 55hz or 50hz it decreases in volume. 50hz to about 35hz or 30hz it will be very flat sounding but just softer than 60hz. Then sound just diminishes below 30hz.

I hate how my system doesn't have a solid bass line. When I listen to a good rock or blues song and the bassist is playing a fatty bass line, it sucks that I only hear the low boomy notes as they should be heard and the upper mid bass isn't as powerful. There are some $300 home theater in a box systems at my job where the subwoofer will play the deep notes and the upper bass all within one speaker and it will sound very flat and even and I believe that my Klipsch is somewhat holding me back. The response is very slow and the overall sound is very very boomy. I am afraid that the SVS PB12-NSD will be boomy in the same way, just louder. I've always been skeptical about ported subwoofers because they always tend to be very boomy sounding on certain frequencies. The upper bass is always less powerful and one frequency like 60hz is incredibly louder than the rest and ruins the overall sound. My friends dad has a sealed $1000 Energy subwoofer and that has to be the best subwoofer I have ever heard. Deep and powerful sustains on both high and low bass and not one note is louder than the other. I wish there was a way I could audition more of the high end audio you guys talk about and that I see on the internet like SVS.

 

[TLS Guy]

Well I mean the two RTi12's alone go to 30hz, no problem. When I open my sine wave program, its very flat sounding up until 60hz. Once it gets to 55hz or 50hz it decreases in volume. 50hz to about 35hz or 30hz it will be very flat sounding but just softer than 60hz. Then sound just diminishes below 30hz.

I hate how my system doesn't have a solid bass line. When I listen to a good rock or blues song and the bassist is playing a fatty bass line, it sucks that I only hear the low boomy notes as they should be heard and the upper mid bass isn't as powerful. There are some $300 home theater in a box systems at my job where the subwoofer will play the deep notes and the upper bass all within one speaker and it will sound very flat and even and I believe that my Klipsch is somewhat holding me back. The response is very slow and the overall sound is very very boomy. I am afraid that the SVS PB12-NSD will be boomy in the same way, just louder. I've always been skeptical about ported subwoofers because they always tend to be very boomy sounding on certain frequencies. The upper bass is always less powerful and one frequency like 60hz is incredibly louder than the rest and ruins the overall sound. My friends dad has a sealed $1000 Energy subwoofer and that has to be the best subwoofer I have ever heard. Deep and powerful sustains on both high and low bass and not one note is louder than the other. I wish there was a way I could audition more of the high end audio you guys talk about and that I see on the internet like SVS.

Obviously you are not happy. You have confirmed that the cut off of your speakers is 30 Hz, as specified. However I think you have now correctly identified the problem with your speakers as being in the upper bass as I predicted.

Now generally you do not bring a sub in higher than 100 Hz, and usually not above 80 Hz. This is to prevent localization. From what you describe in this post I very much doubt you will get the sound you are after by adding a sub no matter how good. I think you need to find a buyer for you Rti 12 speakers.

I am giving three links you might find helpful.

http://www.dak.com/reviews/Tutorial_frequencies.cfm

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/music/guitar/guitarintro.html

http://www.alexandermagazine.com/recordingeq/eq/req0104/bass.htm

I'm sorry but with what I have found out about your speakers I doubt they will ever satisfy you. From the design I can just imagine the mess they make of the sound region you are really interested in.

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

I think it is possible because I have heard $300 home theater in a box systems produce bass like this. For example: I was listening to a Ray Charles CD at work on the Sony DAV-HDX265 and all of the vocals, piano and guitar were coming out of the sattelite speakers and the drum and bass were smooth yet punchy. All of the bass notes were even, maybe not as deep as they could be, but as if a bassist were playing it out of his bass amplifier. I do think it is possible but I think I just need to find a subwoofer that will handle bass like that with ease.

So what do YOU suggest I do? You say I probably won't be satisfied with the sound and I should probably sell the RTi12's and get what?

Also I have heard studio monitors by M-Audio Studiophile BX8a that do this very well and if you add a 10" subwoofer by them, it will do it even better so I do believe it is possible because we are talking about high end audio.

Another system that does this very well is the Denon DHT588A. That subwoofer is a very solid subwoofer with very smooth and punchy bass. I was blown away with the smoothness with the subwoofer and how even every note was.

 

[bandphan]

id spend your money a lil better than a htb get a pair of acsend's and 2 mwf15 subs an eq a beringer amp intergrate with your current rig(minus the polks) and your good to go

 

[TLS Guy]

I think it is possible because I have heard $300 home theater in a box systems produce bass like this. For example: I was listening to a Ray Charles CD at work on the Sony DAV-HDX265 and all of the vocals, piano and guitar were coming out of the sattelite speakers and the drum and bass were smooth yet punchy. All of the bass notes were even, maybe not as deep as they could be, but as if a bassist were playing it out of his bass amplifier. I do think it is possible but I think I just need to find a subwoofer that will handle bass like that with ease.

So what do YOU suggest I do? You say I probably won't be satisfied with the sound and I should probably sell the RTi12's and get what?



Also I have heard studio monitors by M-Audio Studiophile BX8a that do this very well and if you add a 10" subwoofer by them, it will do it even better so I do believe it is possible because we are talking about high end audio.

Another system that does this very well is the Denon DHT588A. That subwoofer is a very solid subwoofer with very smooth and punchy bass. I was blown away with the smoothness with the subwoofer and how even every note was.

If your speakers can't beat an HT in a box those speakers have trouble. I have found with guitar players that they prefer lower total Qt sealed systems, that have tighter more punchy bass. Is that what you are after?

I think you need to audition some speakers before a purchase. What is your budget, and what speakers are available in your area to audition?

Unfortunately there are a lot fewer systems like that now than their used to be.

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

id spend your money a lil better than a htb get a pair of acsend's and 2 mwf15 subs an eq a beringer amp intergrate with your current rig(minus the polks) and your good to go

Haha I'm not considering a htib system, I'm just saying that the bass line is stronger than what I have now and I am running two Polk RTi12's and a Klipsch Sub-10 coming from an Onkyo 574.

Are you suggesting I sell the RTi12's for a pair of "acsend's"? What is that? I couldn't find anything on google. Please provide links for both the "acsend" and "mwf15".

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

If your speakers can't beat an HT in a box those speakers have trouble. I have found with guitar players that they prefer lower total Qt sealed systems, that have tighter more punchy bass. Is that what you are after?

I think you need to audition some speakers before a purchase. What is your budget, and what speakers are available in your area to audition?

Unfortunately there are a lot fewer systems like that now than their used to be.

Well yes I am after tighter more punchier bass but aren't we all? I would assume none of us would actually want boomy and flabby bass.

Vocabulary: What is "Qt"?

Now when you say audition speakers, are you also suggesting I sell my RTi12's for another pair of speakers? Don't get me wrong, I love the RTi12's I just think my system is lacking in bass. I am hoping that a subwoofer will fix this problem but now I am questioning on getting a sealed or ported subwoofer. I have read that ported subwoofers are ideal these days because it gives the listener more of a connection with the sound since the woofer is taking the air exposed in the room however I am terrified that because of this, there will be certain frequencies that will resonate within the enclosure of the woofer and produce boomy sound.

As I have mentioned before, my friends dad has a $1000 sealed Energy subwoofer that has been the best subwoofer I have ever heard in my life (pretty bold statement but I was absolutely blown away with its power and smoothness). Due to that, I am convinced that with a proper subwoofer, I too can achieve the sound I am looking for.

I do not understand why you guys are telling me to sell my RTi12's; yes I have complained that it doesn't produce the bass I was expecting, however isn't a subwoofer designed to continue the frequencies that the other speakers cannont produce?

I feel like I am contridicting myself from my original post, however I am convinced that the reason why I am not getting the sound I want is due to my crappy Klipsch Synergy Sub-10.

What are your thoughts?

 

[mike c]

one step at a time. sub first. speakers later (if ever).

if you like how sealed subs sound ... why not go sealed again?

there are sealed subs from Velodyne, SVS, Epik that are pretty affordable.

i'm thinking you're putting too much thought to the:

I have read that ported subwoofers are ideal these days because it gives the listener more of a connection with the sound since the woofer is taking the air exposed in the room however I am terrified that because of this, there will be certain frequencies that will resonate within the enclosure of the woofer and produce boomy sound.

what is your budget for a subwoofer?

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

one step at a time. sub first. speakers later (if ever).

if you like how sealed subs sound ... why not go sealed again?

there are sealed subs from Velodyne, SVS, Epik that are pretty affordable.

i'm thinking you're putting too much thought to the:



what is your budget for a subwoofer?

Well I only say I liked how sealed subs sound because the only high end subwoofer I have ever heard was a sealed sub. All the other "high end" ported subwoofers that I have heard is what they carry at my job (Fry's Electronics).At my job, our top of the line subwoofers are the Velodyne DLS-5000R, the Polk Audio DSW MicroPRO 4000 and probably our absolute top of the line would have to be the Polk Audio PSW1000. I really do not consider the Velodyne DLS-5000R and the Polk Audio DSW MicroPRO 4000 to be some of the high end subwoofers for the money. Judging based on the only couple times I've heard the PSW1000, it is a powerful subwoofer, but nothing like the Energy es-12xl woofer my friends dad owns.

Have any of you had any experience with ported subs being boomy and not flat sounding? I am trying to emulate what a bass guitar would sound like through it's bass amp.

 

[bandphan]

go back to the idea of a flat responce speaker, stereo subs, amp, and dsp the you can get exactly the sound you want.

 

[TLS Guy]

Well yes I am after tighter more punchier bass but aren't we all? I would assume none of us would actually want boomy and flabby bass.

Vocabulary: What is "Qt"?

Now when you say audition speakers, are you also suggesting I sell my RTi12's for another pair of speakers? Don't get me wrong, I love the RTi12's I just think my system is lacking in bass. I am hoping that a subwoofer will fix this problem but now I am questioning on getting a sealed or ported subwoofer. I have read that ported subwoofers are ideal these days because it gives the listener more of a connection with the sound since the woofer is taking the air exposed in the room however I am terrified that because of this, there will be certain frequencies that will resonate within the enclosure of the woofer and produce boomy sound.



As I have mentioned before, my friends dad has a $1000 sealed Energy subwoofer that has been the best subwoofer I have ever heard in my life (pretty bold statement but I was absolutely blown away with its power and smoothness). Due to that, I am convinced that with a proper subwoofer, I too can achieve the sound I am looking for.

I do not understand why you guys are telling me to sell my RTi12's; yes I have complained that it doesn't produce the bass I was expecting, however isn't a subwoofer designed to continue the frequencies that the other speakers cannont produce?

I feel like I am contridicting myself from my original post, however I am convinced that the reason why I am not getting the sound I want is due to my crappy Klipsch Synergy Sub-10.

What are your thoughts?

Your system does not lack bass reach, it has a problem in the upper bass, I believe. You can mask it with a sub, as so often happens, but it is not accurate bass. I have a feeling you will not fall for it.

Qt is refers to the shape of a resonance curve. The smaller the narrower. All resonant devices have it. Now the total Qt of the system greatly affects the type of bass. Now in a sealed enclosure it is much easier to design a tight bass. A total Qt of 0.5 gives a tight bass that guitar players tend to prefer, I've noticed. A Qt over one tends to the boomy. For classical music a Qt of 0.75 to 1.0 seems optimal, but I personally don't like it over 0.8.

I have been thinking that a commercial type sealed bookshelf with a sealed sub crossing over at the F3 of the bookshelf, may be would satisfy you best.

I would get a good sealed sub and see how it works with what you have got, I bet you will change it however. I just don't see how a speaker with a passive crossover at 120 Hz can be anything other than a disaster. Unfortunately in the world of speakers disasters abound.

 

[AVRat]

I’d like to offer another option that may help, but not use the RTi-12s to their full potential. Another member, Buckeyefan 1, did this with his RTi-10s. Only use the upper section of the 12s by disconnecting the bass drivers and get a much better sub than the Klipsch, such as an HSU STF-2.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/
http://av123.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=178&category_id=9&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37&vmcchk=1&Itemid=37

 

[TLS Guy]

I’d like to offer another option that may help, but not use the RTi-12s to their full potential. Another member, Buckeyefan 1, did this with his RTi-10s. Only use the upper section of the 12s by disconnecting the bass drivers and get a much better sub than the Klipsch, such as an HSU STF-2.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/
http://av123.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=178&category_id=9&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37&vmcchk=1&Itemid=37

He would have to have a sub he can drive up to 120 Hz. The other problem is that makes for a huge waste of space.

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

He would have to have a sub he can drive up to 120 Hz. The other problem is that makes for a huge waste of space.

Hey so I was at work today trying out some subwoofers with the RTI A9 (pretty much the same thing as the RTi12). I was trying out some velodyne subwoofers and polk audio subwoofers. All were ported and all were very boomy sounding. Then finally I tried our Monster subwoofer. The first one was the Monster THX SL200-SW. This thing was ported and it was the smoothest bass in the whole department. The bass was very punchy and tight and carried the bass like as if a real bassist were to play it; exactly what I have been looking for. However, that thing is $1199 and personally I think that is way too much. Then I saw the Monster THX SL200-PSM; its pretty much the same thing, from my understanding, only in a tower form. This thing was also very good sounding, identically like the Monster SL200-SW and that is going for $599 and I can probably get a little more additional discount on top of that.

So I have finally found a ported subwoofer that is punchy and tight, and also carries a bass line as if if you were listening to a bassist at a live performance. My question to you guys is, what do you guys think of the Monster subwoofers, and are there equal or better sounding subwoofers for around the same or even less of price? I want to keep the price range around $600.

I know you guys hate Monster products because they are overpriced, I think so too, but this was one of the better sounding subwoofers I have heard. What are all your thoughts?

 

[TLS Guy]

Hey so I was at work today trying out some subwoofers with the RTI A9 (pretty much the same thing as the RTi12). I was trying out some velodyne subwoofers and polk audio subwoofers. All were ported and all were very boomy sounding. Then finally I tried our Monster subwoofer. The first one was the Monster THX SL200-SW. This thing was ported and it was the smoothest bass in the whole department. The bass was very punchy and tight and carried the bass like as if a real bassist were to play it; exactly what I have been looking for. However, that thing is $1199 and personally I think that is way too much. Then I saw the Monster THX SL200-PSM; its pretty much the same thing, from my understanding, only in a tower form. This thing was also very good sounding, identically like the Monster SL200-SW and that is going for $599 and I can probably get a little more additional discount on top of that.

So I have finally found a ported subwoofer that is punchy and tight, and also carries a bass line as if if you were listening to a bassist at a live performance. My question to you guys is, what do you guys think of the Monster subwoofers, and are there equal or better sounding subwoofers for around the same or even less of price? I want to keep the price range around $600.

I know you guys hate Monster products because they are overpriced, I think so too, but this was one of the better sounding subwoofers I have heard. What are all your thoughts?

I did my best to find out about the Monster sub.. However Monster are a company the peddles over priced junk. The specs are meaningless. They do state it reproduces up to 350 Hz, which is well out of subwoofer range. I suspect this was filling in for the upper your bass your speakers lack. I suspect you were turning up the other subs in the subrange and not correcting the problem as I predicted.

The woofers on those subs look cheap and nasty. I don't think you are on your way to true Hi-Fidelity sound.

 

[guitarplyrstevo]

I did my best to find out about the Monster sub.. However Monster are a company the peddles over priced junk. The specs are meaningless. They do state it reproduces up to 350 Hz, which is well out of subwoofer range. I suspect this was filling in for the upper your bass your speakers lack. I suspect you were turning up the other subs in the subrange and not correcting the problem as I predicted.

The woofers on those subs look cheap and nasty. I don't think you are on your way to true Hi-Fidelity sound.

haha well from the subs i tried that day, those two were by far the best. I tried the velodyne dls-5000r, the velodyne dls-4000r, the velodyne dls-3500r, the polk audio dsw proo 5000, the polk audio dsw 4000 and the monster subwoofers stood out like a sore thumb.

i know you cant really explain sound over writing but do you think the svs would have the sound of the monster subwoofer?

 

[bandphan]

haha well from the subs i tried that day, those two were by far the best. I tried the velodyne dls-5000r, the velodyne dls-4000r, the velodyne dls-3500r, the polk audio dsw proo 5000, the polk audio dsw 4000 and the monster subwoofers stood out like a sore thumb.

i know you cant really explain sound over writing but do you think the svs would have the sound of the monster subwoofer?

question is how do the sound in your room?

 

[TLS Guy]

haha well from the subs i tried that day, those two were by far the best. I tried the velodyne dls-5000r, the velodyne dls-4000r, the velodyne dls-3500r, the polk audio dsw proo 5000, the polk audio dsw 4000 and the monster subwoofers stood out like a sore thumb.

i know you cant really explain sound over writing but do you think the svs would have the sound of the monster subwoofer?

I don't think you have grasped the point. Under the conditions of your evealuation, the Monster's were impressing you exactly because they were not good subs. The decent subs are all going to act the way of the Velodyne. Prime sub range is 20 to 80Hz. I suspect your speakers , have a huge chasm around 120 Hz, out of what is considered sub range. The Monsters say they go to 350 Hz, that is not only out of sub range but but heading to the lower mid. The reason you get the result you did is because the Monsters filled a gap out of subrange, without having good output in the usual sub range. This is hardly good engineering, to correct one aberration with another.

As Bandphan points out below, this fix is likely highly room dependent. Don't bank on this fix working, if you bring the monsters home. You certainly have a Dragon by the tail here.