Another savage shows his true colors.

[jonnythan]

When you try to defend something at all costs its easy to be blinded by the reasons behind this.

My answer to your question is a resounding yes,but only twords the person who commited the henious crime,if there was a book or some other form of organized teachings that led to the sneaker murder then yes again,but your comparison does not hold water because nowhere is there an organization of people that openly support this type of crime,the same cant be said for the muslim religon.

Islam absolutely does not support this.

I'd like you to quote for me the line of the Qur'an that encourages fathers to murder their children for not wearing the right headgear.

 

[highfihoney]

Perhaps, Dave!! I got a question for the panel? How would you perceived this incident if he was white? I don't agree with many beliefs in the muslim faith but I don't beleive murdering your daughter is one of them. This entire post IMO is basically about stereotyping and I'll leave it at that.

How would this be perceived if the idiot was white,if the father was under the spell of some whacked out teachings like The Aryan Nation or Ku Klux Klan then it would be perceived in my eye's as savagery,if the white father acted out of his own reasons & not specified penalities written in a book he would be just another nut case,this comparison as with the others in this thread dont hold water.

Something that no defender of islam is willing to acknowledge in this thread,the father was taught to behave this way,his religon demanded that he kill the daughter.

Your right about stereotyping though,if any group of people has proven by its daily actions its intent is savagery its the muslim religon, are we to turn a blind eye to it,all under the pretense of live & let live.

The Koran is no different than the Credo of the Ku Klux Klan,both are books that defend & demand the use of violence & murder to further the cause,both are books that teach the superiority of one group over another.

 

[Johnd]

By segueing the two statements, you imply that they are related when they are not. "Yes, I am an American." ends in a period, it is a complete sentence and a complete thought.
Also, by omitting the context "I am not discriminatory", you made the second statement seem negative.

There may have been a minor infraction as they are in fact two separate statements. But they all belong to they same paragraph, so by your own hand, they are interrelated...by fiat.

The curious thing is, you prefaced your entire post with the "I am an American" rant, only to then pronounce that you disrespect all religions, as if the American title gives you that right. I submit it does not (give you the right to respect all those people that have a religion).

As jonnythan so poignantly illustrated, perhaps you did not mean what you wrote (which infers that you write haphazardly, or do not know what you write). I am not so forgiving. I took (and take) you at face value when you write that you disrespect all religions. By extension, you then disrespect all those who adhere to a religion.

Perhaps you meant none of this. Then perhaps you could choose your words a little more carefully so that you are not so easily misunderstood. The words speak for themselves. So they are not misunderstaood...you are.

 

[Johnd]

The Koran is no different than the Credo of the Ku Klux Klan

That's simply an untruth highfi, and you are simply wrong on this point.

 

[highfihoney]

Islam absolutely does not support this.

I'd like you to quote for me the line of the Qur'an that encourages fathers to murder their children for not wearing the right headgear.

My god,i could go on for days with quotes directly from that book that preach violence,the only problem is that as with any book of religon the quote i use will be open to interpretation,another problem with quoting is that instead of reading the writings in the literal sense, as the father did ,they'd be read in the American way,as lawyers trying to raise doubt in everything.There are many quotes i could post that could be applied to this case & I think you know that.

Any quote i post about women being subserviant to the husband/father will not be taken in the literal sense nor will any quote relating to the penalities to be applied to those who do not bow to the man's control.There are very specific reasons for the use of head gear for muslim women & you know that.

Instead of looking for a direct quote that we can all pick apart & analyze lets look at what any muslim becomes when they regect any part of the teachings of their sect of islam,to regect any of the teachings is to become a "Kafir",once any muslim becomes a Kafir they are subject to the penalty of death.

By disregarding her fathers wishes the daughter became a Kafir & was no longer under the protection of islam.

 

[jonnythan]

My god,i could go on for days with quotes directly from that book that preach violence

Please do.

There really aren't many, and they can all be countered with equivalent quotes from the Bible.

It's not a problem with religion. It's a problem with culture and it's roughly the same problem we have in the US. So be careful where you throw the insults and racism.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

The curious thing is, you prefaced your entire post with the "I am an American" rant, only to then pronounce that you disrespect all religions, as if the American title gives you that right.

Actually, I do have the right to disrespect whomever I please. I don't have the right to physically attack them or deny them their own rights, but how I feel about them is my prerogative (just as how they feel about me is theirs.)
All religions are just slight variations on primitive Man kneeling in front of a rock hoping it will stop the thunderstorm, and certainly not more rational (or more effective) than that. It seems reasonable to think that educated adults in the 21st century would have gotten past that behavioral stage. It is hard for me to respect those who have not, just as I would find it hard to respect someone who still believes in the tooth fairy at 18.
I really wouldn't care at all if religious people kept their beliefs to themselves (unless asked), but they insist on imposing them on others, sometime through legislation (for example, prohibiting gay marriage.) Also, they use religion as an excuse for unacceptable actions (which returns us to the OP.)

 

[jonnythan]

I really wouldn't care at all if religious people kept their beliefs to themselves (unless asked), but they insist on imposing them on others, sometime through legislation (for example, prohibiting gay marriage.) Also, they use religion as an excuse for unacceptable actions (which returns us to the OP.)

"They."

Those damn "religious people." Every last one of them is proselytizing and shoving their crap in my face. Every last one of them uses religion as an excuse for unacceptable actions such as murder. Every last one of them is an idiot whose beliefs are pure fantasy and akin to kneeling at a rock hoping the rain will come.

And "they" are the ones that need to grow up.

 

[billy p]

Hifi, when I first heard of this incident last week, I thought of posting it here? However, I didn't because after some deliberation I realized it wasn't about faith or religion. I am not a religious man, but I have faith. So I found it very difficult to bring myself to that conclusion and left it alone. I'm a father, as you are and I would kill myself 10x's over before I would harm my child and simply felt this man was mentally unstable or insane and I don't condone his actions.

Cheers, Billy P

 

[Joe Schmoe]

And "they" are the ones that need to grow up.

Yes, they are. (spoken with a complete lack of irony.)

 

[annunaki]

sometime through legislation (for example, prohibiting gay marriage.) Also, they use religion as an excuse for unacceptable actions (which returns us to the OP.)

Careful Joe , I would say the gay population has been pretty forward at imposing their views on the heterosexual population. That is a catch-22 example.

Gays only want to get married for tax benefits, insurance reasons, ect. for the most part. Marriage is more a religious ceremony than anything else. Legally all a marriage does is entitle one to half of the other person's things (should there be a divorce) and give you survivorship benefits.

Short of the tax breaks, there is not anyhthing it gives you that cannot be done with a legal name change, last will & testament, and power of attorney priviliges.


The religious folk see gay marriage as a threat to the institution of marriage. Though many hetero couples do not see to put much effort into them as the divorce rate hovers around 50%

That is entirely different though.

Sorry for going off topic.



As for religion, it was created by man. Therefore it is more or less doomed to fail or flawed from the beginning. However, personal faith and beliefs can survive for eternity and no one can take that away from anyone.

If you read what Jesus, Mohammed, and other prophets say, it was not go and start religions so you can fight amongst each other. It was to follow their teachings and spead their word by loving your neighbors, being kind to others, and treating others they way you would want to be treated. It seems much of this has been lost. If someone chooses to believe different than you, you do not judge them or resent them, you simply accept that is the choice they make and move on. Contuinue to speak to them, become their friend, show them you care about them, perhaps they will see the "light" and want to learn more of your faith. If not, who cares you still have a friend.

Religions need to look at their own "books" and live by example rather than forcing others to try to be like they are. All that does is breed resentment and hatred.

I am not religious, however I do believe there is a god. This universe had to come from somewhere. It takes faith to believe that.

Many people have a belief or religion but few really have faith. Many just believe it because they are afraid to ask questions on why they believe a certain way and close themselves off to others who believe differently. When someone questions them they are defensive because they really have no faith, just a belief and they defend the fear.

 

[Halon451]

Please do.

There really aren't many, and they can all be countered with equivalent quotes from the Bible.

It's not a problem with religion. It's a problem with culture and it's roughly the same problem we have in the US. So be careful where you throw the insults and racism.

It's not a problem with religion, it's a problem how certain people interpret religious beliefs. I'm no expert in the Koran, or the Muslim religion in general, but I don't believe that the Koran even specifies the proper dress for women - this is traditional arabic dress that is reflective of a culture, not the religion. If I am wrong, someone please correct me.

There is gross inequality between the male and female genders in many predominantly muslim places. I have been to the Middle East, and they have seperate entrances to banks and shops for women (they are usually around the side or the back of the building). Lest we not forget, that we Americans faced racial and gender inequalities here in our own country, and thought we have found ways to overcome them, the problems still exist, largely exacerbated by the media, whose intent is to fuel the divides and promote dissention on a grand scale (white/black, male/female, american/muslim, etc.).
This helps justify their existence when good ratings demand controversy in a society that would otherwise blend and learn to live well within its own diversity. This is why CNN threw up the label "honor killing", because it is deliberately trying to tie this madman's actions to a religion that was never created for this purpose.

And people who are narrow minded enough, continue to buy right into it, and learn to hate the entire group that an individual represents based on actions that only HE or SHE had control over, and chose to do so for whatever purposes they interpreted as their source material (be it the Bible, the Koran, or the ****** KKK handbook). Anyone of sound mind, and sense of human decency would not be able to hijack a religion to the extent that it inflicts death, harm or destruction, because it is not in the good will of humanity to do so. Therefore, the religion itself is not the problem, the people who comprise it are, and should be held accountable on a case by case basis, and within the laws of wherever they happen to be in the world.

Religion is not the problem. People are the problem. Hifi - you may not be a racist, but your words could lead someone to believe otherwise. It was posted in understandable anger over a senseless act of violence, and I don't think anyone would dispute you being upset over this - I think we are share a great deal of the agony over hearing such a story and quite frankly it makes me see red. I'd like to take a crowbar to the guy's skull myself.

However, many of the Muslim people I have met are not like this. You generalize and cast guilt upon innocent, peaceful people with your comments. See the story for what it is, not what you believe it to be.

 

[Johnd]

Actually, I do have the right to disrespect whomever I please.

Again, we disagree. Disrespect is a far-reaching word. If you mean dislike or disagree with, that's one thing. But disrespect is a proactive term...it is a verb. It is not the same as dislike or disagree. So, again we disagree (that you can disrespect whomever you wish whenever you desire). In my neck of the woods you wouldn't last very long espousing that kind of contempt. Maybe different parts of the US (and world, for that matter) tolerate that type of thing.

 

[highfihoney]

Please do.

There really aren't many, and they can all be countered with equivalent quotes from the Bible.

It's not a problem with religion. It's a problem with culture and it's roughly the same problem we have in the US. So be careful where you throw the insults and racism.

Racism

Islam is in no way the same problem as we have here in the US or related to us culture,the only simularities are savagery,but with US culture its not taught or government approved,with Islam its taught & approved.

The problem starts within the Koran & the problem is finalized within the books of Hadith & Tirmzi,which for those who dont know are the 2nd most important books aside from the Koran,they are used used to translate the meaning of the Koran for muslims,most muslims use a Hadith & Tirmzi to pratice their type of Islam.

From the Koran.

11/223: Your women are titlh,to cultivate as you wish,so go to your tilth.

IV/34: Men are the lord of women,because Allah hath made one of them to excell the other.As for those who ye fear rebellion,abmonish them,banish them & scourge them.

IV/15: If any of your women are guilty of lewdness,confine them until death claims them.

XXIV/6-7: For those men who accuse their wives but have no wittness except themselves,let his testimony act as the testimony of 4 men.

From the Tirmzi.

Page 439, If the woman is immodest the husband has the right to beat her but must not break her bones.

Page 430,it is forbidden for a woman to be seen by any other man when she is well dressed or made up.

From the Hadith.

Chapter 558 When a man calls his woman to bed & she does not come,the one who is in heaven will be displeased with her,this will continue until her husband is pleased with her again.

Chapter 576,Women were created in the shape of a rib & in no way will be straightned for man.


The 18 punishements from Allah tword women as described by "Gazzalli",an expert on Islam,these punishments are for Eve's transgression in the garden of eden.

1 Menstration.
2 Child birth.
3 Seperation from her father & to marry a strange man.
4 Pregnancy
5 Not having control of her own self or person.
6 Lesser share of inheratince.
7 Her inability to divorce a man.
8 Unable to have multiple husbands while her husband may have 4 wive's.
9 To stay secluded in the house.
10 To keep her head covered even in the house.
11 Two womens testimony will equal one man's testimony.
12 Cant leave the home unless accompanied by a close relative.
13 May not take part of the Friday feast or any funeral feasts.
14 Disqualified to be a ruler or judge.
15 The merit of a person has 100 points of merit,with only one being attributed to women,all other 99 points of merit are of man alone.
16 If women are profligate they will only be given half the torment as the rest at the resurection.
17 After the husband dies the woman must wait a period of 4 months & 10 days before she is to remarry.
18 After the husband divorces a wife she must wait a period of 3 months or 3 menstrual cycles before she remarry's.

Combine the things about women from the 3 books of Islam with this fact,acording to the Koran, being an Infidel or Kafir is punishable by death,now you have an explosive situation for women who dont blindly obey.

A simple refusal to wear proper head gear by a woman will be seen as an act of defiance twords the husbands wishes & will be seen as an act of defiance of Allah's law,a woman who refuses to obey her father or husband can be punished with violence but a woman who defy's gods law or is a non believer is a Kafir or an Infidel,both of which can be punished by death.

As for equlivant quotes from the bible,any would be irrelevant,people are not acting out "eye for an eye" quotes or "smight thee down" quotes from the bible in 2007.

 

[highfihoney]

Hifi - you may not be a racist, but your words could lead someone to believe otherwise. It was posted in understandable anger over a senseless act of violence

How can my words lead some to think im a racist,where in any post have i given the impression that i dissaprove of any race of people or wish malice on any race of people,please explain.

Does a man saying whats on his mind without tip toeing around a bunch of catch words make him a racist,i talk in no uncertian terms & i refuse to talk in pc terms,its not how people from my generation communicate,i see no need at this point in my life to become a PC man in order to make other people feel better,im happy with the person i am & so are the people in my life.

If others are easily offended by words that have no malicious intent i'd suggest they toughen up a bit instead of calling me a racist.

 

[Davemcc]

It's not a problem with religion. It's a problem with culture and it's roughly the same problem we have in the US.

The point I've been trying to make is that it is a problem with culture. Perhaps you fail to realize the dominant and pervasive, even overwhelming role that religion plays in Islam. Islam is the law. It is the politics. It is the culture. There is no separation of religion and culture in Islamic society.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Careful Joe , I would say the gay population has been pretty forward at imposing their views on the heterosexual population. That is a catch-22 example.

Gays per se were not the point of that example, religious ideas being turned into legislation (in violation of the constitutional separation of church and state) was. Other examples you might prefer include banning the use of fetal stem cells in medicine, attempts to force the teaching of "Intelligent Design" (aka Creationism) in public schools, and even not being able to buy liquor on Sunday.

 

[Halon451]

How can my words lead some to think im a racist,where in any post have i given the impression that i dissaprove of any race of people or wish malice on any race of people,please explain.

Does a man saying whats on his mind without tip toeing around a bunch of catch words make him a racist,i talk in no uncertian terms & i refuse to talk in pc terms,its not how people from my generation communicate,i see no need at this point in my life to become a PC man in order to make other people feel better,im happy with the person i am & so are the people in my life.

If others are easily offended by words that have no malicious intent i'd suggest they toughen up a bit instead of calling me a racist.

Perception is 110% of reality these days. I will be the first to admit that all Americans need to toughen up and stop acting like a bunch of whiny school-kids when someone says or does something that might remotely be construed as disagreeable to their precious feelings. This is a whole can of worms that isn't exactly relevant to this thread, so I'll leave it at that.

I don't believe you are a racist hifi, and I didn't say that you were. I've dealth with bigotry in my family for years (southern born, Christian, conservatives), so I know what bigotry and racism looks like. I've argued with them over it, and have made it clear where the errors in their judgment lie. My father was born and raised on a farm in Alabama, whereas we moved to the Tampa area when I was very young, and I grew up with an entirely different attitude, exposed to city life, and a diverse culture-base.

But this backlash is to be expected, and for good reason. It still isn't fair to label an entire society or culture for the evil deeds of a few. This is what is ultimately going to seperate us from the true barbarians in this world - that ability to evaluate logically even in the face of calamity. That is an attribute that we cannot place enough significance on.

 

[Tomorrow]

Just a tip abe. The infantile meddling will cease

Will the broadside subjective insults cease too? One can only hope.

 

[stratman]

Really, infantile meddling. What's wrong with infantile meddling? It adds some flavor to the dry pseudo-intellectual analytical horse manure, that the majority know it's bs to beging with.