Audio Critic's Ten Biggest Lies

P

Pat D

Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
Where have you been? Vacationing???
Good to see you posting again. :D
Oh no, I drop in from time to time. I just don't think I'm much needed around here as others usually make the points I would. But AR and especially AA are so unbalanced, although there are some sensible souls there. They have had long discussions at AA about that foolish Intelligent Chip, and even most of the die-hard subjectivists find that one a bit hard to take. Not Clark Johnsen, of course! And some others swear it makes a big difference with their CDs.
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
Someone there actually BOUGHT that thing? Oh god...

Remember everybody, this is the same company that sells a jar of polished rocks called "Brilliant Pebbles" and claims that it makes all kinds of differences.
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
Wow, I'm impressed. But at the same time confused. How can Stereophile publish a great editorial like this, and STILL plublish glowing reviews of $10,000 speaker cables? It boggles the mind.
 
H

hopjohn

Full Audioholic
it's all about faith

Maybe I should do a comparitive study on the audible differences between a bible, a pet rock, and a memory stick atop my player.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
jaxvon said:
Someone there actually BOUGHT that thing? Oh god...

Remember everybody, this is the same company that sells a jar of polished rocks called "Brilliant Pebbles" and claims that it makes all kinds of differences.

Someone? A number. That Johnsen guy is ... :D
 
P

Pat D

Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
WOW from me too, thanks. John Curl got it but good. Sorry to see no mention of Johnsen who should know better.

Is Stereopile coming around?
Well, I think if you look around the Stereophile site, you might find less sensible remarks about the Intelligent Chip. Jim Austin is in many ways a sensible guy, but he also tries to fit in with the group. I suspect Atkinson wants him on line for some balance, but not too much. Notice, for example, how Austin justifies not doing DBTs:

"Even in the realm of real devices, real components, and real effects, differences are often so subtle that you can hear them—really hear them—only if you have a very good ear and lots of listening experience. The differences are so subtle that double-blind testing—the standard method for distinguishing real effects from imaginary ones—has been rejected by much of the audiophile community as useless, except in the most obvious cases. This rejection is justifiable—even statisticians agree that DBT misses some subtle effects—but those of us who like to keep a tight grip on our wallets must mourn DBT's passing."

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/505awsi/index.html

Clark Johnsen felt lef out so he put in a letter which can be found in the link to the letters at the bottom of the article.

Atkinson did a piece justifying not using DBTs, too, in the July 2005 issue:

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/705awsi/

It's not on the site yet, but Jon Iverson has a piece in the August 2005 Stereophile justifying the abilities of the trained listener over using DBTs. Why the trained listener doesn't hear differences in a DBT that were heard sighted is not explained. This from a magazine that doesn't even bother to measure the performance of interconnects and speaker cables although they ostensibly think of them as "components." Don't ask me about it because I just read it on the newstand.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Pat D said:
Well, I think if you look around the Stereophile site, you might find less sensible remarks about the Intelligent Chip. Jim Austin is in many ways a sensible guy, but he also tries to fit in with the group. I suspect Atkinson wants him on line for some balance, but not too much. Notice, for example, how Austin justifies not doing DBTs:

"Even in the realm of real devices, real components, and real effects, differences are often so subtle that you can hear them—really hear them—only if you have a very good ear and lots of listening experience. The differences are so subtle that double-blind testing—the standard method for distinguishing real effects from imaginary ones—has been rejected by much of the audiophile community as useless, except in the most obvious cases. This rejection is justifiable—even statisticians agree that DBT misses some subtle effects—but those of us who like to keep a tight grip on our wallets must mourn DBT's passing."

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/505awsi/index.html

Clark Johnsen felt lef out so he put in a letter which can be found in the link to the letters at the bottom of the article.

Atkinson did a piece justifying not using DBTs, too, in the July 2005 issue:

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/705awsi/

It's not on the site yet, but Jon Iverson has a piece in the August 2005 Stereophile justifying the abilities of the trained listener over using DBTs. Why the trained listener doesn't hear differences in a DBT that were heard sighted is not explained. This from a magazine that doesn't even bother to measure the performance of interconnects and speaker cables although they ostensibly think of them as "components." Don't ask me about it because I just read it on the newstand.

Thanks for the further clarifications. I don't follow any of them, first time about Jim.
I did have a to read his comment sevberal times and still wasn't clear by his implications but now I am. He is no better than the rest. Cherry picking what he wants to, throwing things out when it doesn't suit him.

I know a guy like that, very powerful, in Washington, DC. :D
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
furrycute said:
How do you NOT pay retail for those Monster stuff??? :confused: :confused: :confused:
Online? I get my cabling on eBay when I buy Monster and I worked for a vendor so bought at/below cost for my power centers. There are always ways to get a deal if you are willing to look for it and have some patience.
 
M

musicgioni

Enthusiast
The thinking man's advice...

:)I have been reading the debate and comment on Audio Critic's "Audio's 10 biggest lies" with extreme sceptisism and wonder. I am a musicl lover and have been most my life. I am not a golden ear (nor a tin one either) and my economical situation is far from ideal. I can not afford any ultra expensive gear and have enough education in science (MSc in physics) and work experience to be able to make up my own mind on a lot of subjects regarding audio and hi-fi. I totally agree with a lot of people out there regarding some audio gear's ridiculous prices, pathetic pseudo science regarding cables, Shakti stones and other "scientific mambo jumbo" like CD treatments and LP de-magnetizers. My dollar is very precious and I spend it with a lot of care.

However friends, NOT all that I read regarding the "10 lies" holds true either! I have been in this hobby of ours for close to 25 years and anyone insisting that all gear sounds the same has simply either NOT heard different gear, is either with some serious hearing problems or just so much into the "measurments show all" mode of thinking that JUST does or can not Listen! I can hardly believe the comments that some people put in this and other forums! I have gone through quite a few amps, pre-amps, receivers, CD player and Turntables (not to say tuners and such) in my life to know that NOT a single piece of these sounded the same to my ears. I totally agree that speakers are by FAR the sinlge most serious component in a stereo system that affect the sound one has in his home. However the importance of amplification and other source components CAN NOT be underestimated. And these differences are not simply due to voicing as the Audio Critic or other similar publications seem to be preaching. There are differences between capacitors, resistors and topologies. There are BIG differences between tubes and transistors and the sound of these is purely based to one's tastes and sensitivities. I have been designing and building speakers as a hobby for close to 20 years and I can tell you that a few simple substitutions to the components used in the crosover (components of the same value but different quality) can make or break am otherwise well designed speaker. There are qualities that can not be measured or explained purely through measurments (yet...) and saying otherwise is just silly.

I seriously love reading The Audio Critic but I also read the other publications, with delight (and dismay lots of times) but this is the only way to be well informed on a ceratin subject. YES there is a lot of pseudo science and snake oil in the Hi-End industry and one HAS to use his brain and EARS to see through all the mumbo jumbo that is out there. No darn cable is ever worth more than a few dollars but gentlemen there IS a difference between a well designed and executed 12 gauge speaker cable and a 18 gauge electrical patch cord. Any EE worth his name can tell you that and any person with good ears and a decent stero rig can hear the difference. Anyway, this subject has been raging on for ever w/o any solution or end in sight. I know that it can not be resolved in here but my point is: Listen, seriously DO LISTEN and you may at least see part of the truth revealed! ANd although there are some superb values out there I can assure anyone tha wants to LISTEN that no simple chepo receiver can ever compare to a properly built amp. I have gone throught both and I still own both and NO I would could never live with my receiver after having heard what a good (and sensible) gear can do...

Have a good one you all!
 
Last edited:
anyone insisting that all gear sounds the same
I don't think anyone says this. Ever. This is often used as a reason to blow off skepticism, but in reality all the skeptics are saying is that well-made amplifiers, cables, etc - will all sound the same because they won't color the sound. That doesn't rule out amplifiers that aren't powerful enough to deliver dynamics or cables that don't have the gauge necessary to transfer proper signal.
 
Highlander

Highlander

Full Audioholic
...all the skeptics are saying is that well-made amplifiers, cables, etc - will all sound the same because they won't color the sound. That doesn't rule out amplifiers that aren't powerful enough to deliver dynamics...
So would it be true to say that all amplifiers sound the same at low volumes?
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
So would it be true to say that all amplifiers sound the same at low volumes?
Correction:

All well built amplifiers should sound the same at any volume as long as they have sufficient power to drive a given set of speakers within the sources full dynamic range*.

*This is of course assuming that the designer did not purposely add any coloration to said amplifier.
 
zhimbo

zhimbo

Audioholic General
:)
. There are qualities that can not be measured or explained purely through measurments (yet...)
If you mean qualities that don't show up in typical waveform measurements, etc., well, maybe.

But you don't have to worry about that.

Just LISTEN.

Under properly controlled BLIND testing conditions.

If you can still hear it, it's probably real. If you can't, it probably isn't.

Are there qualities that currently can't be measured AND can be heard under blind testing conditions?
 
B

Bloodstriker

Full Audioholic
Wow. That is an interesting article. I do have to comment about the Golden Ears thing and how he says that there is not such thing as a person that can hear sounds that others can't.

I find that remark extremely short sighted, and very illogical. There are no two people alike, and as such, each person will have different cabilities, whether it's eye sight, touch sensitivity, or hearing.

I can say that I thought my hearing was bad, until I had my ears clean by my doctor. The sounds that I heard were shocking, and extremely annoying for the first week. I was able to hear the most ridiculous things. I could hear the cd spinning in my car deck while driving at 50km/h.. nobody else in the car could hear that. I could hear people whisper from 30 feet away with a TV on. If I ran a finger lightly on top of my jeans, I could hear it very loudly and clearly. I could hear pebbles grinding on my tires and hitting my car's undercarriage going at highway speeds. When I turned, i could hear every part of the car creak with the stress of the turn. (This isn't a cheapo car either...it was 3 months old and I spent more than $50K).

Then, I went to listen to my audio equipment. I could hear a slight high pitched whine in the sounds, all treble sounded shrill and I "s" sounds were very crisp, yet uncomfortable.

All the while, I had more than 5 other people listening for all these sounds in daily life and on the audio equipment. Nobody could hear what I was hearing. That in itself makes me think the writer of the article drawing conclusions from nowhere.

But - I do have to say that the super-sensitive hearing went away after about 2 weeks. Maybe I need to get my ears cleaned again.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
So would it be true to say that all amplifiers sound the same at low volumes?
I doubt you can find a blanket statement in TAC that 'ALL' components, be it amps, preamps, whatever, sound the same. It comes with certain caveats:
Well designed as Clint indicated, used within its design parameters, amps with very low output impedance, levels matched to .1dB spl and under double blind listening protocols. The latter two is a must no matter what component you compare if you want reliable outcome.

David Rich and Peter Aczel, 'Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that Modern Audio Electronics are Acoustically Transparent,' 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053.
 

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