Yamaha RX-A6 multichannel performance

T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
Some still confuse LFE channel info from 5.1/7.1 signals with low frequencies from 2.0 signals. While both can be output from the subwoofer pre out depending on AVP/AVR settings, they are not the same thing.

This is why Denon/Marantz offers the LFE + Main(Low Frequency Effects from the LFE .1 channel in 5.1/7.1 signals + Low Frequencies from 2.0 signals in the Mains) setting for the Subwoofer output so that lower frequencies from 2.0 signals can be output from subwoofers when speakers are set to Large or when selecting Direct or Pure Direct modes regardless of speaker size settings.

The Yamaha RX-A6A, the actual subject of the thread, has no such feature and like other Yamahas is equipped with Yamaha’s “Extra Bass” feature which should never be used when speakers are set to Small as it actually boosts bass and introduces nasty noise and does nothing for getting sound output from the subwoofer when playing 2.0 signals and set to Pure Direct.

The lack of the “LPF of LFE” feature in Yamaha units means LFE frequency output cannot be adjusted. One might assume it is set at 120Hz but who the f#%k knows?

Without all of the information concerning specific speakers and settings, I wouldn’t say the RX-A6A should not be used to power 4 ohm speakers at all. I’d just be mindful of crossover settings, PEQ settings and volume levels in the receiver for the particular speakers.

Unless one is using the 7.1 EXT. IN on older Denon/Marantz units that bypass all but volume leveling, assume some processing is being done to signals in the unit when using the LFE + Main feature in Direct/Pure Direct mode. I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it. Though, I have been up late tinkering with Spotify lossless output using Spotify Connect and Airplay among different receivers and devices. But, that is for another thread.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The fact is, if you connect a 8 ohm resistor to a 16 V source, the current flow will be 2 A whether you measure it upstream or downstream of the resistor load. Same for a filter load such as a series inductor, the current will be the same at the input and output side of the filter.

Unlike something like a mechanical filter (eg paper cone) the electrical filter load (LCR network for passive) enforces the filtered effect/frequency spectrum of the signal right at the connection point at source, ie in this case the amp’s output terminals. If you measure/probe for voltage then yes you won’t see the filtered effect, it will be full bandwidth for both pairs of wires, biwire or not. In that case the current seen by the instrument will be subjected to the very high input impedance of the instrument so any connected filter loads will have insignificant effects.

As you alluded to, I suppose, in the last video, that sometimes there may not be mechanical analogy that fits perfectly to electrical circuit theories.
 
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m. zillch

m. zillch

Audioholic Intern
That does not mean the currents in the two pair of wires/path are the same, and they are 100% not the same
Measured as these following proper analogous points (I more clearly diagram below, taken from part 2), rather than the bogus/invalid comparison points of x vs. Y (which marketers misdirect us to with their clever trick), they are the same.

You seem to be discussing current, not voltage, yet all your frame grabs are oddly taken from my first video which discussed voltage. Why didn't you address whatever objections you (may) have with my claims regrading current from my video which addressed current, Part 2?

In any event, which of these 6 proclamations I make in it (at 9m30s), if any, do you claim I am incorrect about?

1759525082889.png



Or is your position perhaps that in this following proclamation regarding current (from Pt. 2, 9m04s) I am incorrect?
1759526518339.png


It's hard to make these sorts of videos so they are both easy to understand by a broad YouTube audience (many of whom have never examined a single electrical block diagram in their life), yet also 100% technically spot on without using shortcuts and simplified language/concepts such as the often cited (yet imperfect) hydraulic analogy. I apologize if I at points made some mistakes and, for example, used the term "signal" whereas I more precisely should have clarified if I was meant voltage, current, or both.
 
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m. zillch

m. zillch

Audioholic Intern
P.S. I also had planned on a section debunking the misleading BS pushed out by Jon Risch (sp?) and Q-acoustics but I omitted it for brevity.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
P.S. I also had planned on a section debunking the misleading BS pushed out by Jon Risch (sp?) and Q-acoustics but I omitted it for brevity.
I look forward to reading your high quality presentations related to this hobby. Welcome to this forum.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Measured as these following proper analogous points (I more clearly diagram below, taken from part 2), rather than the bogus/invalid comparison points of x vs. Y, they are the same.

You seem to be discussing current, not voltage, yet all your frame grabs are oddly taken from my first video which discussed voltage. Why didn't you address whatever objections you (may) have with my claims regrading current from my video which addressed current, Part 2?

In any event, which of these 6 proclamations I make in it (at 9m30s), if any, do you claim I am incorrect about?

View attachment 75740


Or is your position perhaps that in this following proclamation regarding current (from Pt. 2, 9m04s) I am incorrect?
View attachment 75741

It's hard to make these sorts of videos so they are both easy to understand by a broad YouTube audience (many of whom have never examined a single electrical block diagram in their life), yet also 100% technically spot on without using shortcuts and simplified language/concepts such as the often cited (yet imperfect) hydraulic analogy. I apologize if I at points made some mistakes and, for example, used the term "signal" whereas I more precisely should have clarified if I was meant voltage, current, or both.
Will get back to you tomorrow. For now, I would say it’s more about Pt1 that I had stronger reaction to, the later ones are much clearer.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
You seem to be discussing current, not voltage,

Part 2?
Yes, discussing current, not voltage because on the voltage side is it obvious that it will be the same, the amps will amplify the same full bandwidth signal.

yet all your frame grabs are oddly taken from my first video which discussed voltage. Why didn't you address whatever objections you (may) have with my claims regrading current from my video which addressed current
Because I have very little reason to object your follow up videos as you did address current, whereas Pt1, if someone only read that one, then one might think the bandwidth in both pairs of wires would have the same bandwidth content since you proved it with measurements, even included the FFT diagram iirc. But the FFTs would have shown a different story if you were to measure the current signal waveforms instead of voltage.

It's hard to make these sorts of videos so they are both easy to understand by a broad YouTube audience (many of whom have never examined a single electrical block diagram in their life), yet also 100% technically spot on without using shortcuts and simplified language/concepts such as the often cited (yet imperfect) hydraulic analogy. I apologize if I at points made some mistakes and, for example, used the term "signal" whereas I more precisely should have clarified if I was meant voltage, current, or both.
I did appreciate that fact, it was a high quality presentation, unlike many of the YT videos nowadays, that's the main reason why I really wanted to contact you about it in the past, but I didn't prefer to post on AVSF that much. I much prefer Audioholics because I admire Gene, an EE, and also Audiosciencereview.com as I also admire Amir thought the two don't seem to always see eye to eye, one of my regret, but...

Measured as these following proper analogous points (I more clearly diagram below, taken from part 2), rather than the bogus/invalid comparison points of x vs. Y (which marketers misdirect us to with their clever trick), they are the same.

In any event, which of these 6 proclamations I make in it (at 9m30s), if any, do you claim I am incorrect about?
Sure, point by point as below:

1759576375357.png



No issues at all with above.


Or is your position perhaps that in this following proclamation regarding current (from Pt. 2, 9m04s) I am incorrect?

1759576450157.png
You've got this right, that's exactly my point, that the above was technically incorrect. I highlight "technically" because for non EEs and/or someone who has some EE knowledge, it wouldn't matter, but still worth "correcting" (hope you don't mind using this term) as it might misled those reader as I mentioned before, if left uncorrected. Your "...the current measurements will be nearly exactly the same......assuming a sufficiently thick gauge....." implied that you did not address the FFT part, if you did you would have click that, because the FFT would be different, so even the magnitude could be very different depending on the music signal used.

For clarify, let me emphasized that I do understand in term of the currents (magnitude and freq spectrum) in T and W would be the same in both biwire and single wire secenrios, no arguments there, but keep in mind the believers (the technically knowledgeable ones such as the reputable speaker manufacturers clealy understand that too) never claimed currents in T and W would be different in either cases, it is so obvious, the HPF and LPF are still going to be the same in both cases. All the believers claim are the potential benefits of separating the current paths for the HPF and LPF between the amp output terminals and the speaker input terminals. I think on this specific point, you and I agreed, manufacturers, such as Paradign, Q-Accoustics, Polk audio tened to exaggerate to the nth degree.

Again, my "objection" is as I explained in my previous couple of posts, that the clamp on ammeter will register different currents in terms of magnitude that can be seen easily by using something like a pink noise, music could be used too but it might be hard to see depending on the music contents used.

Likewise, if you use an analyzer to compare the current contents, you will see the totally different FFTs between Y and Z.

Again, the quick takeaway is, when you probe X, Y, or Z with a voltmeter you are compare the voltages that would of course be the same, because the loads presented would be the voltmeter's very high input impedance, at last 1 M-ohm right?
I absolutely understand, and really appreciate of your presentations, and so far this particular one is the only one I wanted to counter a couple of minor technical points, and I hope to see more of such high quality presentations, not only by you, but also by others who would base their presentations on objective engineering facts than internet hearsay hyperbole.

I apologize if I at points made some mistakes and, for example, used the term "signal" whereas I more precisely should have clarified if I was meant voltage, current, or both.
You don't owe anyone apology at all! I appreciate your openness. I think we need more people like you, who is not shy to (so I think) to post useful info, debunk myth, and if challenged on correctness, just discuss, agreed, disagreed with whoever counter any specific points, and then move on.

By the way, as you mentioned the biwire, biamp, active/passive is a highly controversial topic on forums, and in the past I have valued a few contributors on the very topic, all from the old days:

To Bi-Wire or Not | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

Bi-amping vs Bi-wiring: What's the Difference and is it Audible?

The other one you might have come across as he posted on AVSF before two, is jneutron.

jneutron might have been the only one who did try to quantify some of the claimed benefits, with math, as far as I could tell, he is a physicist, whereas Gene, and Russ_I are obviously EEs.

Bi-Wiring A Loudspeaker: Does it Make a Difference?

Then there is the always there as unnamed heroes, on the Rod Elliot's ESP site:

BiAmp (Bi-Amplification - Not Quite Magic, But Close) - Part 1

To conclude this technical exchange, I would just regurgitate some of the things said:

- Passive biamp has theoretical benefits but most likely no audible benefits except in some specific use cases.
- Biwire has much less theoretical benefits of passive biamp, but it does allow the LF and HF to reach the speakers LF, HF filters thereby reducing any the potential, though insignificant effects due to the LF/HF currents interacting with each other as explained in one of the link (the St. Andrew university one) article above.
- Active biamp, if done well, should have the most benefits vs the other two methods, audibly better or not would be a different story, and most likely would depend on individual use cases/applications.

Lastly, to the OP, sorry I derailed your thread, just didn't want to miss the opportunity to have a discussion with @m. zillch , one of my favorite poster who I know wouldn't mind to discuss such matters that involve EE principles vs internet hearsay/misconceptions with someone who also has a decent EE background.:)
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yamaha’s “Extra Bass” feature which should never be used when speakers are set to Small as it actually boosts bass and introduces nasty noise and does nothing for getting sound output from the subwoofer when playing 2.0 signals and set to Pure Direct.
I did an experiment last night comparing Yamaha CX-A5100 Extra Bass ON with Small (XO = 120Hz) vs Large (XO bypass) speaker setting in Straight Surround mode. Bookshelf Speaker = RBH SX-T1/R, Sub = RBH SX-1010N.

1. Pure Direct Mode. The LFE is turned off. So no bass to subwoofer SX-1010 at all. I couldn’t tell any difference in bass from the speaker SX-T1 with Large vs Small settings.

2. Straight Mode. Again, I didn’t hear a difference in bass from the speaker SX-T1 in Large or Small settings. But for the subwoofer SX-1010, there was a huge difference. Small Speaker Extra Bass produces a lot more bass from the subwoofer than Large Speaker Extra Bass.

So in conclusion, Yamaha Extra Bass produces a lot more bass from the subwoofer when the speaker setting is set to Small than when the speaker is set to Large.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I followed up my Extra Bass experiment to the 2 REAR SURROUND speakers SX-T1 (first one was front 2 speakers).

Speaker set to LARGE produces more bass than speaker set to SMALL for the Surround speakers.

So the result for the Surround speakers is different than for the Front Main speakers.
 
m. zillch

m. zillch

Audioholic Intern
. . . someone who also has a decent EE background.:)
Speaking of people with EE backgrounds, I was happy to see Gene comment on my Part 1 video, which I pinned to the top as my favorite commenter:

Audioholics: "Great video! The only slight difference in single vs biwiring is cable impedance which is negligible lF Your using a sufficient gauge. "

My response: "Thanks! Since you, Gene, have a degree in electrical engineering and on top of that work professionally specifically in the field of high-end audio gear review and analysis, I am honored you like it! I think you will dig upcoming Part 2 (and 3?) even more because I reveal something that's mind blowing, at least it was for me!"

I too am sorry to have derailed the thread, everyone. Now back to our regularly scheduled program . . .
 
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T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
I did an experiment last night comparing Yamaha CX-A5100 Extra Bass ON with Small (XO = 120Hz) vs Large (XO bypass) speaker setting in Straight Surround mode. Bookshelf Speaker = RBH SX-T1/R, Sub = RBH SX-1010N.

1. Pure Direct Mode. The LFE is turned off. So no bass to subwoofer SX-1010 at all. I couldn’t tell any difference in bass from the speaker SX-T1 with Large vs Small settings.

2. Straight Mode. Again, I didn’t hear a difference in bass from the speaker SX-T1 in Large or Small settings. But for the subwoofer SX-1010, there was a huge difference. Small Speaker Extra Bass produces a lot more bass from the subwoofer than Large Speaker Extra Bass.

So in conclusion, Yamaha Extra Bass produces a lot more bass from the subwoofer when the speaker setting is set to Small than when the speaker is set to Large.
Those results sound right. But, do not confuse low frequencies in 2.0 signals with LFE. LFE is present only in multichannel 5.1/7.1 signals. If playing a signal that contains the .1 channel(LFE), a signal will be output to the subwoofer even in Pure Direct mode. A subwoofer connected to a subwoofer pre out will produce sound from the .1(LFE) channel and low frequencies from other channels based on speaker, subwoofer and crossover settings. As for Yamaha models, 2.0 signals in Pure Direct mode means no signal will be sent to the subwoofer when playing 2.0 signals. When playing 2.0 signals in Straight mode with speakers set to Large, the lower frequencies of the signal will be sent to the subwoofer when Extra Bass setting is ON. If speakers are set to Small using Straight mode, the bass is boosted and actually does create "Extra Bass." When Pure Direct mode is selected for playback, the speaker setting size does not matter at all. It will matter when switching to another mode that enables DSP.
I followed up my Extra Bass experiment to the 2 REAR SURROUND speakers SX-T1 (first one was front 2 speakers).

Speaker set to LARGE produces more bass than speaker set to SMALL for the Surround speakers.

So the result for the Surround speakers is different than for the Front Main speakers.
Did you rewire the Surround Back speakers to be the Front speakers? If playing a 2.0 signal, you would have had to use a mode other than Pure Direct mode or Straight mode to get a signal to the Surround Back speakers if they were still configured as such. If still wired as Surround Back speakers, the bass output from them would be increased if all speakers were set to Large and using an up mixer. Bass would also have been output from the subwoofer if Extra Bass was ON. If set to Small, the subwoofer would have handled the frequencies below the crossover setting and bass would have been boosted with the Extra Bass setting ON.

The following settings and speaker configurations should result in the same behavior among different Yamaha AVP and AVR models when playing 2.0 signals:

2.0 signal + Pure Direct mode + Large OR Small Speaker Setting = No sound is output from the Subwoofer

2.0 signal + Large Speaker Setting + Straight mode + Extra Bass OFF = The Low Frequencies in 2.0 signals are NOT copied to the Subwoofer and No sound is output from the Subwoofer

2.0 signal + Large Speaker Setting + Straight mode + Extra Bass ON = The low frequencies in 2.0 signals are copied to the Subwoofer and sound IS output from the Subwoofer

2.0 signal + Small Speaker Setting + Straight mode + Extra Bass OFF = The low frequencies in the 2.0 signals below the Crossover Setting are sent to the Subwoofer and sound IS output from the Subwoofer.

2.0 signal + Small Speaker Setting + Straight mode + Extra Bass ON = The low frequencies in the 2.0 signals below the Crossover Setting are sent to the Subwoofer and the sound output by the subwoofer is Boosted for "Extra Bass"

There are some differences in the behavior of sound output when those 2.0 signals are replaced with multichannel 5.1/7.1 signals as there is information in the .1(LFE) channel and sound will be output from the Subwoofer in Pure Direct mode when playing such signals.

For those that want their Front speakers to receive an unmolested "Full Band" signal when playing 2.0 signals using Pure Direct mode AND ALSO want sound output from their subwoofer while in Pure Direct mode, they will NOT be able to do as much with a Yamaha AVP/AVR. They will have to look to other models such as those by Denon/Marantz that feature the LFE + Main setting.

While I'm being nitpicky, will folks please stop referring to speakers 6 and 7 in 7.1 or more configurations as Rear Surrounds. They are the Surround Back speakers. Speakers 4 and 5 are the Surround speakers and speakers 6 and 7 are the Surround Back speakers. Rear would only apply to the Rear Presence speakers when discussing a unit such as the Yamaha CX-5100 or the RX-A6A.
 
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