Coronavirus

[Swerd]

I also have questions.

1. What would account for the uninfected seemingly becoming "smarter" in the quarantine period?

2. What would account for both groups appearing to decline significantly after 90 days?

No, you're not reading it wrong. Both your questions reflect the unreliability of unblinded self-assessments.

Your first question suggests the number of people in the study group was too small. Is that a real difference, or would these apparent differences go away in a larger group?

Your second question about the significant decline in both groups after 90 days, suggests how big a factor motivation played in these self-assessments. After 90 days it might have been too boring to perform those same tests again.

 

[Swerd]

@mtrot
You read this graph more carefully than I did. After I saw the Y axis label "Baseline Corrected Global Composite Cognitive Score (SDU)" I shrugged and gave up looking at it more closely. What does that title mean? What does SDU stand for?

It looks to me like the Y axis is a ratio of some kind with positive and negative values, with zero in the middle. Are these ratios, corrected (normalized) to something? Are differences between ratios of zero and +0.5 to +1.5 large or small? Any thing that compares corrected ratios has a significant error built into it. If you show scores with less correction, without a multiplication or division step in it, these errors will be smaller.

 

[davidscott]

In what way did you feel that? Covid shot makes my arm a bit stiff, not the flue. No running nose are anything.

The senior flu shot made my arm hurt more than the covid. I believe the overall body aches were due the covid shot as that has happened to me in the past. The difference is that I took alieve this time which I never did in the past. Still felt bad but not horrible. Anyway 2 days later all good.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The senior flu shot made my arm hurt more than the covid. I believe the overall body aches were due the covid shot as that has happened to me in the past. The difference is that I took alieve this time which I never did in the past. Still felt bad but not horrible. Anyway 2 days later all good.

My last year's combo shot was 180 from yours. Flu was nothing, unless it wasn't a senior dose that it should have been. A bit of sore arm for Covid, same with the shot 6 month ago.
Yes, two days is nothing but a memory. Better than the alternative.

 

[davidscott]

My last year's combo shot was 180 from yours. Flu was nothing, unless it wasn't a senior dose that it should have been. A bit of sore arm for Covid, same with the shot 6 month ago.
Yes, two days is nothing but a memory. Better than the alternative.

Absolutely better than the alternative. Glad you have less reactions than I do. Tomorrow, I get the RSV shot. Dont expect any reaction.

 

[cpp]

Absolutely better than the alternative. Glad you have less reactions than I do. Tomorrow, I get the RSV shot. Dont expect any reaction.

I get the RSV late next week as well. And what I've heard, its the shot that can really fatigue you. I guess we shall see.

 

[Mr._Clark]

CNN has an article listing COVID wastewater levels for each state:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/29/health/covid-wastewater-testing-map-dg/index.html

 

[mtrot]

I realize this is a small study, but many of the "young, healthy, seronegative volunteers" had cognitive problems after they were given the COVID virus.

View attachment 69697

>>>Patient-reported outcomes and cross-sectional evidence show an association between COVID-19 and persistent cognitive problems. The causal basis, longevity and domain specificity of this association is unclear due to population variability in baseline cognitive abilities, vulnerabilities, virus variants, vaccination status and treatment. . . . These results support larger cross sectional findings indicating that mild Wildtype SARS-CoV-2 infection can be followed by small changes in cognition and memory that persist for at least a year. The mechanistic basis and clinical implications of these small changes remain unclear. . . .

We found that volunteers who exhibited sustained viral load after inoculation with SARS-CoV-2 performed worse on a measure of global cognition, than volunteers who did not exhibit sustained viral load. This deficit persisted up to a year after inoculation. <<<

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(24)00421-8/fulltext

Getting back to this study, I remain skeptical. Can anyone tell me if a sustained diminution of cognitive function has been suggested or documented after infection with any other virus, i.e., influenza, RSV, rhinovirus, or even other coronaviruses? Is a sustained cognitive diminution a known effect? Because, if so, and considering the number of times the average person becomes infected with viruses during their life, wouldn't we all be numbskulls by the age of 50 or 60? Or, could the covid virus be uniquely able to produce this effect? I have no idea, just wondering.

 

[highfigh]

Getting back to this study, I remain skeptical. Can anyone tell me if a sustained diminution of cognitive function has been suggested or documented after infection with any other virus, i.e., influenza, RSV, rhinovirus, or even other coronaviruses? Is a sustained cognitive diminution a known effect? Because, if so, and considering the number of times the average person becomes infected with viruses during their life, wouldn't we all be numbskulls by the age of 50 or 60? Or, could the covid virus be uniquely able to produce this effect? I have no idea, just wondering.

A former neighbor who works in health care told me about his problems after COVID, which included the feeling that he was standing on foam rubber, 'brain fog', fatigue and coughing after recovery. He works for Ascention and they decided that since he had been a police officer and had served in the military, he would be able to handle moving the many patients who died 'from COVID' into refrigerated trailers. Great.

Not results from a study, but still disturbing.

 

[Swerd]

Getting back to this study, I remain skeptical. Can anyone tell me if a sustained diminution of cognitive function has been suggested or documented after infection with any other virus, i.e., influenza, RSV, rhinovirus, or even other coronaviruses?

Go back to the Lancet paper and carefully read the Introduction and Discussion sections. Look up all the papers these authors cite, (Especially see references 1-12. Use the PubMed links.)

Read & understand these papers as well as you can. They should answer most of your questions. They may not satisfy you, but it shows that the authors know about them and think they are valid background for their own study.

In brief, they say that many previous clinical observations of Covid-19 patients suggest that cognitive impairment may be a problem. Much more research is needed before this can be though of as a likely consequence of Covid-19 infection.

Is a sustained cognitive diminution a known effect? Because, if so, and considering the number of times the average person becomes infected with viruses during their life, wouldn't we all be numbskulls by the age of 50 or 60? Or, could the covid virus be uniquely able to produce this effect? I have no idea, just wondering.

The authors wondered too. That's why they did the study.

 

[davidscott]

Had the RSV shot this morning. So far nothing but I will probably take an Aleve before bedtime just in case.

 

[Mr._Clark]

Go back to the Lancet paper and carefully read the Introduction and Discussion sections. Look up all the papers these authors cite, (Especially see references 1-12. Use the PubMed links.)

Read & understand these papers as well as you can. They should answer most of your questions. They may not satisfy you, but it shows that the authors know about them and think they are valid background for their own study.

In brief, they say that many previous clinical observations of Covid-19 patients suggest that cognitive impairment may be a problem. Much more research is needed before this can be though of as a likely consequence of Covid-19 infection.
The authors wondered too. That's why they did the study.

FWIW, the study I posted earlier is one of 2 Eric Topol mentioned in his blog.

>>>[T]his week, 2 new publications have substantially added to our understanding of the extent that Covid can impair cognitive function across the full gamut— from young, healthy individuals with mild infections to older, hospitalized patients with severe Covid.<<<

Covid Brain

Two important studies this week shed new light on after-effects, 1-year out, and other key updates

erictopol.substack.com

Here's the other study:

Posthospitalization COVID-19 cognitive deficits at 1 year are global and associated with elevated brain injury markers and gray matter volume reduction - Nature Medicine

A national prospective study of patients requiring hospitalization for COVID-19 demonstrates global cognitive deficits at 1 year, associated with elevated brain injury markers and reduced gray matter volume.

www.nature.com

Here are his comments on the other study:

>>>The main findings, some of which are summarized in the graphic below, were:

1. Significant reduction in cognitive performance scores in all of the 8 case clusters compared with controls, especially executive function, worse among those by severity of Covid, abnormal mental health status of encephalopathy during the acute phase.
2. Substantial and persistent, ongoing increase in brain injury markers in the COVID and NeuroCOVID patients—NFL, Tau, GFAP and UCH-L1. Serum GFAP is expressed by astrocytes, which are key immune mediators, and supports the mechanism of injury is immune-mediated.
3. Gray matter atrophy, particularly seen in the volume of the anterior cingulate cortex.
4. Subjective symptoms of cognitive impairment were correlated with objective findings. In addition, depression was frequently reported.
5. By the Global Deviation from Expected (GDfE) score assessment, the cognitive deficits were equivalent to a 20-year acceleration (e.g. performance of a 50-year old at the 70-year old level)

Cognitive deficits were more likely in patients with a neurologic or psychiatric complication, older age, more comorbidities, There was some protection noted with higher educational level and in-hospital treatment with dexamethasone.<<<

This is somewhat interesting to me, but YMMV.

 

[mtrot]

FWIW, the study I posted earlier is one of 2 Eric Topol mentioned in his blog.

>>>[T]his week, 2 new publications have substantially added to our understanding of the extent that Covid can impair cognitive function across the full gamut— from young, healthy individuals with mild infections to older, hospitalized patients with severe Covid.<<<

Covid Brain

Two important studies this week shed new light on after-effects, 1-year out, and other key updates

erictopol.substack.com

Here's the other study:

Posthospitalization COVID-19 cognitive deficits at 1 year are global and associated with elevated brain injury markers and gray matter volume reduction - Nature Medicine

A national prospective study of patients requiring hospitalization for COVID-19 demonstrates global cognitive deficits at 1 year, associated with elevated brain injury markers and reduced gray matter volume.

www.nature.com

Here are his comments on the other study:

>>>The main findings, some of which are summarized in the graphic below, were:

1. Significant reduction in cognitive performance scores in all of the 8 case clusters compared with controls, especially executive function, worse among those by severity of Covid, abnormal mental health status of encephalopathy during the acute phase.
2. Substantial and persistent, ongoing increase in brain injury markers in the COVID and NeuroCOVID patients—NFL, Tau, GFAP and UCH-L1. Serum GFAP is expressed by astrocytes, which are key immune mediators, and supports the mechanism of injury is immune-mediated.
3. Gray matter atrophy, particularly seen in the volume of the anterior cingulate cortex.
4. Subjective symptoms of cognitive impairment were correlated with objective findings. In addition, depression was frequently reported.
5. By the Global Deviation from Expected (GDfE) score assessment, the cognitive deficits were equivalent to a 20-year acceleration (e.g. performance of a 50-year old at the 70-year old level)

Cognitive deficits were more likely in patients with a neurologic or psychiatric complication, older age, more comorbidities, There was some protection noted with higher educational level and in-hospital treatment with dexamethasone.<<<

This is somewhat interesting to me, but YMMV.

Interesting. Well, this raises more questions in my mind.

It seems that some people have ended up getting infected with covid multiple times, perhaps around once per year. So, does this mean that such an individual's cognitive function may decline further each year after reinfection, resulting in a continuing downward level of function? If so, then you definitely do not want to catch covid again. Or, is there a level at which their cognitive function does not drop any lower?

Also, in such a person, in the event of several ensuing years of good health and no covid re-infection, would a recovery of cognitive function be expected, or would the covid related loss be permanent?

 

[Swerd]

Read the short Eric Topol article, especially the Summing Up section. It addresses some of your questions. But, at present, there are no clear answers.

@Mr._Clark Thanks for that link!

The state of science & medicine for Brain Covid and Long Covid are in very early stages. Clinical medicine has identified them as real problems but no one yet knows what mechanisms are involved, much less how to treat them. Consider them as "Unmet Needs". Vaccines clearly prevent serious and/or lengthy infections. But too many people avoid vaccines … for a variety of invalid reasons.

Other than that, anti-inflammation treatments remain. Most anti-infammatory drugs can be effective over the short run but are toxic with longer exposure. As a result, no one knows how to approach these problems – at present. So get the vaccines & boosters, and stay tuned.

It seems that some people have ended up getting infected with covid multiple times, perhaps around once per year. So, does this mean that such an individual's cognitive function may decline further each year after reinfection, resulting in a continuing downward level of function? If so, then you definitely do not want to catch covid again. Or, is there a level at which their cognitive function does not drop any lower?

At present, no one knows answers to your questions.

Also, in such a person, in the event of several ensuing years of good health and no covid re-infection, would a recovery of cognitive function be expected, or would the covid related loss be permanent?

With what we now know, it sounds like a dangerous gamble to imagine just how a person may or may not be affected by Covid-19 infections.

 

[Mr._Clark]

Read the short Eric Topol article, especially the Summing Up section. It addresses some of your questions. But, at present, there are no clear answers.

@Mr._Clark Thanks for that link!

The state of science & medicine for Brain Covid and Long Covid are in very early stages. Clinical medicine has identified them as real problems but no one yet knows what mechanisms are involved, much less how to treat them. Consider them as "Unmet Needs". Vaccines clearly prevent serious and/or lengthy infections. But too many people avoid vaccines … for a variety of invalid reasons.

Other than that, anti-inflammation treatments remain. Most anti-infammatory drugs can be effective over the short run but are toxic with longer exposure. As a result, no one knows how to approach these problems – at present. So get the vaccines & boosters, and stay tuned.
At present, no one knows answers to your questions.
With what we now know, it sounds like a dangerous gamble to imagine just how a person may or may not be affected by Covid-19 infections.

Yer welcome!

I signed up for Topol's Ground Truths newsletters. They are quite interesting.

Quanta Magazine is the only other newsletter I signed up for.

Science and Math News | Quanta Magazine

Illuminating mathematics, physics, biology and computer science research through public service journalism.

www.quantamagazine.org

 

[davidscott]

2 days after my RSV shot. Absolutely nothing, nada, not even a sore arm.

 

[Mr._Clark]

I got COVID and flu shots last week Friday. Both shoulders were sore the day after but nothing else other than possibly an ever so slight touch of fatigue the day after.

 

[TLS Guy]

FWIW, the study I posted earlier is one of 2 Eric Topol mentioned in his blog.

>>>[T]his week, 2 new publications have substantially added to our understanding of the extent that Covid can impair cognitive function across the full gamut— from young, healthy individuals with mild infections to older, hospitalized patients with severe Covid.<<<

Covid Brain

Two important studies this week shed new light on after-effects, 1-year out, and other key updates

erictopol.substack.com

Here's the other study:

Posthospitalization COVID-19 cognitive deficits at 1 year are global and associated with elevated brain injury markers and gray matter volume reduction - Nature Medicine

A national prospective study of patients requiring hospitalization for COVID-19 demonstrates global cognitive deficits at 1 year, associated with elevated brain injury markers and reduced gray matter volume.

www.nature.com

Here are his comments on the other study:

>>>The main findings, some of which are summarized in the graphic below, were:

1. Significant reduction in cognitive performance scores in all of the 8 case clusters compared with controls, especially executive function, worse among those by severity of Covid, abnormal mental health status of encephalopathy during the acute phase.
2. Substantial and persistent, ongoing increase in brain injury markers in the COVID and NeuroCOVID patients—NFL, Tau, GFAP and UCH-L1. Serum GFAP is expressed by astrocytes, which are key immune mediators, and supports the mechanism of injury is immune-mediated.
3. Gray matter atrophy, particularly seen in the volume of the anterior cingulate cortex.
4. Subjective symptoms of cognitive impairment were correlated with objective findings. In addition, depression was frequently reported.
5. By the Global Deviation from Expected (GDfE) score assessment, the cognitive deficits were equivalent to a 20-year acceleration (e.g. performance of a 50-year old at the 70-year old level)

Cognitive deficits were more likely in patients with a neurologic or psychiatric complication, older age, more comorbidities, There was some protection noted with higher educational level and in-hospital treatment with dexamethasone.<<<

This is somewhat interesting to me, but YMMV.

This is probably the most comprehensive study of mental decline post Covid.

Since this virus is known the affect the CNS it is not surprising some suffer cognitive deficits.

However the good news is that the decline is most frequent, and most severe, after infection with the earlier alpha variants. It is much less apparent with later variants.

As is typical with viral pandemics, natural selections favors infectivity over virulence and this has happened with the Covid viruses.

This is not to say that keeping immunization up to date is no longer required. Covid can still be a serious infection, land you in hospital or worse.

This has been a very unstable virus though, and it mutates faster than it is possible to update the vaccines, so technology has tended to be one step behind.

 

[Mr._Clark]

2 days after my RSV shot. Absolutely nothing, nada, not even a sore arm.

That's next on my list of jabs, but I'm going to give my shoulders a week or so off.

 

[davidscott]

That's next on my list of jabs, but I'm going to give my shoulders a week or so off.

I hear you. I went a week between my covid and flu shots together then the RSV. Hopefully all done with shots for another year.