What would you do?

[Serithin]

The right side has no wall, It all opens up into the dinning room.

 

[Serithin]

A Denon/Marantz running without DEQ sounds like poopoocaca (in my case anyhow)....the reason I ditched my Denon for a Pioneer.
Definitely play with DEQ. I didn't like the idea of electronic trickery either, but they must design them to use it.

Like others are saying, buying a big amp isn't going to get you what you want.

Why did they sound bad and if so wouldn't an external amp help them sound better? If not then why not? I actually listened to this AVR and it was the best sound for the money vs others like Yamaha in the Magnolia store. (For movies). Like I said before I am happy with the sound for movies (probably from the subs). I just think it lacks musical performance in stereo 2 channel only mode. TBH I feel like I am already... like 80% where I want to be. Part of me thinks a stereo amp will wow me . 75db is about average listening. But I can always tell that there is more in the tank. Loudness is not the problem.

 

[Serithin]

I will try these as soon as I get a day off. I'm crazy busy until Friday. I heard of REW and I could try that. The most effective thing I have tried was lowering the 2-3khz on the EQ. I could hear it getting sweeter as I adjusted it. I feel like room treatments and moving speakers makes sense. I think once I setup the panels I should hear SOME difference if the room is a major contributor. I just want that effortless SLAM sound that you get at a concert lol. The kind that wows the poop out of you. (hehe poop gets converted to poop) and I dont think room correction can get me that (Holy poop) sound. I could be wrong, il find out. Thanks everyone. Il get back here to report if DEQ, toeing the speakers, 8 large panels, or maybe even REW if i can get around to it, help out.

 

[Serithin]

The subs are phenomenal. I'm a little different and I like the boomy bass. (but not always) The angel is on top of the AVR to keep the cat off lol. To be clear, the over brightness is only apparent with music in which the EQ fixes it. I feel like neutral is about right for movies and I keep the tone turned off.

 

[Serithin]

Just a thought, how about running REW before doing anything @Serithin ?

I assume you've got a computer and the software is free. Buy a mic and take some base line measurements. The gang here will help you with the analysis. That way you won't be putting out a bag of money unnecessarily and still be guessing what's going on.

Just my 2 Bits.

Yeah I have a good pc. I have a few mics including the one that came with the AVR.

 

[Serithin]

@Serithin we may be guilty of putting the cart before the horse with the DEQ digression, in which I'm assuming that you've exhausted all iterations of positioning and placement options as Mr Boat is suggesting, and that the overall calibration is optimized, including the level it's optimized for. Loudness compensation eq, should you find it beneficial, is only for *after* all that is sorted out.

I did the 8 step Audessy room calibration and it definitely opened up the sound stage. Gave it more of that (speakers disappear) sound. The AVR also is Dirac ready but im not ready to fork up 300 bux for that just yet. For what its worth my HT living room sounds 100x better then my brick wall den lol. Thats an echoey mess. When I bought this I was 90% sure I would use it as a pre-amp eventually. It has fully customizable pre-amp modes where you switch between speaker and pre-amp as well as pre-amp only modes and I heard it makes a good pre-amp. Im starting to get tiroidal amp envy lol. I hear good things about them.

 

[Serithin]

With the heavy curtains, carpeting and two sofas, I don't see that being a very "lively" room. If the right side is a bare wall, panels may help reduce the first reflection on the right side, depending upon how much dampening you are getting from the curtains. While Boat mentioned toeing the speakers in, they look to be that way already from the photos. If the speakers sound too bright, you may need to do the opposite and toe the speakers out. They will sound brightest pointed right at you, but pointing them straight ahead perpendicular to the wall (which is toeing out relative to your seating position) will usually soften the highs. This of course depends upon how wide of a dispersion pattern the speakers have at higher frequencies.

Have to agree with the others though. I would be surprised if it was amp power that you are lacking. Try some of the other suggestions first and if you get a new amp use a retailer with a good return policy.

Haha I think we have the same subs! The SVS's shake my house. They rock! Ohh also.. In stereo mode my Eco bar reachis into the yellow way sooner then it does in 3.2 or 5.2 mode. When the subs dont take the load of the bass, I feel like I hit peak much sooner. I dont like pushing in too far into the yellow. I feel like it starts to run out of gas. But it does sound good loud ya know. Thats when I get the best musical warm sound with nice mid-bass. Just not for long periods of time. Also I once added my bowers 800 series bookshelf speakers (as speakers B) that kinda match the towers.. And It did not sound as good as just the towers. Another cool feature is that my AVR has 4 independent sub outputs

 

[Serithin]

 

[Trell]

Yeah I have a good pc. I have a few mics including the one that came with the AVR.

Unfortunately you can’t use the mic from your AVR for measurements.

 

[Trell]

DEQ does wierd things to the surround channels, but may work ok for stereo use, particularly if you want a meatier, more dynamic presentation. And it's free to try.

The annoying thing (for me) is the too much increased volume level of the surrounds. Not sure what other weird things you refer to.

 

[Trell]

Mostly movies. I would listen to music more it I had more power and warmth. I use audyssey room correction and I turn off DEQ as well as DVolume. The reference audyssey is an improvement. I don't like the idea of automated DEQ. I can try it but I never thought it would improve my sound. I will give it a try, thank you.

For DEQ there is a reference level offset to adjust to taste as well as content.

I use different presets (QuickSelect) on my Denon AVR to set this, so movies have offset 0, TV offset -10 and music -5.

 

[Serithin]

Unfortunately you can’t use the mic from your AVR for measurements.

I saw one that is recommender for Dirac for about 100 bux on Amazon.

 

[Serithin]

For DEQ there is a reference level offset to adjust to taste as well as content.

I use different presets (QuickSelect) on my Denon AVR to set this, so movies have offset 0, TV offset -10 and music -5.

I have 2 quick presets. One for Audessey ran and one without to keep my stereo mode neutral and unaffected by room correction. Just as a comparison.

 

[ski2xblack]

The annoying thing (for me) is the too much increased volume level of the surrounds. Not sure what other weird things you refer to.

That's exactly what I was referring to. Loudness compensation eq should be unobtrusive, DEQ for surround content is not.

...wouldn't an external amp help them sound better? If not then why not?

An amp would help if the Marantz cannot provide enough clean power to achieve your desired listening levels.

Remember, amps just amplify, they're not tone controls. That's the case for the onboard amps in your Marantz and any other power amp you've mentioned.

Now, with your appreciation of 'loud' and that your 703 S2 may have the challenging load typical of B&W speakers, I wouldn't rule out more powerful amplification, but let's not jump the gun. You're still in the "optimize what you already own" stage, not the "shell out more ducats in an under-informed, consumerism-driven shot in the dark, hoping it will cure my sonic ills" stage. It is prudent to thoroughly assess the problem before implementing costly, potentially unnecessary solutions.

You should try one of the online peak spl calculators to get an estimate of your actual power needs. Your Marantz is reasonably capable in terms of power, possibly more than adequate for your needs.

I am hearing that Denon sounds way worse then Marantz.

Don't believe the hype. You should forget all you may have heard about Marantz sounding "warmer", "more musical" etc.

 

[Serithin]

That's exactly what I was referring to. My attention is drawn to those boosted levels, and away from the song I was listening to. That's bad.

An amp would help if the Marantz cannot provide enough clean power to achieve your desired listening levels.

Remember, amps just amplify, they're not tone controls. That's the case for the onboard amps in your Marantz and any other power amp you've mentioned.

Now, with your appreciation of 'loud' and that your 703 S2 may have the challenging load typical of B&W speakers, I wouldn't rule out more powerful amplification, but let's not jump the gun. You're still in the "optimize what you already own" stage, not the "shell out more ducats in an under-informed, consumerism-driven shot in the dark, hoping it will cure my sonic ills" stage. It is prudent to thoroughly assess the problem before implementing costly, potentially unnecessary solutions.

You should try one of the online peak spl calculators to get an estimate of your actual power needs. Your Marantz is reasonably capable in terms of power, possibly more than adequate for your needs.


Don't believe the hype. You should forget all you may have heard about Marantz sounding "warmer", "more musical" etc.

Lol I thought I deleted that comment about Denon. I was basing the warmth of the marantz not on what I heard online but what I heard at the store. It was definitely warmer then the Yamaha that was priced comparably. I agree I will try all these things soon. Thanks M8

 

[MrBoat]

With the heavy curtains, carpeting and two sofas, I don't see that being a very "lively" room. If the right side is a bare wall, panels may help reduce the first reflection on the right side, depending upon how much dampening you are getting from the curtains. While Boat mentioned toeing the speakers in, they look to be that way already from the photos. If the speakers sound too bright, you may need to do the opposite and toe the speakers out. They will sound brightest pointed right at you, but pointing them straight ahead perpendicular to the wall (which is toeing out relative to your seating position) will usually soften the highs. This of course depends upon how wide of a dispersion pattern the speakers have at higher frequencies.

Have to agree with the others though. I would be surprised if it was amp power that you are lacking. Try some of the other suggestions first and if you get a new amp use a retailer with a good return policy.

It's just that what he describes that the system is missing (dynamics, celerity?), sounds like an unbalanced room, or placement. Brightness could be what amounts to a great portion of the audio population's aversion to neutral, revealing speakers vs. iffy recordings. I would not be all too surprised to find the OP is trying to get warm sound from classic rock from speakers that are essentially 'too good' for it. In that case, if you try to EQ the brightness down, then the dynamic (or however you want to describe what all is missing), can often go south with it.

I lived in a similarly situated house once, and I gave up on the living room and soon moved my hi-fi into the bedroom, which was instead, a 12' x 18' space that was worlds better. The only way music worked in that living room was when I had it point blank near field with me sitting no more than 5ft away from my speakers pointed straight at my ears and with me sitting on the floor with the speakers. I still listen near field for music. I'm the only one here who cares about high fidelity music so it works out. I still have a sweet spot at 9 and 13ft, but I look/feel ridiculous sitting there by myself in a lone chair.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Back in the days when I was using Denon for long time, I was a huge advocate for Audyssey DEQ Bypass L/R mode.

DEQ gave me awesome dynamic bass - possibly the best bass I've ever had. I didn't think DEQ boosted the treble or surrounds or anything else.

One thing I always did with DEQ was that I would increase all the Trim levels by 5dB. This way, my MASTER VOLUME would usually never go louder than -30.0.

So increasing the trims will also increase the magnitude of DEQ.

So if I were still using a Denon/Marantz today, I would absolutely be using Audyssey DEQ Bypass L/R.

 

[Eppie]

One thing we have not looked at is the impedance curve. Closest I could find was the 702 S2 from a Stereophile review. The 703 is likely very similar.

B&W is known for having demanding impedance curves, and the above graph is no exception. I have never seen the eco bar on my Denon X4800H go into the yellow, but maybe I have never had it as loud as @Serithin. Those speakers are a fairly demanding load, so a 200W / ch amp which can handle 4 ohm loads well, might help out in this instance? I'd be curious what the others think.

Note that the response is ragged around 5k. That might explain why the highs are not as pleasant as the op would like.

 

[Serithin]

The system does have dynamics and clarity.. Its just that, you can never have too much (Unless you live at a concert)

 

[ski2xblack]

There's a good chance you're right, eppie. B&W speakers seem engineered to force consumers into using stout amplification.