Can LFE be sent to large main floorstanding speakers if no subwoofer?

[Trebdp83]

What is the disconnect here exactly? Can some not understand the difference between LFE Distribution and LFE Level? Can some not understand the difference between a down mix of multichannel signals and simply playing multichannel signals in Stereo Sound Mode. Here it is, AGAIN, from Dolby.

When NO subwoofer is present, in this case specifically, the information in the LFE channel of multichannel signals is AUTOMATICALLY output from the Large speakers. There is NO reason AT ALL to be concerned with LFE Distribution when No subwoofer is in use because the LFE information from the LFE channel is already being sent to the Large Fronts. This is why the LFE Level, NOT LFE DISTRIBUTION, can still be adjusted in settings so that folks can back it off a bit because it is AUTOMATICALLY included in the signal being sent to the LARGE Front speakers when there is NO subwoofer in use. This is why Fronts are AUTOMATICALLY set to Large when NO subwoofer is assigned for use.

When AVP/AVRs support Dolby decoding, multichannel signals are NOT down mixed at the receiving end. Playing back a Dolby multichannel signal in Stereo sound mode DOES NOT result in a down mix of the signal to PCM 2.0. Dolby signal processing can expand two channel signals into MORE channels for output and can also contract multichannel signals into FEWER channels for output. The LFE of multichannel signals will be output from the subwoofer even when switching from a straight decode of Dolby 5.1/7.1 signals to the Stereo sound mode. LFE is NOT lost in this case. If NO subwoofer is used, the LFE will be sent to the Large Front speakers.

Now, if Denon/Marantz has changed things up and NO LFE signal is output to Large Fronts when NO subwoofer is in use, like has always been the case with older units, and one must now assign a subwoofer and then use LFE Distribution to get LFE to Large Fronts even when NOT using a subwoofer, then that is just f#%ked up. I don't believe that is the case but the manuals aren't exactly spelling that out for those that cannot wrap their heads around it all.

 

[PENG]

That is exactly what I said some posts ago. Also if he mixes down to stereo, then he will not get the LFE channel. Anyone who made a device like that, would quickly be contacted by Dolby's lawyers. Dolby fiercely defend their specifications and protocols. If he mixed down multichannel to 2.1 and faked the sub then I think he would likely get the LFE channel.

As I have pointed out, his best and safest solution is a sub or two, especially if he is watching movies and playing the audio through those speakers. The LFE of quite a few movies could easily spell death to his bass drivers.

Agreed, but realized that people who own those huge, and very deep bass capable subwoofer tend to think it is best to let them produce the deep bass instead of subwoofers. We have seen that movie many times before. If I remember right, you are, or were one of those who are very proud of deep bass capable towers haha...

 

[PENG]

What is the disconnect here exactly? Can some not understand the difference between LFE Distribution and LFE Level? Can some not understand the difference between a down mix of multichannel signals and simply playing multichannel signals in Stereo Sound Mode. Here it is, AGAIN, from Dolby.


View attachment 67375

When NO subwoofer is present, in this case specifically, the information in the LFE channel of multichannel signals is AUTOMATICALLY output from the Large speakers. There is NO reason AT ALL to be concerned with LFE Distribution when No subwoofer is in use because the LFE information from the LFE channel is already being sent to the Large Fronts. This is why the LFE Level, NOT LFE DISTRIBUTION, can still be adjusted in settings so that folks can back it off a bit because it is AUTOMATICALLY included in the signal being sent to the LARGE Front speakers when there is NO subwoofer in use. This is why Fronts are AUTOMATICALLY set to Large when NO subwoofer is assigned for use.

When AVP/AVRs support Dolby decoding, multichannel signals are NOT down mixed at the receiving end. Playing back a Dolby multichannel signal in Stereo sound mode DOES NOT result in a down mix of the signal to PCM 2.0. Dolby signal processing can expand two channel signals into MORE channels for output and can also contract multichannel signals into FEWER channels for output. The LFE of multichannel signals will be output from the subwoofer even when switching from a straight decode of Dolby 5.1/7.1 signals to the Stereo sound mode. LFE is NOT lost in this case. If NO subwoofer is used, the LFE will be sent to the Large Front speakers.

Now, if Denon/Marantz has changed things up and NO LFE signal is output to Large Fronts when NO subwoofer is in use, like has always been the case with older units, and one must now assign a subwoofer and then use LFE Distribution to get LFE to Large Fronts even when NOT using a subwoofer, then that is just f#%ked up. I don't believe that is the case but the manuals aren't exactly spelling that out for those that cannot wrap their heads around it all.

I think the "LFE Distribution" setting is for use in conjunction with those who prefer using the
"Directional bass" that D+M offers in the latest models, not that one has to do both, but it's there if they choose to. As I mentioned before, if the OP wants to have some control of the amount of LFE send to his towers, in his 5.0, that is, no sub configuration, he could try to still use the LFE Distribution setting by faking/cheating the AVR-X4800H, such as selection Yes to Sub, or actually hook a sub up (only if the AVR is smart enough to know there is no sub connected) but turn the volume right down, or,.... etc.

To me, that's too much to worry about, much simpler/better to use a sub or two and then just sit back and enjoy the music.

 

[Trebdp83]

The LFE Level setting is still functional for ANY Large speaker used to output LFE when a subwoofer is NOT used. There is no reason to cheat. The LFE Level setting can be turned down as needed. But, depending on the signal, some may find little or no difference in bass output from the Fronts when the LFE signal is sent to them and NO subwoofer is in use. This applies more to music discs than movies. Some soundtracks on new movie discs have gotten ridiculous and there is more bass in the Front channels than many realize. Some complain about too little bass on some movies while others complain about too much. But, how they have their speakers set up and adjusted has everything to do with it.

It's not a hard thing to figure out if one wants to hear an unmolested multichannel track in their system. If using a subwoofer or multiple subwoofers connected to a Denon/Marantz unit, set ALL speakers at Large and the Subwoofer at YES and set to LFE, and NOT set to LFE + Main. If using a new Denon/Marantz unit, turn OFF LFE Distribution. If using multiple subwoofers, set Subwoofer mode to Standard, NOT Directional. It should NOT matter with all of the other speakers set at Large BUT just do it.

Now, if anybody has a copy of the "Aquaman" 4K disc, put it on. Then, select the Direct Sound Mode while playing the Atmos/TrueHD or the DTS HD MA track. This effectively sets all channels to Large anyway and Bass Management is disabled if speakers were set at Small using a given crossover but better to make the settings before hand to be sure. The subwoofer or subwoofers in a multiple use case will ONLY receive and output audio from the LFE channel. The Large speakers will receive the full range signal included in their respective channels BUT will NOT receive any LFE signals. Go to chapter 12 of "Aquaman" and turn it up just a bit, do NOT go crazy here. Look at the woofers of the Front speakers and watch them dance. Yeah, it's stupid. Nobody with less than the most capable speakers should be playing that movie at high volume using Large Front speaker settings even when the LFE is going ONLY to the subwoofer. F#%k the whales, save the speakers and use a crossover and subwoofer!

Going back to @gene and the Yamaha CX-A5200 setup, I initially confused him wanting to get a signal to the subs when playing two channel signals with Fronts set to Large with wanting to get LFE signals from multichannel tracks to Large Fronts when using a subwoofer. "Extra Bass" would have worked with the former, but NOT the latter to get the low frequency signals of the Front Channels to the Subwoofers if they had been connected to the Subwoofer Pre Outs. But, it would NOT have sent LFE to the Front Large speakers when using the subwoofers connected to the Subwoofer Pre Outs as the Yamaha does NOT feature LFE Distribution. So, @gene used the unbalanced Front Pre Outs to connect the subwoofers and set Subwoofer to None in the Yamaha so that the LFE signal would be sent to the Front channels just as it should do with any AVP/AVR when the Subwoofer setting is None/No. So, because the Fronts were automatically set to Large with Subwoofer set to None and the subwoofers were connected to the unbalanced Front Pre outs, the Large Front speakers and the subwoofers ALL received LFE.

Yamaha CX-A5200:

 

[gene]

What the heck?

So, after all this discussion we've come to the conclusion that, yes, the Denon AVR-x4800h CAN send the LFE info to the main speakers even if you don't have a seperate sub, using the LFE Distribution control, as seen here on page 238.

View attachment 67347

So, I went to the settings to do this, and this is what I see. What the heck?

(click the attachment to see the message from the AVR. Can't get it to display as a picture)

Adjusts the amount of LFE signal sent to the full-range floor speakers. Can't be set when subwoofer is not used.

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All of the latest Denon and Marantz AVRs can send LFE to the mains even with a sub channel active thanks to me asking for that feature for years. It will ONLY send LFE to the mains IF:

• you set the mains to large
• You enable LFE routing to the mains
• You don't use DIRAC

None of the older Denon/Marantz or any major AVRs will allow LFE routing to the mains IF the sub channel is active.

 

[gene]

I was wondering whey that new setting: "LFE Distribution" is added to the new Denon and Marantz lines, now we know that's one of the things you bugged them for, including the pre out, and then individually pre out only by channels.

It seems that they listen to you a lot, so please keep this up, and in fact I would urge you to give them a list of doable and practical user wish list for their next line up, if too early for 2025, may be they can implement at least some of the requested features in the 2026 lineup.

Thanks in advance, I wanted to start collecting feedback from member users to make such a list, but you can do it a thousand times more effectively.

Things they can easily do it to further enhence bass management by adding back analog inputs to the AVR-XxxxH series for the center and independent subout 1 and subout 2. They have already done so to the FL and FR, at least for the NA models, but the center channel and subout 2 are important for people who want better bass control, and add external monoblock to the center channel that arguable could have more energy hence more power hungry than the FL and FR channels. That's just one example.

Such a list cold be sent to Yamaha, Anthem, NAD and Arcam as well and see who cares more about customers wishes, while keeping their prices competitive.

The next thing we need to fix is DIRAC. That company really pisses me off. They gaslight claiming the mains will pass fullrange bass. Then I show that you can't defeat the HPF even if the slider is set to 20Hz. Then they claim it's normal behavior for DLBC. The same issue carries over with Dirac ART. Dirac ART is not ready for prime time IMO. I will be doing an initial video on my findings and hope that it can improve over time. Right now, I don't use DIRAC in any of my systems, unfortunately.

 

[dcrandon]

The next thing we need to fix is DIRAC. That company really pisses me off. They gaslight claiming the mains will pass fullrange bass. Then I show that you can't defeat the HPF even if the slider is set to 20Hz. Then they claim it's normal behavior for DLBC. The same issue carries over with Dirac ART. Dirac ART is not ready for prime time IMO. I will be doing an initial video on my findings and hope that it can improve over time. Right now, I don't use DIRAC in any of my systems, unfortunately.

Anxious to hear your impressions of Dirac ART...this is the ONLY reason I sold my x4700h and bought an x4800h. Still waiting.

 

[Oddball]

The next thing we need to fix is DIRAC. That company really pisses me off. They gaslight claiming the mains will pass fullrange bass. Then I show that you can't defeat the HPF even if the slider is set to 20Hz. Then they claim it's normal behavior for DLBC. The same issue carries over with Dirac ART. Dirac ART is not ready for prime time IMO. I will be doing an initial video on my findings and hope that it can improve over time. Right now, I don't use DIRAC in any of my systems, unfortunately.

I can't wait for the video The way DLBC handles big tower systems always left some room for improvement. And the whole ART hype that has been built up in community without any actual and proper reviews seems to be somewhat overdone. If you are not using ART on your Storm, then not sure why other people with big towers and big subs should be looking forward to it. I guess it might still work well for the bookshelves and bunch of subs?

 

[dcrandon]

I can't wait for the video The way DLBC handles big tower systems always left some room for improvement. And the whole ART hype that has been built up in community without any actual and proper reviews seems to be somewhat overdone. If you are not using ART on your Storm, then not sure why other people with big towers and big subs should be looking forward to it. I guess it might still work well for the bookshelves and bunch of subs?

Well, the problem is DLBC "doesn't" handle large floorstanding speakers capable of good bass. It neueters them. It sets a crossover the removes the bass. DIRAC had plans for a DLBC 2.0 that would incorporate the large mains into the whole bass management system, but shelved the plans last year for some reason. The discussion of it is in their white papers.

 

[Oddball]

Well, the problem is DLBC "doesn't" handle large floorstanding speakers capable of good bass. It neueters them. It sets a crossover the removes the bass. DIRAC had plans for a DLBC 2.0 that would incorporate the large mains into the whole bass management system, but shelved the plans last year for some reason. The discussion of it is in their white papers.

Some people would argue that DLCB is the only way to go and that everything else (bass routing, LFE+Main, LFE distribution) will ruin the experience.

It is no question a big task to integrate the bed towers with subs, but that is what I would expect from them as a step to evolve to bigger setups. If ART is just DLBC+cancelations, does not have flexible (even overlapping) crossover, plus cuts off EQ at 20hz, then well, probably some more work to do for the bigger systems.

While we are at it, one of my requests would be to incorporate low dynamic range control that is frequency dependent. I tend to enjoy the preference vs the reference and sometimes what was intended by the mix is not really how I would like it to be balanced.

 

[TLS Guy]

Some people would argue that DLCB is the only way to go and that everything else (bass routing, LFE+Main, LFE distribution) will ruin the experience.

It is no question a big task to integrate the bed towers with subs, but that is what I would expect from them as a step to evolve to bigger setups. If ART is just DLBC+cancelations, does not have flexible (even overlapping) crossover, plus cuts off EQ at 20hz, then well, probably some more work to do for the bigger systems.

While we are at it, one of my requests would be to incorporate low dynamic range control that is frequency dependent. I tend to enjoy the preference vs the reference and sometimes what was intended by the mix is not really how I would like it to be balanced.

That is absolute nonsense. There are some designs that absolutely require LFE + main. This is especially true of integrated designs like mine, where you want to keep to minimal phase shift designs. Some of us don't believe in plonking sub boxes all round the room and I am one of them.
So my speakers are designed for LFE + main, and this enables me to have a minimal phase aberration and also make the baffle step compensation adjustable to room, and especially the position in the room.

This design enables me not to require Audyssey or Dirac. In fact except for setting volumes and delays to the speakers, Audyssey markedly downgrades my system.

With careful attention to phase response and the use of low Q TL designs, I have extremely accurate and deep bass. It is also highly efficient so I don't need monstrous power in the last octave.

So, I would never ever consider using DIRAC.

 

[Oddball]

That is absolute nonsense. There are some designs that absolutely require LFE + main. This is especially true of integrated designs like mine, where you want to keep to minimal phase shift designs. Some of us don't believe in plonking sub boxes all round the room and I am one of them.
So my speakers are designed for LFE + main, and this enables me to have a minimal phase aberration and also make the baffle step compensation adjustable to room, and especially the position in the room.

This design enables me not to require Audyssey or Dirac. In fact except for setting volumes and delays to the speakers, Audyssey markedly downgrades my system.

With careful attention to phase response and the use of low Q TL designs, I have extremely accurate and deep bass. It is also highly efficient so I don't need monstrous power in the last octave.

So, I would never ever consider using DIRAC.

As a novice, I am trying to keep my opinions tamed down a bit as they really don't matter. The comment about the DLBC is probably AVS consensus, which on the other side is a probably a wrong answer, at least by my experience.But try to go out there and argue your case .

I run 2 tower systems in 2 different HTs. One is really simple and actually nothing wrong with it with simple Audy. The other one is much more complex but in the setup phase, so not sure what will be required to make it work. Based on my experiences with other systems, I do not prefer of want DLBC to manage it, so don't even have a license for Dirac. It will either be Audy (like in simple system) or REW filters with or without Audy for the more complex system. So I am with you all the way...

 

[dcrandon]

The next thing we need to fix is DIRAC. That company really pisses me off. They gaslight claiming the mains will pass fullrange bass. Then I show that you can't defeat the HPF even if the slider is set to 20Hz. Then they claim it's normal behavior for DLBC. The same issue carries over with Dirac ART. Dirac ART is not ready for prime time IMO. I will be doing an initial video on my findings and hope that it can improve over time. Right now, I don't use DIRAC in any of my systems, unfortunately.

Gene, you are probably aware that Dirac LBC is problematic for a 5.0 system—a system with large floor-standing speakers that can handle bass but no subwoofers. Considering that you can think of a large floor-standing speaker as simply a single box with a sub and high freq drivers, it's frustrating.

Apparently, Dirac originally had plans to incorporate large floor-standing speakers with DLBC but abandoned them. The attached white paper by Dirac mentions this at the very end. Interestingly, the current white paper has this section deleted, but it's still in the table of contents. The original white paper is still on Storm Audio's website, though.

Do you have any comments on why Dirac abandoned this idea?

https://www.stormaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Bass-Control-in-Live_20200417.pdf

Upcoming Bass Control 2.0

Since a pair of full-range speakers can produce frequencies below 100 Hz
contribute to the optimization by including them into the bass control design.
As seen in section Handling of multiple sub-woofers, by adjusting levels, delays,
and phase responses of the individual sub-woofers, it is possible to minimize
the variation between the measurement points and get a more unified listening
area. Therefore, in the upcoming Bass Control 2.0 the user will have the ability
to include their full-range speakers into the Bass Control optimization. From
the optimization design perspective, a full-range speaker will be seen as both a
small-range speaker and a sub-woofer.

 

[ban25]

If you're running a 5.0 system, then there is absolutely no need for DLBC at all. If you have multiple subwoofers, that's where DLBC can deliver very good results, as I have posted from measurements of my own system in other threads. And yes, you can set the DLBC crossover individually per speaker group (one for the fronts, one for the center, one for the surrounds, one for the heights, etc.).

 

[gene]

Well, the problem is DLBC "doesn't" handle large floorstanding speakers capable of good bass. It neueters them. It sets a crossover the removes the bass. DIRAC had plans for a DLBC 2.0 that would incorporate the large mains into the whole bass management system, but shelved the plans last year for some reason. The discussion of it is in their white papers.

yea this is tragic but I'm hoping they will change this based on my meetings I've been having with them. I have a call with Dirac this week to discuss bass and hopefully come up with a viable plan for ART in my system.

 

[PENG]

yea this is tragic but I'm hoping they will change this based on my meetings I've been having with them. I have a call with Dirac this week to discuss bass and hopefully come up with a viable plan for ART in my system.

I hope they will listen to you and make necessary changes. However, the OP's point seems not relevant to this, as per @ban25 's post#94. That full range speakers probably don't/won't need BC as without BC, DL can already optimize them. For ART, that's a different story, and again, I hope you can convince them of the changes, that will benefit many users. DL needs to do more to meet their customers requirements, they are really expensive, compared to other RC systems (except Trinnov's I guess...).

 

[Slykingoh]

What makes you think the LF response in those speakers can handle the standard LF and the LFE info? All new receivers sum the output if none is chosen but this is a poor choice. Have you measured those loudspeakers?


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