Can LFE be sent to large main floorstanding speakers if no subwoofer?

[dcrandon]

So, I confused here.

Confusion over LFE with only LARGE floor standing main speakers.

I have a Denon AVR-x4800h. I have large floor standing main speakers capable of reproducing low bass at high volume with low distortion.

I do not have a subwoofer.

I was under the impression that if I have the fronts set to LARGE and tell the Denon I do not have a sub, the LFE channel would be sent to the large main speakers.

I am now told by some that this is incorrect. That the only way to get an LFE signal is actually to have a sub. That there is no setting that would allow the LFE channel to be sent to the large main speakers. None. Therefore, I am missing the LFE signal.

Is this correct? And, if not, if there is a way to have LFE sent to the main speakers if I don't have a sub, can you show me whear in the manual or provide some other sort of "proof" or other info.

Thank you.

 

[TLS Guy]

So, I confused here.

Confusion over LFE with only LARGE floor standing main speakers.

I have a Denon AVR-x4800h. I have large floor standing main speakers capable of reproducing low bass at high volume with low distortion.

I do not have a subwoofer.

I was under the impression that if I have the fronts set to LARGE and tell the Denon I do not have a sub, the LFE channel would be sent to the large main speakers.

I am now told by some that this is incorrect. That the only way to get an LFE signal is actually to have a sub. That there is no setting that would allow the LFE channel to be sent to the large main speakers. None. Therefore, I am missing the LFE signal.

Is this correct? And, if not, if there is a way to have LFE sent to the main speakers if I don't have a sub, can you show me whear in the manual or provide some other sort of "proof" or other info.

Thank you.

There is, but it is very complicated.

You would need to convert your speakers to active, on the bass speaker crossover at least. Then you need a buffer amp, to combine the LF output from the electronic crossover via a buffer amp and mixer circuit. That is what I do, but I design and build my own systems and speakers. I also do not use a receiver, but an AVP and I use the unbalanced and balanced line outs in this system. So I doubt for you this is possible.

What speakers are we talking about here?

 

[PENG]

So, I confused here.

Confusion over LFE with only LARGE floor standing main speakers.

I have a Denon AVR-x4800h. I have large floor standing main speakers capable of reproducing low bass at high volume with low distortion.

I do not have a subwoofer.

I was under the impression that if I have the fronts set to LARGE and tell the Denon I do not have a sub, the LFE channel would be sent to the large main speakers.

For the older models, you are correct, that's basically how they work.

I am now told by some that this is incorrect. That the only way to get an LFE signal is actually to have a sub. That there is no setting that would allow the LFE channel to be sent to the large main speakers. None. Therefore, I am missing the LFE signal.

Beware of the internet, but you obviously know that already, that's why you are post here for other opinions.

Is this correct? And, if not, if there is a way to have LFE sent to the main speakers if I don't have a sub, can you show me whear in the manual or provide some other sort of "proof" or other info.

Whoever told you that probably don't know enough about how D+M's bass management work so no, it isn't correct. There is in fact a way to do it, and the AVR-X4800H works a little different than it's predecessors. It has a LFE distribution feature that let you have a little more control.

Below is in the owner's manual:

 

[PENG]

There is, but it is very complicated.

You would need to convert your speakers to active, on the bass speaker crossover at least. Then you need a buffer amp, to combine the LF output from the electronic crossover via a buffer amp and mixer circuit. That is what I do, but I design and build my own systems and speakers. I also do not use a receiver, but an AVP and I use the unbalanced and balanced line outs in this system. So I doubt for you this is possible.

What speakers are we talking about here?

I think you should read the manual of your AV7705, and more carefully this time.

 

[dcrandon]

There is, but it is very complicated.

You would need to convert your speakers to active, on the bass speaker crossover at least. Then you need a buffer amp, to combine the LF output from the electronic crossover via a buffer amp and mixer circuit. That is what I do, but I design and build my own systems and speakers. I also do not use a receiver, but an AVP and I use the unbalanced and balanced line outs in this system. So I doubt for you this is possible.

What speakers are we talking about here?

Well, not the answer I was hoping for. I know that haveing large main speakers capable of reproducing the LFE channel is rare, but why deny me?

The speaker I have are VMPS Supertower III. There were available as a kit. My first VMPS speakers, the Supertower, I built from a kit in 1980.

VMPS Supertower III:

 

[dcrandon]

For the older models, you are correct, that's basically how they work.



Beware of the internet, but you obviously know that already, that's why you are post here for other opinions.



Whoever told you that probably don't know enough about how D+M's bass management work so no, it isn't correct. There is in fact a way to do it, and the AVR-X4800H works a little different than it's predecessors. It has a LFE distribution feature that let you have a little more control.

Below is in the owner's manual:
View attachment 67235

Thanks Peng...and this will work when the subwoofer setting is set to OFF? This setting is not just for the Main+LFE ON setting?

 

[TLS Guy]

There is, but it is very complicated.

You would need to convert your speakers to active, on the bass speaker crossover at least. Then you need a buffer amp, to combine the LF output from the electronic crossover via a buffer amp and mixer circuit. That is what I do, but I design and build my own systems and speakers. I also do not use a receiver, but an AVP and I use the unbalanced and balanced line outs in this system. So I doubt for you this is possible.

What speakers are we talking about here?

None of my pre/pros have that setting. The best you could do is say there is a sub when there is not and set main cross over to none, and set the LFE + Main that would not send the entire LFE signal to the main speakers, just some of it.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think you should read the manual of your AV7705, and more carefully this time.

None of my pre/pros have that setting. The best you could do is say there is a sub when there is not and set main cross over to none, and set the LFE + Main that would not send the entire LFE signal to the main speakers, just some of it.

I had not read my manual for 4 ad half years. I am a set up right and forget kind of guy. I can not find that you can adjust the level of the LFE signal sent to the main speakers. So that unit has a setting none of my three Marantz AVPs have.

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, not the answer I was hoping for. I know that haveing large main speakers capable of reproducing the LFE channel is rare, but why deny me?

The speaker I have are VMPS Supertower III. There were available as a kit. My first VMPS speakers, the Supertower, I built from a kit in 1980.

VMPS Supertower III:



View attachment 67237

I note the bass section of those speakers is active, So in that case there would be a distinct advantage in connecting and amp connected to the preout and a mixer circuit between the preout and the sub out. That would be a better arrangement. Those speakers are set up so this could be done.
The speakers already have an active crossover at 200 Hz.

So your absolute best solution is to Bi-amp those speakers with a two channel amp, and set the crossover in the receiver to 200 Hz. That would clean things up a lot. You would connect the sub outs to that amp. Set the receiver to LFE + main and crossover to 200 Hz and sub yes for left and right speakers.

 

[PENG]

Thanks Peng...and this will work when the subwoofer setting is set to OFF? This setting is not just for the Main+LFE ON setting?

Yes, FL and FR to large, or full range if that's what they are call now, and sub to none.

LFE+MAIN is a different setting, you can't/shouldn't use that one if you don't want to use subs.

 

[lovinthehd]

@PENG didn't know of this feature in these Denon Xx800 series avrs. Interesting. I double checked my 4700, not there.

 

[Kingnoob]

Well, not the answer I was hoping for. I know that haveing large main speakers capable of reproducing the LFE channel is rare, but why deny me?

The speaker I have are VMPS Supertower III. There were available as a kit. My first VMPS speakers, the Supertower, I built from a kit in 1980.

VMPS Supertower III:



View attachment 67237

Two built in subs ? Any reason there not active ? I see why you want lfe . Very nice speakers !!!!

 

[PENG]

@PENG didn't know of this feature in these Denon Xx800 series avrs. Interesting. I double checked my 4700, not there.

I should have been clear, for the older models (before the Xx800h), and Cinema x0, the manuals would simply say something like:

and

So, the fact that when the mains are set to "large" and sub set to "no/none", the LFE signal will be included in the mains was not explicitly mentioned in the manuals.

In the current models, since they added the "distribution" setting, they had to make it clearer (I guess...).

This particular questions had been asked on forums many times, I presume, and I remember speaker manufacturers such as SVS and Polk Audio, who make satellite/subwoofer systems that they often would recommend their users to set those tiny satellite mains to "large", if the speaker (high level) inputs are used, in order not to lose the LFE channel information.

Anyway, the OP's question is about the X4800H, so he has the clear affirmative answers to his questions, based on the info in the Owner's manual.

Here's an example, from Polk's:

All surround receivers allow you to “customize” their performance depending on the size of your speakers. Refer to the owner's manual of your
receiver or surround processor to learn how this is done. To get the best performance from small “satellite/subwoofer” type systems, use the
following settings with the above hook-up method:
Front speakers -- set to “large”
Center speaker -- set to “normal” or “small”
Surround speakers -- set to “small”
Subwoofer -- set to “OFF” or “none.” (We know. Doesn’t make sense, right? Your system obviously has a subwoofer. But really truly, this is the
correct setting for the recommended hook-up method. By setting the front left and right speakers to “Large” and routing them through the subwoofer
as instructed above, you deliver a full range signal to the subwoofer’s low pass filter. The low pass filter takes the low frequencies and
passes the rest on to the front speakers, for perfect sub/sat blending.)

 

[PENG]

None of my pre/pros have that setting. The best you could do is say there is a sub when there is not and set main cross over to none, and set the LFE + Main that would not send the entire LFE signal to the main speakers, just some of it.

I had not read my manual for 4 ad half years. I am a set up right and forget kind of guy. I can not find that you can adjust the level of the LFE signal sent to the main speakers. So that unit has a setting none of my three Marantz AVPs have.

Sorry I wasn't clear, in the manuals of those previous year models including the AV7705, it will work the same way as the current models, but without the distribution settings. The manuals do cover the "large" setting but it does not explicitly mentioned the LFE info will be routed to the mains set to "large", but it will be as long as you set the subwoofer to no, or none whatever it's called. For the OP's X4800H, it is clear, explicit as quoted from the manual.

 

[PENG]

Two built in subs ? Any reason there not active ? I see why you want lfe . Very nice speakers !!!!

I think the "subwoofers" are in fact active.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think the "subwoofers" are in fact active.

They are.

 

[lovinthehd]

I should have been clear, for the older models (before the Xx800h), and Cinema x0, the manuals would simply say something like:

View attachment 67247

and

View attachment 67248

So, the fact that when the mains are set to "large" and sub set to "no/none", the LFE signal will be included in the mains was not explicitly mentioned in the manuals.

In the current models, since they added the "distribution" setting, they had to make it clearer (I guess...).

This particular questions had been asked on forums many times, I presume, and I remember speaker manufacturers such as SVS and Polk Audio, who make satellite/subwoofer systems that they often would recommend their users to set those tiny satellite mains to "large", if the speaker (high level) inputs are used, in order not to lose the LFE channel information.

Anyway, the OP's question is about the X4800H, so he has the clear affirmative answers to his questions, based on the info in the Owner's manual.

Here's an example, from Polk's:

Been a while since I setup without a sub but have seen it mentioned quite a few times you need a sub for LFE routing. For the possible additional spl and extension requirements "adequately" could be interesting, might have to do some experimentation. It has been discussed in a coupla places where the assumption is you need a sub for LFE. Is it only the L/R or L/R and Center channels that get the LFE? Or is it any speaker set to large and that wasn't mentioned in manuals either?

 

[TLS Guy]

Been a while since I setup without a sub but have seen it mentioned quite a few times you need a sub for LFE routing. For the possible additional spl and extension requirements "adequately" could be interesting, might have to do some experimentation. It has been discussed in a coupla places where the assumption is you need a sub for LFE. Is it only the L/R or L/R and Center channels that get the LFE? Or is it any speaker set to large and that wasn't mentioned in manuals either?

That is interesting. The instructions in my AVP manuals are vague. Nowhere does it say that the LFE will go to any speakers if you you click no so sub and check no crossovers. I would have thought that they would not send the LFE signal under those circumstances, less damage be done to the connected speakers.

I have never set up any of my AVPs, without using the sub outputs. I just assumed the default would be not to send the LFE signal unless a sub was entered in the set up menu.

 

[PENG]

Been a while since I setup without a sub but have seen it mentioned quite a few times you need a sub for LFE routing. For the possible additional spl and extension requirements "adequately" could be interesting, might have to do some experimentation. It has been discussed in a coupla places where the assumption is you need a sub for LFE. Is it only the L/R or L/R and Center channels that get the LFE? Or is it any speaker set to large and that wasn't mentioned in manuals either?

As far as I know, the FL and FR will get the LFE signal if set to large and sub to no/none.

I don't think the C can get it but not 100% sure on that, will have to ask D or M.

 

[lovinthehd]

As far as I know, the FL and FR will get the LFE signal if set to large and sub to no/none.

I don't think the C can get it but not 100% sure on that will have to ask D or M.

Was thinking of asking them myself, couldn't find any mention of it at all even in my older 3808 manual. Maybe I'll try experimenting with Edge of Tomorrow What I'm wondering if there's some sort of automatic level reduction as I'd think that extra 10dB of low frequency information could be stressful on speakers....