Denon X3800H / Classe Audio CA-5200 - Ground Loop through RCA-cables?

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hmm, interesting. At first look, it feels a bit out of my comfort level. Am I correct in thinking I would need to open up the XLR connector, cut the Pin 1 wire and then solder the resistor and capacitor in parallel, and then resolder to Pin 1?

What is the reason this should be done compared to just detaching the Pin 1 wire? Do you now think detaching the Pin 1 wire is not a suitable solution anymore?
Yes, you would have to open up the connector to do it. Not in parallel, but to solder it exactly as shown, that is, with the capacitor/resistor in series between pin 1 and the casing/"ground".

If the noise is acceptably low from your listening position, then you could order the cable from Benchmark. Coming from the US it probably takes a week. The problem is, you would have to email them about making you a longer cable than 3 feet and the price could be quite high.

It should work better, based on their description:

Benchmark RCA to XLRM Adapter Cable for Analog Audio - pin 3 to RCA sh - Benchmark Media Systems

Special Wiring to Reduce Hum and Interference
  • Back-referenced audio ground - for common-mode rejection
  • Star-quad conductors - for magnetic immunity
  • Dedicated shield connection - for immunity to ground loop problems
  • RCA center pin to star-quad + to XLR pin 2
  • RCA ring to star-quad - to XLR pin 3
  • RCA ring to shield braid to XLR pin 1
How it Works
This adapter cable extends balanced wiring to the RCA connector using star-quad wire to maximize the effectiveness of the balanced input: One half of the star-quad ties Pin 3 of the XLR to the shield of the RCA connector. The other half of the star-quad ties pin 2 of the XLR to the center pin on the RCA. The braided shield ties pin 1 of the XLR to the shield of the RCA.

Using this special wiring, a ground-loop between the two audio devices will produce a current in the braided shield, but not in the audio signal lines. This keeps ground-loop currents out of the critical signal lines and greatly reduces the potential for interference. The separate connection from the RCA ground to pin 1 of the XLR provides a dedicated path for the audio ground reference. This wiring leverages the common-mode rejection of the balanced XLR input to reduce conducted interference.

To reduce magnetic interference, the audio signal is carried on two twisted pairs arranged in a star-quad configuration. This star-quad configuration provides immunity to hum-inducing magnetic fields produced by nearby electronic devices.

This cable provides the best method for directly interfacing an unbalanced output to a balanced input. Do not confuse this cable with similar-looking RCA to XLR cables and adapters!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hmm, interesting. At first look, it feels a bit out of my comfort level. Am I correct in thinking I would need to open up the XLR connector, cut the Pin 1 wire and then solder the resistor and capacitor in parallel, and then resolder to Pin 1?

What is the reason this should be done compared to just detaching the Pin 1 wire? Do you now think detaching the Pin 1 wire is not a suitable solution anymore?
Another good alternative is:

Fosi Audio ZA3 Balanced Stereo Amplifier Home Audio 2CH Mono Amp with

3 of those will be as powerful as your CA-5200. It is new, but I have two of their V3:
Fosi Audio V3 300W x2 2 Channel Hi-Fi Stereo Audio Amplifier, or pay more if you buy from Amazon that obviously has better return policy.

Only one of such an amp will get you all the power you need to your closest surround/height channel.

I have compared them by ear/brain as well as by measurements, they do sound as good as just about anything regardless of cost, in a double blind test for sure. If sighted then, you will be biased and say to yourself it is crazy to suggest a $89 amp can "sound" as good as a $5,000 amp.

I have a total of 4 such little amps now and like them a lot. Can't see myself getting another amp like Bryston and Parasound that I had until not long ago.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hmm, interesting. At first look, it feels a bit out of my comfort level. Am I correct in thinking I would need to open up the XLR connector, cut the Pin 1 wire and then solder the resistor and capacitor in parallel, and then resolder to Pin 1?

What is the reason this should be done compared to just detaching the Pin 1 wire? Do you now think detaching the Pin 1 wire is not a suitable solution anymore?
I have to ask you one more question. Does that AVR have a grounded power plug or not? I suspect it does. If it does cutting the connection from the case to Pin 1 carries virtually no risk of electric shock even in the event of a most unlikely fault. I think with persistence we will solve your problem, and you don't have to worry about changing amps.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I have to ask you one more question. Does that AVR have a grounded power plug or not? I suspect it does. If it does cutting the connection from the case to Pin 1 carries virtually no risk of electric shock even in the event of a most unlikely fault. I think with persistence we will solve your problem, and you don't have to worry about changing amps.
Agreed he has no need to change amps, I only suggested the low cost solution because he doesn't seem to want to open up the connector and do some soldering that you suggested lol... And he wouldn't spend more to order the Benchmark cable either, though that cable would likely cost him as much as the amp I suggested, so I understand whey he's reluctant.

I have never seen a D+M AVRs that has 3-prong grounded plug. They all look like the following:

1704636917488.png
 
Hobolicious

Hobolicious

Junior Audioholic
I have to ask you one more question. Does that AVR have a grounded power plug or not? I suspect it does. If it does cutting the connection from the case to Pin 1 carries virtually no risk of electric shock even in the event of a most unlikely fault. I think with persistence we will solve your problem, and you don't have to worry about changing amps.
Actually, the plug of the Denon X3800H does not seem to be grounded:

IMG_2414.jpeg


However, the power plug of the Classe Audio CA-5200 does:

IMG_2416.jpeg
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Actually, the plug of the Denon X3800H does not seem to be grounded:

View attachment 65050

However, the power plug of the Classe Audio CA-5200 does:

View attachment 65051
I would just cut the ground. If the Denon should develop a fault where the case became live, then the Classe would not ground it, and blow the panel fuse or breaker.

However, if that fault occurred with the Denon not connected to any grounded device, the whole works would become live. So if you just cut that ground, you are no worse off than just using the Denon alone in terms of safety.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Hmm, interesting. At first look, it feels a bit out of my comfort level. Am I correct in thinking I would need to open up the XLR connector, cut the Pin 1 wire and then solder the resistor and capacitor in parallel, and then resolder to Pin 1?

What is the reason this should be done compared to just detaching the Pin 1 wire? Do you now think detaching the Pin 1 wire is not a suitable solution anymore?
These have Rean XLR ends, which are similar to Neutrik- the red and black at the back of the plug is a strain relief and you should be able to unscrew the black collar ahead of those, then you'll be able to slide the part with the pins out of the metal shell. The pin numbers should be visible from the outside, next to each pin. The diagram shows how the wires should be assigned to the pins- clip the wire for Pin 1 and bend it back on itself, then reassemble the XLR plugs.

1704638133474.png
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Cutting the ground goes against safety, don't do it!
If even you do, like tying the chassis together, as I repeated before, rarely eliminated ground loop caused hum anyway, it is hard to do without knowing how everything's wired internally. That kind of solution is hit and miss, even if we ignore safety practice.

Cutting the XLR connector's pin 1 to the shield/casing would be the lesser of the two evil, if the OP wants to try, can easily solder it back after.

Or bite the bullet and get an active unbalanced to balanced converter TLSGuy linked before, for $89, it is worth a try, and it should work.
 
Hobolicious

Hobolicious

Junior Audioholic
These have Rean XLR ends, which are similar to Neutrik- the red and black at the back of the plug is a strain relief and you should be able to unscrew the black collar ahead of those, then you'll be able to slide the part with the pins out of the metal shell. The pin numbers should be visible from the outside, next to each pin. The diagram shows how the wires should be assigned to the pins- clip the wire for Pin 1 and bend it back on itself, then reassemble the XLR plugs.

View attachment 65052
So if I understand you correctly you are saying to «tuck» the Pin 1 within the connector instead of cutting the Pin 1 wire (making it easily reversible without having to resolder)?
 
Hobolicious

Hobolicious

Junior Audioholic
Have you tried reversing the Denon power cord at the outlet? I would try that.
Yeah, I did try this in all four combinations for the two units without any success. I have however not tried it again since moving from RCA-RCA to RCA-XLR.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
So if I understand you correctly you are saying to «tuck» the Pin 1 within the connector instead of cutting the Pin 1 wire (making it easily reversible without having to resolder)?
You would need to cut the wire to Pin 1 but unsoldering it and taping the end is a better solution because that wouldn't shorten it.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Cutting the ground goes against safety, don't do it!
If even you do, like tying the chassis together, as I repeated before, rarely eliminated ground loop caused hum anyway, it is hard to do without knowing how everything's wired internally. That kind of solution is hit and miss, even if we ignore safety practice.

Cutting the XLR connector's pin 1 to the shield/casing would be the lesser of the two evil, if the OP wants to try, can easily solder it back after.

Or bite the bullet and get an active unbalanced to balanced converter TLSGuy linked before, for $89, it is worth a try, and it should work.
We have to take a step back here and use applied logic, in this difficult case. Our difficulty basically arises from living in different jurisdictions. That is the root cause of our difficulty and why we are struggling with this case.

This is what we know.

The Denon by itself does not hum.

The Classe by itself does not hum.

In Norway, voltage is 230 volts with a neutral and ground. The wall sockets are polarized, but the plugs to devices are not, and are reversible. The sockets are grounded, but devices may be or not.

The Denon does not have a grounding lead in the AC plug, but the Classe does.

Now if the the Denon and Classe have their chassis connected in any way, there is hum. This occurs with no other devices connected and driven from the mains AC.

The core of the puzzle is that it is acting like a ground loop, but where is the loop?

I will tell you where the loop is. It is at the bonding of neutrals and ground at his electrical panel.

With the AC plugs being reversible there is a huge excess of neutral gouging. I have encountered similar situations in years gone by when neutrals were allowed to be daisy chained all over the place, and wall sockets were not polarized. I think most of these situations have been updated and remedied in the US.

So, his ONLY solution is to cut that ground to pin 1 to the xlr body.

Now that has NOT increased the hazard in this case, because the Denon will be connected as intended and protected with so called double insulation. The Classe will be grounded as intended. However, he won't have his hum. The hazard of using the equipment has not changed as everything will be connected AS designed.

I have to comment that electrical codes in continental Europe are just awful. When you leave the port of Dover and arrive in Calais, you move from a country with the highest electrical code standards, probably in the world, and arrive where there is basically electrical mayhem.

I could tell you a few horror stories on my visits to Europe concerning electrical issues, the worst of which befell us in Cortina D'ampere, Italy.
 
ban25

ban25

Audioholic
We have to take a step back here and use applied logic, in this difficult case. Our difficulty basically arises from living in different jurisdictions. That is the root cause of our difficulty and why we are struggling with this case.

This is what we know.

The Denon by itself does not hum.

The Classe by itself does not hum.

In Norway, voltage is 230 volts with a neutral and ground. The wall sockets are polarized, but the plugs to devices are not, and are reversible. The sockets are grounded, but devices may be or not.

The Denon does not have a grounding lead in the AC plug, but the Classe does.

Now if the the Denon and Classe have their chassis connected in any way, there is hum. This occurs with no other devices connected and driven from the mains AC.

The core of the puzzle is that it is acting like a ground loop, but where is the loop?

I will tell you where the loop is. It is at the bonding of neutrals and ground at his electrical panel.

With the AC plugs being reversible there is a huge excess of neutral gouging. I have encountered similar situations in years gone by when neutrals were allowed to be daisy chained all over the place, and wall sockets were not polarized. I think most of these situations have been updated and remedied in the US.

So, his ONLY solution is to cut that ground to pin 1 to the xlr body.

Now that has NOT increased the hazard in this case, because the Denon will be connected as intended and protected with so called double insulation. The Classe will be grounded as intended. However, he won't have his hum. The hazard of using the equipment has not changed as everything will be connected AS designed.

I have to comment that electrical codes in continental Europe are just awful. When you leave the port of Dover and arrive in Calais, you move from a country with the highest electrical code standards, probably in the world, and arrive where there is basically electrical mayhem.

I could tell you a few horror stories on my visits to Europe concerning electrical issues, the worst of which befell us in Cortina D'ampere, Italy.
Agreed. This is the order I would try things in as the OP:

1. Since you have an extra RCA->XLR cable anyway, go ahead and cut the pin 1 lead and tape it off with electrical tape. If it eliminates hum completely, you have your solution and can do it to the rest of your RCA->XLR cables. If it doesn't work, no real loss.
2. How bad is the hum at the main listening position and at your preferred listening level with the current set of cables and chassis grounding? If it's not audible, you can just leave it and enjoy your system.
3. If it is still audible or if it bothers you, then order the Fosi amp as PENG suggested. Aside from solving your issue, it also comes in a smaller footprint and is substantially more efficient than the Classe it would replace. Then you can sell the Classe and probably make a net profit (and let the next guy deal with the hum :D).
 
Hobolicious

Hobolicious

Junior Audioholic
You would need to cut the wire to Pin 1 but unsoldering it and taping the end is a better solution because that wouldn't shorten it.
So, his ONLY solution is to cut that ground to pin 1 to the xlr body.

Now that has NOT increased the hazard in this case, because the Denon will be connected as intended and protected with so called double insulation. The Classe will be grounded as intended. However, he won't have his hum. The hazard of using the equipment has not changed as everything will be connected AS designed.
1. Since you have an extra RCA->XLR cable anyway, go ahead and cut the pin 1 lead and tape it off with electrical tape. If it eliminates hum completely, you have your solution and can do it to the rest of your RCA->XLR cables. If it doesn't work, no real loss.
Just so I am certain. On top of cutting the wire to Pin1 (and using electrical tape to cover the cut exposed wire) I also have to desolder and remove the metal pin completely before running the RCA-XLR cable between the two units?
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Just so I am certain. On top of cutting the wire to Pin1 (and using electrical tape to cover the cut exposed wire) I also have to unsolder and remove the metal pin completely before running the RCA-XLR cable between the two units?
No! Just cut the connection to the case of the plug, that should do the trick.
 
Hobolicious

Hobolicious

Junior Audioholic
No! Just cut the connection to the case of the plug, that should do the trick.
Hmm, I now did this. Connected the RCA-XLR cable (without having removed the metal pin, only cutting the wire and putting electrical tape over the exposed wire). However, when turning on the Denon and Classe I got a pretty heavy sound on the connected speaker (front right speaker) so I turned off the units as soon as that happened to not damage the speaker.

Do you know what might have caused this?
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hmm, I now did this. Connected the RCA-XLR cable (without having removed the metal pin, only cutting the wire and putting electrical tape over the exposed wire). However, when turning on the Denon and Classe I got a pretty heavy sound on the connected speaker (front right speaker) so I turned off the units as soon as that happened to not damage the speaker.

Do you know what might have caused this?
That is incorrect. What needs to happen is that the live pin of the RCA needs to connect to pin 2 of the XLR, and the shield of that cable to pin 3 and nothing to pin 1. That should do the trick for you. There should be no connection between the metal case of the XLR and pin 3.
 
Hobolicious

Hobolicious

Junior Audioholic
That is incorrect. What needs to happen is that the live pin of the RCA needs to connect to pin 2 of the XLR, and the shield of that cable to pin 3 and nothing to pin 1. That should do the trick for you. There should be no connection between the metal case of the XLR and pin 3.
Sorry, I am a little bit on edge now as it seems like I get no sound from the Classe after what happened.

I tried hooking up the two front speakers with the other RCA-XLR cable that I had not done anything with and there is now no sound coming out from the speakers (except for the hum). I also tried hooking up one of the RCA-RCA cables and did not get any sound on the speaker I tested with either. Really scared something went in the Classe :(

As for the above message, I am not sure if I understand this. I thought I did things correctly based on what I said in the former message (just cutting the Pin1 wire, taping it with electrical tape and leaving everything else as is for the cable)?
 
Hobolicious

Hobolicious

Junior Audioholic
Sorry, I am a little bit on edge now as it seems like I get no sound from the Classe after what happened.

I tried hooking up the two front speakers with the other RCA-XLR cable that I had not done anything with and there is now no sound coming out from the speakers (except for the hum). I also tried hooking up one of the RCA-RCA cables and did not get any sound on the speaker I tested with either. Really scared something went in the Classe :(

As for the above message, I am not sure if I understand this. I thought I did things correctly based on what I said in the former message (just cutting the Pin1 wire, taping it with electrical tape and leaving everything else as is for the cable)?
Sorry, I am an idiot. I somehow had managed to connect it to the bloody Zone 2 connections next to the Pre-out for FR and FL. Been a long day… (life as a dad with two small kids and trying to solve these kind of issues after they have gone to bed is not always easy :D)

So look away from the first part of my previous message.

However still uncertain as to what I did incorrectly with the RCA-XLR cable.
 

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