Why do processors need ANY video hookups?

[MrBoat]

It does get tiresome to read the rants of those who think AVPs and AVRs are pieces of s#%t and then read that they haven’t a clue about the kinds of signals possible over coaxial vs HDMI.

I was taught to respect my elders and I do have a special place in my heart for grandmas and aging veterans, but I’m fed up with stubborn ol’ a$$holes who probably couldn’t see or hear differences in audio and video quality anyway.

I've always been patient with the older folks, and have come to appreciate their rants and even more so now that I am officially becoming one. I realize getting old is not for the faint of heart and this cantankerousness helps keep the blood flowing. I also understand impatience with the redundancies and bloat of modern tech and change. I just let them have it. Most don't owe the world anything by now anyway, not even an explanation.

Heck, I am resistant to change more than ever now, but I have found my own ways to make AVR etc., work for me, even though I own a heap of old, and revisited old technologies. I have just found that there is time and place for both, while my speakers end up pretty much stealing the show, regardless of what tech I either throw, or withhold from them. My older brother, who is into audio and where I got my start, has never even touched a CD. Vinyl, and FM radio is as far as he ever got and stopped there. He's a cranky old fart worse than I, but otherwise hilarious and well meaning, beyond all that salt.

 

[TLS Guy]

There is no mention of HDCP in the specs for the HDMI so that might very seem give issues as well, assuming there is no HDCP implemented.

That is because those codes apply to the receiving and sending units. HDMI is just the highway.

 

[TLS Guy]

I've always been patient with the older folks, and have come to appreciate their rants and even more so now that I am officially becoming one. I realize getting old is not for the faint of heart and this cantankerousness helps keep the blood flowing. I also understand impatience with the redundancies and bloat of modern tech and change. I just let them have it. Most don't owe the world anything by now anyway, not even an explanation.

Heck, I am resistant to change more than ever now, but I have found my own ways to make AVR etc., work for me, even though I own a heap of old, and revisited old technologies. I have just found that there is time and place for both, while my speakers end up pretty much stealing the show, regardless of what tech I either throw, or withhold from them. My older brother, who is into audio and where I got my start, has never even touched a CD. Vinyl, and FM radio is as far as he ever got and stopped there. He's a cranky old fart worse than I, but otherwise hilarious and well meaning, beyond all that salt.

Very well put. Somewhere there is a DSM code for this Tony bloke, I am pretty sure.

 

[-Jim-]

Gents, am I the only one who remembers that HDMI was created as a means to copy protect media transmission? In doing so it changed the future for a lot of hardware, and causes a lot of headaches along the way.

 

[Steve81]

My older brother, who is into audio and where I got my start, has never even touched a CD. Vinyl, and FM radio is as far as he ever got and stopped there. He's a cranky old fart worse than I, but otherwise hilarious and well meaning, beyond all that salt.

Ultimately people want what they want; who am I to judge? I’ve reverted to a stereo rig from surround, as opposed to going immersive, and I’m happy. It’s not a choice a lot of audio enthusiasts would make, but if it works for me, what do I care?

 

[TLS Guy]

Ultimately people want what they want; who am I to judge? I’ve reverted to a stereo rig from surround, as opposed to going immersive, and I’m happy. It’s not a choice a lot of audio enthusiasts would make, but if it works for me, what do I care?

No, a lot who would not make that choice, but probably should do. In all honesty, your rig can give you at least 90% of the loaf.

I would probably just have a two channel rig, if I did not have an audio hoarding problem. So I had to put all that equipment to use, or my wife would have put in a skip years ago!

 

[tonyE]

Very well put. Somewhere there is a DSM code for this Tony bloke, I am pretty sure.

I may be "old" but I'm not ancient. Most of my career has been as a consultant... even as an employee, I have been fully in R&D... stuff like "senior principal engineer"... I have made a point of never becoming a manager -although I have been a technical lead/architect many times.

I must say that one of the things about getting older in a good way, managing your skills and keeping truly up to date, is dealing with younger ones who have not reached the point of knowing there is no way to know everything. You get those "know it alls" in their 30s and 40s that think they "know it all" and I just watch them work very hard making lots of mistakes... I guess they got to learn.

Me, and my peers, don't have to work so hard... we've already made the mistakes... and in the case of this web site... well, let me tell you that the stuff you guys are playing with, and spending your money on, today is the stuff WE were designing 20 years and so years ago. For me, this stuff is OLD stuff. What you see in the market today is typically the stuff we were looking at in R&D about 10 years ago or even before when doing IRAD.

You see, there have been many jobs where I was doing... digital media... yep! I was working in digital video in the 90s! I've worked on HDMI, I2S, etc... "video chips"... and so on... by now it's rote... you just take the modules and assemble them while fighting the drunks ( martini lunch crowd ) in the Sales and Marketing Dept.

Today's "state of the art" in consumer video is in the Legal Dept. They love to get their hands on stuff that needs licences... pffft... not for me.

Anyhow... it does look the MiniDSP product is very close to what I want, but it's raison d'etre is what I don't need, room correction... I just need to surround decoding itself. Again, ideally what the Emo does... take HDMI from the TV and generate 8 channels of analog surround audio. There is a used XMC-1 on the market... I can probably get it for 400 bucks. If I can set it up so a 12v trigger will bring it up to the same configuration everytime.... unfortunately, it's a big box...

I may have to look for a used Nuforce AVP18. Those are harder to find but it has a smaller profile, does what I want, and matches the looks of the my Nuforce amp.

Oh TLS... let me see, we've had a 97 TLS 3.2, 99 TL, 05 TL, 14 TLX SH-AWD.... we drove a 21 TLX-S SH-AWD spec last year at a gymkhana put by the Acura division.... awesome car.... keep it in Sport Mode 2, shift with the paddles, punch it and bend the line around the apex... I'm fully sold on torque vectoring AWD... Not to mention the stereo in those Acuras ( We've had a very long list of Honda and Acura cars.. I got an Acura the first week they were available in the US.... March of 86 I think it was... The GSR's B18C1 was awesome but the K20Z was better.).

 

[tonyE]

He did not forget the link. But I will give it to you again.

I think if you want the unit you are after, you had better build it. I have to say though, that your descriptions of your hook ups show that you are the likely master chef of "dogs dinners."

I'd love to take a Raspberry and do something with it... but the issue is the licensing...

 

[TLS Guy]

I may be "old" but I'm not ancient. Most of my career has been as a consultant... even as an employee, I have been fully in R&D... stuff like "senior principal engineer"... I have made a point of never becoming a manager -although I have been a technical lead/architect many times.

I must say that one of the things about getting older in a good way, managing your skills and keeping truly up to date, is dealing with younger ones who have not reached the point of knowing there is no way to know everything. You get those "know it alls" in their 30s and 40s that think they "know it all" and I just watch them work very hard making lots of mistakes... I guess they got to learn.

Me, and my peers, don't have to work so hard... we've already made the mistakes... and in the case of this web site... well, let me tell you that the stuff you guys are playing with, and spending your money on, today is the stuff WE were designing 20 years and so years ago. For me, this stuff is OLD stuff. What you see in the market today is typically the stuff we were looking at in R&D about 10 years ago or even before when doing IRAD.

You see, there have been many jobs where I was doing... digital media... yep! I was working in digital video in the 90s! I've worked on HDMI, I2S, etc... "video chips"... and so on... by now it's rote... you just take the modules and assemble them while fighting the drunks ( martini lunch crowd ) in the Sales and Marketing Dept.

Today's "state of the art" in consumer video is in the Legal Dept. They love to get their hands on stuff that needs licences... pffft... not for me.

Anyhow... it does look the MiniDSP product is very close to what I want, but it's raison d'etre is what I don't need, room correction... I just need to surround decoding itself. Again, ideally what the Emo does... take HDMI from the TV and generate 8 channels of analog surround audio. There is a used XMC-1 on the market... I can probably get it for 400 bucks. If I can set it up so a 12v trigger will bring it up to the same configuration everytime.... unfortunately, it's a big box...

I may have to look for a used Nuforce AVP18. Those are harder to find but it has a smaller profile, does what I want, and matches the looks of the my Nuforce amp.

Good luck with EMO, they have a bad reputation round here for blowing up, especially that XMC-1. I would buy a major brand AVP Marantz or Yamaha.

 

[tonyE]

My Emo has worked fine for years. The only thing that "smoked" was the 12v trigger, I had it driving a Parasound SCAMP ( 12v triggered AC outlets )... I suppose I could try to fix it myself (not worth 120 bucks to have a tech do it)...

It does have some quirks, but for audio decoding it has worked fine.

I have no interest in buying mainstream consumer products. My problem with them is that I don't want their AVRs, but then their AVPs become too complex and carry even more stuff I don't need/want. Their viewpoint of HT is that their AVR/AVP is the Control Center of the HT Universe... whereas for me, the surround audio decoder is just an ancillary component.

 

[Trell]

That is because those codes apply to the receiving and sending units. HDMI is just the highway.

I meant for the linked-to miniDSP unit that does not have any mention of HDCP along with the HDMI in its specs.

 

[Trebdp83]

I can deal with a crank. As a very young man, I worked for and with many an "Ol' Fart" and "Ornery Cuss" and was amused as well as abused at times. There are some that will obsess over keeping their precious analog system pure. Some who will obsess over every detail of a room and will get a measuring tape out and double and triple check the placement of furniture each morning to make sure the gremlins did not move anything in the night. Some will obsess over graphs because if it doesn't look good, how can it possibly sound good?

As we age, less and less of life seems to be in our control. At the very least, one wants to control the system that brings them so much enjoyment. But, obsessing over anything is not at all healthy. I've been frustrated very much with audio and video devices over the last thirty years. But, obsessing over features I hate in those devices robs me of any enjoyment that might be had when using them.Yes, HDMI/HDCP can be a headache and an absolute nightmare for those moving into systems containing them after many years of analog audio and video connections as well as coaxial/optical digital cable connected systems. But, the idea that anything processing audio AND video via HDMI cannot result in something that sounds good and is enjoyable is just not so.

I remember being upset with the loss of multichannel analog ports on receivers as the years went by. I watched as analog signals via HDMI upscaling began to be locked down. Now, metadata for "Spatial Audio" signals such as Dolby Atmos can only be had with HDMI connections from source devices to AVPs and AVRs equipped to process them and there is no audio only device from which to choose to do so. I actually prefer uncompressed multichannel PCM tracks myself but those are very few.

While one can use a TV to get audio back to an AVP or AVR via eARC, I'm not a big fan of it. I think the optical out ports on TVs can be replaced with a standard HDMI audio out port that is NOT tied to the Audio/Video feed and EDID back and forth of the eARC port. Even if one finds a processor worthy of the job, a concession is already being made simply by using and being bound by the rules of an eARC port. There are devices out there that can be connected to the HDMI cable coming from a TV's eARC port so that it can be connected to a standard HDMI port on an AVP/AVR.

The Nuforce AVP18 is not an audio only device and is obsolete in its HDMI spec. It is useful now only when connected to devices with dual HDMI ports to one of its non ARC ports. It has a limited ARC port for connection to a TV that means it will require HDMI-CEC to be ON and will be limited in bandwidth and will not support lossless multichannel signals. Again, an adapter will be required to connect to the TV's eARC port connected HDMI cable to free it up so that it can be connected to any HDMI port. It supports HDMI 1.4a and is useless when connecting 4K capable devices to it as it only supports 1080p.

I don't have a problem barking back at ol' dogs. I'm not here to make friends or enemies. I look for solutions to my own audio/video problems and try to lend a hand when I can do so. I wish nobody any harm. I just wish some would lighten up.

Oh, and HDCP is still the devil.

 

[TLS Guy]

I may be "old" but I'm not ancient. Most of my career has been as a consultant... even as an employee, I have been fully in R&D... stuff like "senior principal engineer"... I have made a point of never becoming a manager -although I have been a technical lead/architect many times.

I must say that one of the things about getting older in a good way, managing your skills and keeping truly up to date, is dealing with younger ones who have not reached the point of knowing there is no way to know everything. You get those "know it alls" in their 30s and 40s that think they "know it all" and I just watch them work very hard making lots of mistakes... I guess they got to learn.

Me, and my peers, don't have to work so hard... we've already made the mistakes... and in the case of this web site... well, let me tell you that the stuff you guys are playing with, and spending your money on, today is the stuff WE were designing 20 years and so years ago. For me, this stuff is OLD stuff. What you see in the market today is typically the stuff we were looking at in R&D about 10 years ago or even before when doing IRAD.

You see, there have been many jobs where I was doing... digital media... yep! I was working in digital video in the 90s! I've worked on HDMI, I2S, etc... "video chips"... and so on... by now it's rote... you just take the modules and assemble them while fighting the drunks ( martini lunch crowd ) in the Sales and Marketing Dept.

Today's "state of the art" in consumer video is in the Legal Dept. They love to get their hands on stuff that needs licences... pffft... not for me.

Anyhow... it does look the MiniDSP product is very close to what I want, but it's raison d'etre is what I don't need, room correction... I just need to surround decoding itself. Again, ideally what the Emo does... take HDMI from the TV and generate 8 channels of analog surround audio. There is a used XMC-1 on the market... I can probably get it for 400 bucks. If I can set it up so a 12v trigger will bring it up to the same configuration everytime.... unfortunately, it's a big box...

I may have to look for a used Nuforce AVP18. Those are harder to find but it has a smaller profile, does what I want, and matches the looks of the my Nuforce amp.

Oh TLS... let me see, we've had a 97 TLS 3.2, 99 TL, 05 TL, 14 TLX SH-AWD.... we drove a 21 TLX-S SH-AWD spec last year at a gymkhana put by the Acura division.... awesome car.... keep it in Sport Mode 2, shift with the paddles, punch it and bend the line around the apex... I'm fully sold on torque vectoring AWD... Not to mention the stereo in those Acuras ( We've had a very long list of Honda and Acura cars.. I got an Acura the first week they were available in the US.... March of 86 I think it was... The GSR's B18C1 was awesome but the K20Z was better.).

You are barking up the wrong tree. TLS has nothing to do with cars. It stands for Transmission Line Speakers. In the AV room I showed you the front right and left speakers are dual transmission lines, truly full range and actively triamped. The center is an an active biamped single line.

The rear speakers are active dual lines. The surrounds and ceiling speakers are sealed. My 3.1 great room system has an in wall TL sub.

 

[tonyE]

Oh well.... sorry to hear that. I figured you had a car with a really good stereo, ELS.

 

[tonyE]

Look, I don't care if it uses _any_ of the many versions of HDMI, or if it goes via a coax, optical, PCM, SPDIF or if it goes via Pony Express. That is irrelevant to me.

I just want a box that I can hook up to my smart TV that will decode the 7.1 DD and DTS surround signals associated to whatever the TV is tuned to...

...and if the source is plain stereo, then I want this box to create an ersatz surround sound like the Fosgate used to.

I suppose if I don't want DD or DTS I could extract the L/R audio via the output HDMI, drive it to something like the Schitt Synn, use the two back channels into my current four surround channels and be done... or just keep using the Emo UMC-1.

Please be aware that I don't care how it gets done...

Ideally, the damn TV would have a built in, reasonable quality, 7.1 analog output.

Of course, there is another way... use the laptop for ALL video sources, which in my case are all over the network -except for the Roku.

I can easily connect to the Tablos over the network, all the Internet streaming services, my Plex servers, the file systems (my LAN has three NASs for 110TB of online storage)... use a Windows media remote of sorts.... if it were up to me, I would do just that because the laptop has an USB 7.1 "audio card" that does quite well. But since my wife is the primary user, I don't want to force her to power up what is the audio part of the HT to watch the darn TV.

Please keep the "old fart", "crank" insults to yourself... again, I don't care HOW it is done, I just don't want a big box that is designed to be the center of my HT Universe (AVR/AVP) and I do care for the quality of the sound -a lot!

 

[TLS Guy]

Look, I don't care if it uses _any_ of the many versions of HDMI, or if it goes via a coax or if it goes via Pony Express. That is irrelevant to me.

I just want a box that I can hook up to my smart TV that will decode the 7.1 DD and DTS surround signals associated to whatever the TV is tuned to...

If the source is plain stereo, then I want this box to create an ersatz surround sound like the Fosgate used to.

I suppose if I don't want DD or DTS I could extract the L/R audio via the output HDMI, drive it to something like the Schitt Synn, use the two back channels into my current four surround channels and be done... or just keep using the Emo UMC-1.

Please be aware that I don't care how it gets done...

Ideally, the damn TV would have a built in, reasonable quality, 7.1 analog output.

Please keep the "old fart", "crank" insults to yourself... again, I don't care HOW it is done, I just don't want a big box that is designed to be the center of my HT Universe (AVR/AVP) and I do care for the quality of the sound -a lot!

Your problem is that you are up against the analog sunset of 2014. Now the sunset is only mandated for video, so only the video out has to be protected by being digital and protected by HDCP code protection. That is the handshake protocols.

Now audio outs are allowed without restriction. But what is not generally known is the DOT flag. This stands for the Digital Only Token. Software producers are allowed to put this token into their program. This tag, or token, makes the player only allowed to output program digitally, and that includes audio. I believe stereo analog outs are allowed. But all this is complex and quite a minefield of regs.

I have no idea how much program is released with a DOT. However, the end result is that it has ended analog outputs on TVs and other devices. The reason is that the manufacturers don't want to be bugged by analog audio users who would fail to understand why they could get audio from some programs and not others. So to save hassle all outputs are digital, both video and audio. So this is all part of the forcing of HDMI, as I call it.

So someone could make a unit that would take the HDMI output and produce multichannel audio out, as you desire. However, the licensing and certification is very expensive and onerous. So it is not suitable technology for niche units. So the upshot of it all is that if you want multichannel audio you are pretty much going to be wedded to the AV realm. That is particularly true if you want audio out of a TV. So I hope this helps you understand why the type of unit you want does not exist.
As I told you earlier, DRM and licensing issues are the route cause of your issue. In addition most digital disc players now only have HDMI out, and may be a stereo analog out. I note my main comcast box has digital outs (HDMI, Toslink optical audio, Digital RCA audio), the only analog outs are left and right stereo. It is all digital right management that is the driver, and also lack of space for multichannel audio outs. They take up a lot of real estate.

So, yes if you want more than two channel stereo you are entering the AV world pretty much. I don't see that changing.

 

[Trebdp83]

You cannot act out as you have in some of your posts and then be at all shocked when somebody calls you an ol’ fart or worse. But, enough of that, it isn’t helping anybody.

There isn’t anybody here who doesn't understand what you are trying to do. But, being resistant to an AVP means that the TV will be the center of your system and that comes with its own set of problems.

There is simply no reason to consider obsolete devices such as those mentioned as they will limit the audio output signal of the TV. The devices mentioned in earlier posts weren’t any better than many AVRs around their price range at the time of their release.

If you want 7.1 analog pre outs in a unit that has a smaller form factor, supports eARC and you have no interest in the latest and greatest room correction software, you might consider the Marantz Cinema 70s.

After connecting any external devices directly to the TV and making the necessary audio settings for optimal audio output via eARC, the TV will send the unaltered audio signal to the Cinema 70s. It will decode the signal accordingly and an up mixer such as Dolby Surround can applied to any two channel signals for surround sound.

With only the TV connected to the eARC port, no input switching will need to take place in the Cinema 70s and it will only handle the audio signal over eARC. The Cinema 70s is equipped with a web setup feature and can be configured using a PC or Smart device. It never has to output a video signal to the TV and control function can be done using the Marantz app on a Smart device as well.

Using the eARC port on the TV to the eARC equipped Cinema 70s or any other eARC equipped device will leave three available ports for your PC and two other devices. The Magic remote controller can control many devices that may be connected to the other two ports such as various Roku devices.

With eARC and HDMI-CEC ON in the TV and Cinema 70s, your wife will never have to do anything but power on the TV and make a video selection. The TV will turn the Cinema 70s ON and make sure it is switched to eARC and outputs the audio signal coming from the TV tuner, Smart apps or any externally connected devices.

Any devices that support HDMI-CEC and have it turned ON will send device info to the TV and the TV will automatically rename the corresponding HDMI ports to the device name and enable control of the device using the Magic Remote anytime the device port is selected. Once a port device or app selection is made, the Magic Remote will handle the volume level adjustment of the Cinema 70s as well.

Just give it some consideration and don’t subject your wife to the sounds of awful TV speakers. Good luck.

 

[tonyE]

I understand that the issue is the cost of the licensing... but with an MSRP budget of 1000 bucks and only audio processing, there is enough money to produce a niche product that can afford to pay the licences and provide near High End audio quality.

Believe me, at 1000 MSRP the budget is there for the R&D, a BOM with high quality balanced electronics, an SOC, an FPGA, front panel display, etc... the licensing and marketing over the Internet... lots of money available.

Room correction could be sold as an add on optional feature.

A company like Schitt might be able to do that... but it seems like that while there are quite a few companies in the two channel world that do such things, that make a good living and have tons of innovation...

...The Legal and Marketing Depts have killed off such innovation in the HT market. Vide Oppo. That was a company that was moving towards doing what I want... even it it meant buying the polycarbonate drive... but licensing costs drove them out of the business.

Ultimately, I pretty much hate the current state of TV and movies... so stuff like Mel Brooks is in mono anyhow and The Fifth Element doesn't require 24 channel surround.

 

[TLS Guy]

I understand that the issue is the cost of the licensing... but with an MSRP budget of 1000 bucks and only audio processing, there is enough money to produce a niche product that can afford to pay the licences and provide near High End audio quality.

Believe me, at 1000 MSRP the budget is there for the R&D, a BOM with high quality balanced electronics, an SOC, an FPGA, front panel display, etc... the licensing and marketing over the Internet... lots of money available.

Room correction could be sold as an add on optional feature.

A company like Schitt might be able to do that... but it seems like that while there are quite a few companies in the two channel world that do such things, that make a good living and have tons of innovation...

...The Legal and Marketing Depts have killed off such innovation in the HT market. Vide Oppo. That was a company that was moving towards doing what I want... even it it meant buying the polycarbonate drive... but licensing costs drove them out of the business.

Ultimately, I pretty much hate the current state of TV and movies... so stuff like Mel Brooks is in mono anyhow and The Fifth Element doesn't require 24 channel surround.

You can stay up your gum tree if you want. However the world will still go round and evolve.

I think you have grossly underestimated the cost of bringing what you envisage to market. The market for that device would be miniscule. Almost everyone here would treat it with derision and a pandering to audiophool misconceptions. I think the price would be in the $10,000 to $20,000 range per unit, by the time you were done with licensing and certification to make it legal.

The way forward for most is AV. You have already cast aspersions on the fidelity of AV equipment, and that is another audiophool trope, and just wrong. In fact the top flight AV units provide the highest fidelity in the whole universe of audio. As far as speakers it has led to significant improvement. Why? Because it requires intelligible AND natural speech. That is among that hardest challenges for speakers, yet still the majority fall short, but things are on the up and up.

Now I don't want to disarage two channel audio. As I have said many times two good speakers will always best 11 lousy ones. Two channel rigs can actually perform very well in the AV arena. Yesterday was a nasty cold windy day here, so I hunkered down in our family room, and listened to my two channel rig just in A and no V. It was just wonderful. But when I watched the news this morning I had the TV with clear natural speech, because the rig is AV.

Now that rig would not sound one wit better if it was audio only, no matter what fancy highly touted audiophhool electronics you substituted.

I personally believe that audiophilia nervosa is a clinical entity and is in the spectrum of OCD and actually deserves its own DSM code.

Below, one of my favorite winter spaces to hunker down.

I advise you take a good hard look at the wonderful evolving world of AV around you and embrace it.

 

[-Jim-]

... you just take the modules and assemble them while fighting the drunks ( martini lunch crowd ) in the Sales and Marketing Dept.

I'm very offended by this statement.

Most of my career was in Technical Sales & Marketing for two multi billion dollar companies; and we added value to the process. Without sales (and therefore income) there is no company, no R&D Departments, nothing. (I did ten years on tools before taking relevant courses and moving into it.)

For those who think it's a martini lunch crowd really fail to grasp the effort professional technical sales people do. Not only do they need to understand all the details of the products or services they represent, and were there can be applied, they need to be able to communicate that to the Engineers and decision makers in the Customer's companies, and their Engineering Consultants. They also need a strong grasp of the legalities (see Terms and Conditions - that micro type that no tech geek ever reads => never mind understands) in the country where the procurement occurs. (My roles were global in nature, especially I was with the largest company in the world at the time. Some of us were heavily involved in IEEE for decades, and I was an author (with others) of a well received technical paper at IEEE PCIC which was peer reviewed.)

Yes, we did take clients and consultants to lunch periodically, and early on they would have a couple (but I never had more than one drink as there was still work to do after driving back) but even their intake diminished over the years. Those meetings allowed us to discuss projects and details without others involved. (You had to be prepared and on top of your game for these meetings.) Both seemed to benefit from those private encounters. We certainly weren't "drunks" as you put it. I put in 60+ hour weeks consistently and traveled the world with a lot of it on weekends, holidays, birthdays, etc. You were constantly being evaluated by management, and any who weren't up to the challenge were terminated.

Perpetuating the myth, and slagging folks who work in Sales and Marketing is not only inaccurate, it's unfair, and ignorant of what really goes on in the real world of commerce & technology.