Why do processors need ANY video hookups?

[PWRmx24]

OK. I'm going back to square one. With 4K players and 4K tvs that present stunning pictures, why does there need to be a single video hook up on my processor? (With the exception of on screen menu for the processor itself). All I need is to hook the video/audio HDMI to a tv and the audio hdmi to an audio processor. I can't seem to find a processor that just does xx.x channel audio. Seems like I'm paying for a piece of audio video processor equipment that has no need for the video part.

 

[TLS Guy]

OK. I'm going back to square one. With 4K players and 4K tvs that present stunning pictures, why does there need to be a single video hook up on my processor? (With the exception of on screen menu for the processor itself). All I need is to hook the video/audio HDMI to a tv and the audio hdmi to an audio processor. I can't seem to find a processor that just does xx.x channel audio. Seems like I'm paying for a piece of audio video processor equipment that has no need for the video part.

No, and you won't. This all comes down the complexity of eARC. It is tied up with two issues. Demand for such a unit that would be minimal. This market for the mass public is catered to by countless sound bars.

The next issue is the Federal digital rights management laws, known as DRM. You can extract two channel audio from HDMI and output it as optical or RCA. That is it. They have extractors like this one. Quality is generally poor and they are not to be advised.

There really would be no point in extracting multichannel and the sub signal, as without a control unit, it would be pretty much useless.

So, you have to face the fact that if you want to watch TV in proper multichannel audio and not a horrid sound bar, then you have to have an AVR or AVP. There is no way round it. That is actually the cheapest solution for the customer and industry. HDMI regulations, specifications, complexity and licensing are onerous. This is all a major part of AV devices. It is just not worth it to go to the vast expense to develop, and market, a low demand unit like you suggest. When all is said and done, an AVR or AVP is far more versatile and practical than what you suggest. So move on. Next case!

 

[j_garcia]

Is it really worth griping about? The cost of most AVRs and AVPs isn't in the video portion. Yes, there's added cost but it isn't doubling the price or anything. It makes it a lot easier to configure things than scrolling endlessly through menus on the front panel, presumably you will be routing that video through one device, the AVP/AVR in order to leverage source switching and it technically IS one connection from the AVR/AVP to the TV. Just because it is connected does not mean you need to turn the TV on if listening to audio only.

You can buy a stereo receiver or integrated amp that has no video. Multichannel, not going to find it.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

The next issue is the Federal digital rights management laws, known as DRM. You can extract two channel audio from HDMI and output it as optical or RCA. That is it. They have extractors like this one. Quality is generally poor and they are not to be advised.

Just to clarify few things here:

DRM isn't Federal, nor a law. DRM or Digital Rights Management is a general umbrella name for a vast set of technologies designed to protect content (audio and video in this case, but not limited to) from making easy seamless bit-perfect copies. Now coming to the legal part, DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act) from 1998 federal law meant to protect prohibit people from breaking or bypassing DRM technologies.
Most modern Audio and Video content and systems are in-deep protected with various DRM systems, including HDMI, which is also required for high-resolution A/V playback.

 

[Trell]

Is it really worth griping about? The cost of most AVRs and AVPs isn't in the video portion. Yes, there's added cost but it isn't doubling the price or anything. It makes it a lot easier to configure things than scrolling endlessly through menus on the front panel, presumably you will be routing that video through one device, the AVP/AVR in order to leverage source switching and it technically IS one connection from the AVR/AVP to the TV. Just because it is connected does not mean you need to turn the TV on if listening to audio only.

You can buy a stereo receiver or integrated amp that has no video. Multichannel, not going to find it.

Many years ago I wanted a plasma TV without any built-in speakers and found out that that was much more expensive with no performance improvements: Just more expensive.

Similar for stereo receivers today.

 

[Trell]

DRM or Digital Rights Restrictions Management is a general umbrella name for a vast set of technologies designed to protect restrict content (audio and video in this case, but not limited to) from making easy seamless bit-perfect copies

Fixed that for you.

 

[j_garcia]

Many years ago I wanted a plasma TV without any built-in speakers and found out that that was much more expensive with no performance improvements: Just more expensive.

Similar for stereo receivers today.

That was easier to find back in the day though, now it is almost non existent in the consumer market. Part of the cost for that is because they know they won't sell many so the production cost of a "special" model is higher, even though it is less and more or less the same parts. Gaming monitors with no audio that are becoming larger are starting to be more common now, however they also cost an arm and a leg.

 

[Trell]

That was easier to find back in the day though, now it is almost non existent in the consumer market. Part of the cost for that is because they know they won't sell many so the production cost of a "special" model is higher, even though it is less and more or less the same parts. Gaming monitors with no audio that are becoming larger are starting to be more common now, however they also cost an arm and a leg.

Exactly! Low volumes demands higher prices, unless the company wants to sell at a loss.

 

[-Jim-]

Once upon a time I was looking for just a screen with speakers to save money, instead of a TV as Cable TV suppliers here in Canada long ago abandoned using the tuners built into televisions. I thought I was just paying for useless kit that I'd never use. My location has broadcast signals "shadowed" by a mountain, or two, so that's never been an option either.

Of course once I hooked most of our TVs to Home Theater systems, the need for speakers also became moot. But buying a straight 55 inch or larger monitor in those days was only possible for those with very deep pockets, if at all. Economics and economies of scale made it not practical. So we have 3 large TVs (4 if you include the one at the Cabin) and never use the Tuners in them at all. That's just the reality we have to live with.

 

[lovinthehd]

Some still use video processing in avrs/pre-pros, particularly for legacy gear (S video, component video, etc). I haven't used my avrs' video processing in years (my tv's video processing is better) but still prefer an avr/pre-pro for best switching of av sources and maximizing audio. It's hard to beat an avr or pre-pro for utility, even if you don't use all the features. AVRs and pre-pros tend to have the licenses for DTS/Dolby features, too.

 

[TLS Guy]

Just to clarify few things here:

DRM isn't Federal, nor a law. DRM or Digital Rights Management is a general umbrella name for a vast set of technologies designed to protect content (audio and video in this case, but not limited to) from making easy seamless bit-perfect copies. Now coming to the legal part, DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act) from 1998 federal law meant to protect prohibit people from breaking or bypassing DRM technologies.
Most modern Audio and Video content and systems are in-deep protected with various DRM systems, including HDMI, which is also required for high-resolution A/V playback.

Evading copyright is covered by Federal Law.

In U.S. law, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) of 1995 banned the development and distribution of technology designed to sidestep DRM, as well as circumventing DRM to access works that are under copyright. Further the FTC are empowered to implement and control this legislation, and they do, on a continuous basis.

This brought about the development of HDMI with its HDCP codes, which undergo continuous development. So it actually has become a giant "interference industry."

 

[snakeeyes]

Not a fan of HDMI. Version 2.0 was ok but so many other versions were a problem.

 

[PWRmx24]

Ok. Make sure I understand. What am I missing out on if I hook the source audio HDMI out to a HDMI 1.3 AVP and the source video HDMI video out to the TV? How does digital rights stop that?

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok. Make sure I understand. What am I missing out on if I hook the source audio HDMI out to a HDMI 1.3 AVP and the source video HDMI video out to the TV? How does digital rights stop that?

Have you tried that yet? Not sure it will work and I very much doubt it will. You will probably end up with an EDID conflict having the source HDMI out connected to two different devices. HDMI is not like other connections, as there are HDCP handshakes going on to prevent piracy. Having, especially two different HDMI versions connected to the same device will probably give you nothing.

The best way to do this is connect sources to a modern AVP that supports eARC. Then you connect peripheral devices to the AVP or AVR and the AVP or AVR to the TV via the eARC sockets on the AVR or AVP and the TV. HDMI 1.3 was released 2006 and you are not likely to get much joy with that whatever you connect it to. If you do it the way it is designed then you can play your peripherals, and also get audio back to you AVR or AVP from the TV's smart apps via eARC.

 

[Trebdp83]

Ok. Make sure I understand. What am I missing out on if I hook the source audio HDMI out to a HDMI 1.3 AVP and the source video HDMI video out to the TV? How does digital rights stop that?

It shouldn’t stop it. The signal from the HDMI #2 port is audio only and designed for this purpose when using players with 2 HDMI output ports. If the AVP is actually HDMI 1.3, it will support HDMI-CEC. Make sure it is OFF in every device or you may experience unwanted source input switches in the AVP when the TV switches input sources. But, without ARC support on HDMI 1.3, that may not be an issue. Results will vary.

You can specify audio out from HDMI #2 in the player rather than leave it at the Auto setting to avoid issues. And, of course, you can connect a cable from the AVP HDMI OUT port to one of the TV’s other input ports to view its GUI when needing to do so. I believe the HDMI #2 ports on equipped players are HDMI 1.4 specced which is compatible with the audio capabilities of HDMI 1.3 but not HDMI 1.2 which did not support lossless multichannel audio. I've used the HDMI #1 port of a player to a 4K TV and the HDMI #2 port to an AVR but in my case the devices were all at least HDMI 2.0. I believe the HDMI #2 ports are HDMI 1.4 specced. Again, results can and always do vary. With any HDMI 2.1 specced components in the system, it wise to replace all of the HDMI cables with Ultra Certified cables all the way around.

Others have inquired about AVPs and AVRs with just an eARC port. But, eARC implementation in TVs differs from one manufacturer to another and TVs are very limited in their audio and video source inputs compared to AVPs and AVRs. With many TVs not supporting DTS at all and none supporting DSD, using the TV as the hub with a single and very specifically designed audio return port is a no go for many wanting more ports and audio capabilities. But, for those mixing new TVs with older AVPs and AVRs, the dual HDMI port players are useful.

 

[PWRmx24]

Thanks. Perhaps it's obvious from my other posts I'm kind of on the "bottom rung" cheap end of "audiophile". I buy used and older when possible. But I'm trying to decide between buying a Sony X700M ($178 looks really good right now) paired with a used Rotel RSP-1570 (HDMI 1.3) to buy or keep my Rotel RSP-1066 (no HDMI) sourced with a new Panasonic 820 or 9000. Need a new tv as well. 55" is about all I need.

 

[tonyE]

OK. I'm going back to square one. With 4K players and 4K tvs that present stunning pictures, why does there need to be a single video hook up on my processor? (With the exception of on screen menu for the processor itself). All I need is to hook the video/audio HDMI to a tv and the audio hdmi to an audio processor. I can't seem to find a processor that just does xx.x channel audio. Seems like I'm paying for a piece of audio video processor equipment that has no need for the video part.

Did you ever find the answer?

I'm also looking for a surround audio ONLY processor... The input will be the HDMI (or digital audio signal) coming out of the TV. For DVDs and Plex I use a PC with its own external DD/DTS decoder.

For surround audio switcher I have a Parasound P7... I want to ditch the Emo processor as it is simply too complicated for what I need.... a stand along box that will decode whatever surround audio is coming out of the TV and with the option to create a surround field if the signal if only L/R.

In essence I want a 7.1 DD/DTS version of a 5 .1 Sony EP9ES.

 

[TLS Guy]

Did you ever find the answer?

I'm also looking for a surround audio ONLY processor... The input will be the HDMI (or digital audio signal) coming out of the TV. For DVDs and Plex I use a PC with its own external DD/DTS decoder.

For surround audio switcher I have a Parasound P7... I want to ditch the Emo processor as it is simply too complicated for what I need.... a stand along box that will decode whatever surround audio is coming out of the TV and with the option to create a surround field if the signal if only L/R.

In essence I want a 7.1 DD/DTS version of a 5 .1 Sony EP9ES.

Not going to find it, and its not going to happen. The main reason is DRM. That means HDMI with its HDCP protocols. HDMI is primarily a video contrivance and actually now a good digital audio transfer cable. There just is no demand for audio only. In any event, set ups are complex and you really need a screen to properly set it up.
Get used to the fact audio and video are now joined at the hip, and that actually is a very good thing to have happened.

 

[Trebdp83]

While DD 5.1 and DTS 5.1 signals can be had over an optical connection from a TV to a processor/receiver, any lossy(DD+) 7.1 signals will require HDMI ARC and lossless(DTHD) 7.1 signals will require HDMI eARC be supported in both the TV and processor/receiver.

It’s been some time now since I had a setup that accommodated both multichannel analog audio and analog composite and component video connections. While HDMI introduced the HDCP police to my setups, it also lessened the number of needed cables to connect devices to my systems.

There just isn’t a good argument anymore for not using HDMI for all connected devices that feature it and letting an AVP/AVR handle all of the audio processing of those devices. Some upgrading older equipment may not realize that newer devices only support certain codecs when using HDMI connections.

 

[tonyE]

So I'm stuck with crappy mainstream consumer stuff even when modern smart TVs are can switch video very nicely, thank you.

I suppose I'll keep the Emo UMC-1. Or might even buy a used XMC-1 -or Nuforce AVP-18,. with 90% of its circuitry worthless to me.

I figured that for under 1000 bucks, someone would make a good audio decoder, with the concomitant fees to the IP owners. Just a digital coax input, USB and HDMI. No need for a video screen it will NOT do room correction or anything like that. Just set up the distances from the speakers to the listener and perhaps bass management... that can all be done in a simple front panel display ( take a look at the Sony EP9ES )...

BTW, I don't have an issue using HDMI eARC.... my current TV is an LG OLED which, at two years old, I'm pretty sure supports that. I just don't want an AVP/AVR.... my set up is straightforward: Smart TV, PC with USB 7 channel decoder ( VLC, ripped DVDs, Plex ), Emo UMC1 (*), Parasound P7, Nuforce 8 channel amp, Roku, Tablos, Internet for whatever... 7.0 PSB speakers all around, no need for subwoofer because the Gold-i's have very robust bass. I'm also thinking of adding an FM tuner. This is the home theater in the den, so I want its use simple.

The PC is very easy to use... the Emotiva is a PITA because I no longer need 90% of what it does. The Parasound P7 is simple to use, no need for stinking complex menus. I do not need room correction since the room was designed/built to sound good, I don't need tone controls... and the P7 offers bass management if I ever need that.

(*) All the UMC1 does is to take the HDMI output from the TV and decode whatever audio is in it.