Why do processors need ANY video hookups?

[TLS Guy]

So I'm stuck with crappy mainstream consumer stuff even when modern smart TVs are can switch video very nicely, thank you.

I suppose I'll keep the Emo UMC-1. Or might even buy a used XMC-1 -or Nuforce AVP-18,. with 90% of its circuitry worthless to me.

I figured that for under 1000 bucks, someone would make a good audio decoder, with the concomitant fees to the IP owners. Just a digital coax input, USB and HDMI. No need for a video screen it will NOT do room correction or anything like that. Just set up the distances from the speakers to the listener and perhaps bass management... that can all be done in a simple front panel display ( take a look at the Sony EP9ES )...

BTW, I don't have an issue using HDMI eARC.... my current TV is an LG OLED which, at two years old, I'm pretty sure supports that. I just don't want an AVP/AVR.... my set up is straightforward: TV, PC with USB 7 channel decoder ( VLC, ripped DVDs, Plex ), Smart TV, Emo UMC1, Parasound P7, Nuforce 8 channel amp, Roky, Tablos, Internet for whatever... 7.0 PSB speakers all around, no need for subwoofer because the Gold-i's have very robust bass. I'm also thinking of adding an FM tuner. This is the home theater in the den, so I want its use simple.

The PC is very easy to use... the Emotiva is a PITA because I no longer need 90% of what it does. The Parasound P7 is simple to use, no need for stinking complex menus. I do not need room correction since the room was designed/built to sound good, I don't need tone controls... and the P7 offers bass management if I ever need that.

I don't know how old you are, but you are thinking like an old man. We are all called to be lifelong learners. It is not your father's world, or the world I inhabited for over half of my life. The whole process of electronic design, manufacture and distribution has changed out of all recognition in that time. The genie escaped from the bottle in the 1970s at the start of IC manufacture.

The reasons you can't have what you desire are multiple.

The first is the nature of chip design and manufacture. In general most chips are only made once. Very, very popular high demand chips will have multiple runs. However each set up costs millions, and so there has to be a prospect that their will be a return on the investment.

In addition, because and as part of this, chips are designed to carry out multiple functions. This obviously gets costs down.

Now this is a part of the reason why HDMI incorporates audio and video. The other part is digital rights management. In those HDMI connections there are handshakes going on multiple times a second between devices to make sure you are not a pirate. All of these functions have a habit of being in one master chip. An AV processing chip.

Now whilst DRM is not as onerous in audio only, manufacturers and software suppliers would rather play it safe and use the security of HDMI HDCP codes to avoid legal hassles.

Basically the demand for what you want is small and does not justify IC design and manufacture of such a product, as there would be no hope of a profit, but every chance for bankruptcy.

So economies of scale and other legal and market pressures drive the market.

So in the end it is cheaper by far to produce for AV, than audio only.

But as I have said it is basically highly convenient to have the ability to get a picture when needed.

So, I think A & V are destined to be joined at the hip for years to come, unless you just want a turntable and powered speakers. If you are going to go anywhere near the great world wide web, then it is not your father's audio system you need. The whole infrastructure from top to bottom has changed beyond recognition.

 

[Trebdp83]

There are many Smart TVs that can be called mainstream crappy consumer stuff. Sony is no longer making anything like the EP9ES in the HDMI age. There are some using an AVP/AVR and use nothing but the eARC port to connect to a TV that supports eARC with their external devices connected directly to the TV.

TVs have limited HDMI inputs and not all of them are equal on different models. Very few devices are equipped with dual HDMI ports to separate audio and video feeds for output. There isn't an AVP/AVR on the market for $1,000 that features eARC AND multichannel analog pre out ports for connection to external amps. For around $1,300, there are some options.

 

[tonyE]

Hmm... be careful what you say and do not make assumptions.

I've been in the firmware/software/hardware business for over 40 years now. I've been doing R&D since Carter was POTUS.

Heck, it's people like me who created the "firmware" and Internet concepts. When I started we had the 6502 and Z80... now when I can remote into the lab and do things that we would have never thought about just 20 years ago.

Have you even been in a chip design/production chain?
Do you know RTL, real time firmware, JTAG, emulators, simulators, FPGAs, etc, etc...
Can you use a signal/function generator with a scope and program a computer to coordinate measurments.
Have you done internetworking, embedded software, video streaming?
Have you done networked video distribution?
Have you done digital video?

Etc, etc... things that I can not tell you because of NDAs.

So, do NOT assume... do not insult my skill set because it sounds like I can teach you a lot of stuff you don't understand much.

Processing audio separate from video is precisely what is being done in those chips.... you see... normally you take the digital stream data and split the video and audio into different chains while maintaining a master clock. In the better products, you will use a set of ARM cores, a bunch of AXI busses, some kind of a matrix switch, a media processor block, etc...

Indeed, the most advanced SoC's today are in a cell phone. They are expensive but they benefit from huge economies of scale.

What you call an "AV processing chip" I call an SoC ( System On a Chip). That is the standard naming convention in the industry. Nowadays, those SoC are pushing forward with including FPGAs as well.

So you see, the "chip" I want would not be difficult nor expensive to design and build... we'd take a Xylinx or Intel SoC device with an ARM A7 and FPGA.... simple, cheap. Audio decoding is easy.

So, now, what else can I teach you about the TECHNOLOGY and the Physics of it?

The only current reason why we don't have the product is simple... it's MARKETING... because the marketing guys in the consumer world want you to blow money every three years as they keep changing standards. I know this because in R&D we're constantly fighting Sales and Marketing over everything... Bill of Materials, Features, Schedules, etc, etc...

That plus the constant licensing fees that keep getting generated... why do you think Oppo got out of the business? They couldn't make money paying for all those logos on the front panel! Most of which the consumer will NEVER use!

There is no reason why the product I just described can not exist from a technical view point. I just described to you the development platform... you can put it together with available development single board computers (SBCs).

And it would sell... priced at around 1000 bucks there would be plenty of budget to pay for the legal fees, to include high quality components -balanced outputs too, and it would make life very easy for installers and people setting up home theaters ( specially professional installers and advanced hobbyists).

It's just the marketing guys not wanting to give it to you... and people like you, who think they know it all.

 

[tonyE]

There are many Smart TVs that can be called mainstream crappy consumer stuff. Sony is no longer making anything like the EP9ES in the HDMI age. There are some using an AVP/AVR and use nothing but the eARC port to connect to a TV that supports eARC with their external devices connected directly to the TV.

TVs have limited HDMI inputs and not all of them are equal on different models. Very few devices are equipped with dual HDMI ports to separate audio and video feeds for output. There isn't an AVP/AVR on the market for $1,000 that features eARC AND multichannel analog pre out ports for connection to external amps. For around $1,300, there are some options.

Note I do NOT want an AVP/AVR... I don't want any video processing except for whatever is needed as input to receive the audio data.

Timing should not be an issue either... today I take the HDMI output from my LG TV, take it into the Emo and then decode it. That drives the audio in the HT. My eyes and ears are in synch, there is no delay even though the audio is by definition time delayed from the video... I guess the audio processing is so fast, likely in the microsecond range, that it is not an issue. I can see if it were in the mSec range we'd have to loop the video back to the TV to keep the "system delay" such as that both audio and video remained time coherent.

It is a crappy world.... I guess the licensing is a PITA.

Meanwhile, in the 2Ch world, I'm still spinning LPs and tubes and all kinds of fancy, DIY state of the art stuff.

 

[TLS Guy]

There are many Smart TVs that can be called mainstream crappy consumer stuff. Sony is no longer making anything like the EP9ES in the HDMI age. There are some using an AVP/AVR and use nothing but the eARC port to connect to a TV that supports eARC with their external devices connected directly to the TV.

TVs have limited HDMI inputs and not all of them are equal on different models. Very few devices are equipped with dual HDMI ports to separate audio and video feeds for output. There isn't an AVP/AVR on the market for $1,000 that features eARC AND multichannel analog pre out ports for connection to external amps. For around $1,300, there are some options.

A TV is not a very good place to do your AV switching though. eARC does work well for me, when I am forced to use an app on a smart TV.

I have to say, it is all getting very expensive and you can understand where most people quit at a TV, soundbar and may be a sub! Mind you everything is. We just bought a chair for out family room, nothing particularly special but decent and no electronics and price was $1500.00

 

[TLS Guy]

Hmm... be careful what you say and do not make assumptions.

I've been in the firmware/software/hardware business for over 40 years now. I've been doing R&D since Carter was POTUS.

Have you even been in a chip design/production chain?
Do you know RTL, real time firmware, JTAG, emulators, simulators, FPGAs, etc, etc...
Can you use a signal/function generator with a scope and program a computer to coordinate measurments.
Have you done internetworking, embedded software, video streaming?

Etc, etc... things that I can not tell you because of NDAs.

Processing audio separate from video is precisely what is being done in those chips.... you see... normally you take the digital stream data and split the video and audio into different chains while maintaining a master clock. In the better products, you will use a set of ARM cores, a bunch of AXI busses, some kind of a matrix switch, a media processor block, etc...

What you call an "AV processing chip" I call an SoC ( System On a Chip). That is the standard naming convention in the industry. Nowadays, those SoC are pushing forward with including FPGAs as well.

And the marketing guys tend to schedule the taping (design going out for manufacturing) and receiving (ASICs coming in for initial design verification) around Christmas and the 4th.. so while those sales and marketing guys go on vacation, the engineers have to cancel our vacations and stick around the lab...

So, now, what else can I teach you about the TECHNOLOGY and the Physics of it?

The only current reason why we don't have the product is simple... it's MARKETING... because the marketing guys in the consumer world want you to blow money every three years as they keep changing standards. I know this because in R&D we're constantly fighting Sales and Marketing over everything... Bill of Materials, Features, Schedules, etc, etc...

That plus the constant licensing fees that keep getting generated... why do you think Oppo got out of the business? They couldn't make money paying for all those logos on the front panel! Most of which the consumer will NEVER use!

There is no reason why the product I just described can not exist from a technical view point.

And it would sell... priced at around 1000 bucks there would be plenty of budget to pay for the legal fees, to include high quality components -balanced outputs too, and it would make life very easy for installers and people setting up home theaters ( specially professional installers and advanced hobbyists).

It's just the marketing guys not wanting to give it to you... and people like you, who think they know it all.

You have really made my point though, economies of scale are against you. And once you have bought that chip, and I know the processing of audio and video is separate, but you might as well use all options once you have bought that chip. I can see the issue from the manufactures point of view.

 

[Trebdp83]

Smart TVs can change input sources well enough and pass audio from externally connected devices over eARC when configured properly. But, the performance of their streaming apps will not match the performance of the best external streaming devices.

 

[Trebdp83]

Note I do NOT want an AVP/AVR... I don't want any video processing except for whatever is needed as input to receive the audio data.

Timing should not be an issue either... today I take the HDMI output from my LG TV, take it into the Emo and then decode it. That drives the audio in the HT. My eyes and ears are in synch, there is no delay even though the audio is by definition time delayed from the video... I guess the audio processing is so fast, likely in the microsecond range, that it is not an issue. I can see if it were in the mSec range we'd have to loop the video back to the TV to keep the "system delay" such as that both audio and video remained time coherent.

It is a crappy world.... I guess the licensing is a PITA.

Meanwhile, in the 2Ch world, I'm still spinning LPs and tubes and all kinds of fancy, DIY state of the art stuff.

Well, you are out of luck. Currently, there simply is not a device that processes multichannel audio signals over HDMI and does not also process video signals. There are some integrated two channel devices that do have eARC ports but only support two channel PCM over them.

Why so many are concerned over HDMI connections in new devices vs older analog and SPDIF equipped devices is a wonder. There is simply no loss of audio or video quality when connecting devices directly to a modern AVP/AVR and then on to a TV.

If just using eARC, there simply isn’t a video signal to be concerned with at all using an AVP/AVR and many have web setup features so that settings adjustments can be made on a PC or Smart device without using the TV at all. Stressing over any of it is just a waste of one’s time.

 

[tonyE]

I don't want video switching or processing. I don't need it. I don't use.. and an AVR is a POS to me... I have been doing separates since.. hmm... the mid 80s, with two Beta HiFis, switcher, Fosgate and amps. I did have some chroma and what not gizmos that were used, sparingly, as punch in processors in the switcher.

I brought up HDMI only IF needed to export whatever surround audio is embedded on whatever signal the smart TV is playing back ( my LG exports that signal via an HDMI connector plus I believe it also has a digital coax signal but I don't know if that takes out the surround track or just a stereo PCM sound track).

As far as a TV being a "not a very good place to do your AV switching "... WHY? I find it very useful, just one less remote.

And as it just happens I also don't use any video processing, anywhere. Except for setting the grayscale, white/black levels and color saturation...

AVR, sorry, not for me. I prefer to separate my audio stuff far away from the video. Hooking up anything to an AVR is, by definition, throwing quality away. I already have a processor and amp... but given the TV does all the video switching I went to a Parasound P7 to keep the audio as good as possible.

 

[Trebdp83]

It does get tiresome to read the rants of those who think AVPs and AVRs are pieces of s#%t and then read that they haven’t a clue about the kinds of signals possible over coaxial vs HDMI.

I was taught to respect my elders and I do have a special place in my heart for grandmas and aging veterans, but I’m fed up with stubborn ol’ a$$holes who probably couldn’t see or hear differences in audio and video quality anyway.

The title of the site is Audioholics, not Alcoholics. It’s easily confused if one is already sauced. If you feel the need to blow off steam, take it out on your ex wife and kids. Or, better yet, get on the f#%kin’ wagon.

P.S. I also have an LG TV and would bet real money you have more than a few video processing features active at any given moment without realizing it.

 

[lovinthehd]

Let alone that P7 not being particularly hi-fi, at least not any more than a modern avr....

 

[highfigh]

Many years ago I wanted a plasma TV without any built-in speakers and found out that that was much more expensive with no performance improvements: Just more expensive.

Similar for stereo receivers today.

Video displays that were just that- video monitors and no audio, have been common in the commercial/digital signage areas of the industry but non-industry consumers don't and didn't see much value in it unless they really understood what they were dealing with- they wanted convenience, not true custom systems. Those displays come with a higher price, but many have been designed to operate much longer than the consumer average of 4 hours/day and some were made to run 24/7.

 

[highfigh]

Ok. Make sure I understand. What am I missing out on if I hook the source audio HDMI out to a HDMI 1.3 AVP and the source video HDMI video out to the TV? How does digital rights stop that?

At best, the audio & video might synch or, it may not. Audio or video might go in and out, too. I have seen some really odd performance when cables weren't current and standards between equipment weren't up to date and/or didn't match. Separating audio & video is part of DRM- sometimes, a piece like HD Fury can do it, but it doesn't always work. I think Vanco has something, but I have avoided them.

 

[tonyE]

It does get tiresome to read the rants of those who think AVPs and AVRs are pieces of s#%t and then read that they haven’t a clue about the kinds of signals possible over coaxial vs HDMI.

I was taught to respect my elders and I do have a special place in my heart for grandmas and aging veterans, but I’m fed up with stubborn ol’ a$$holes who probably couldn’t see or hear differences in audio and video quality anyway.

The title of the site is Audioholics, not Alcoholics. It’s easily confused if one is already sauced. If you feel the need to blow off steam, take it out on your ex wife and kids. Or, better yet, get on the f#%kin’ wagon.

P.S. I also have an LG TV and would bet real money you have more than a few video processing features active at any given moment without realizing it.

Given that today I had one of my custom DIY Static Induction Transistor (VFET) amps went up in smoke, one of the channels that is, mostly because it's a prototype, state of the art, I'm in no humor to take an attitude like yours (and innuendo) from people who are strictly into commercial consumer box electronics and bipolar (or cheap class D) amps that are rated worse than the old IHF numbers that were so common place once upon a time.

You, loving your AVR, have no clue what real true state of the art audio electronic components are.

Receivers are a compromise, ever have been, even the Pioneer 1980. Serious audio has always been the realm of components. There is simply no room in a single chassis to hold the devices and power supplies...

Just to give you an idea... the 35 wpc amp that smoked one of its channels today is a stereo, class A, SIT with dual separate power supplies in a 5U, 700mm, 17 inch wide chassis. It has handles front and back and it has a full aluminum chassis to keep the weight under 50 lbs.

I broke down with the preamp... and I bought a used Conrad Johnson ET3SE. Go check that one out...

Oh, and I suppose you have dedicated 110VAC home runs to the stereo system in the living room and the HT audio system in the den ( that one also has a dedicated 100VAC line for the video ).

Now, what was it you were mumbling about not knowing about sound?

You should pick your battles a lot more carefully... don't pick them with someone who has six full blown audio systems in the house, a full blown HTPC and a collection of modern prototypes and classic receivers in perfect shape... yep, some of them are receivers... Marantz 2325, 4415, Sansui G7500 and Akai AS980.

As of last count I got some 30 amps... and 4000 LPs...

Oh, I have TWO LG OLED units, 77C1 and 55CX... I went throught the service channels and disabled everything that processed the signal.. You see, I used to work in video labs when we were designing digital video and satellite/internet broadcasting... so I know a bit about such things quite a bit more than a consumer.

So there. Fool.

 

[lovinthehd]

Given that today I had one of my custom DIY Static Induction Transistor (VFET) amps go up in smoke, one of the channels that is, mostly because it's a prototype, state of the art, I'm in no humor to take an attitude like yours (and innuendo) from people who are strictly into commercial consumer box electronics and bipolar (or cheap class D) amps that are rated worse than the old IHF numbers that were so common place once upon a time.

You, loving your AVR, have no clue what real true state of the art audio electronic components are.

Receivers are a compromise, ever have been, even the Pioneer 1980. Serious audio has always been the realm of components. There is simply no room in a single chassis to hold the devices and power supplies...

Just to give you an idea... the 35 wpc amp that smoked one of its channels today is a stereo, class A, SIT with dual separate power supplies in a 5U, 700mm, 17 inch wide chassis. It has handles front and back and it has a full aluminum chassis to keep the weight under 50 lbs.

I broke down with the preamp... and I bought a used Conrad Johnson EV3SE. Go check that one out...

Oh, and I suppose you have dedicated 110VAC home runs to the stereo system in the living room and the HT audio system in the den ( that one also has a dedicated 100VAC line for the video ).

Now, what was it you were mumbling about not knowing about sound?

You should pick your battles a lot more careful... don't pick them with someone who has six full blown audio systems in the house, a full blown HTPC and a collection of modern prototypes and classic receivers in perfect shape... yep, some of them are receivers... Marantz 2325, 4415, Sansui G7500 and Akai AS980.

As of last count I got some 30 amps... and 4000 LPs...

Oh, I have TWO LG OLED units... I went throught the service channels and disabled everything that processed the signal.. You see, I used to work in video labs when we were designing digital video and satellite/internet broadcasting... so I know a bit about such things quite a bit more than a consumer.

So there. Fool.

Odd how some really well versed in digital world can still be sucked in by the usual 2ch bullshit. I have five systems myself, but you just sound like an audiophool so far....

 

[tonyE]

At best, the audio & video might synch or, it may not. Audio or video might go in and out, too. I have seen some really odd performance when cables weren't current and standards between equipment weren't up to date and/or didn't match. Separating audio & video is part of DRM- sometimes, a piece like HD Fury can do it, but it doesn't always work. I think Vanco has something, but I have avoided them.

I wired the output HDMI from my LG to an input of the Emo UMC1. The audio, although likely delayed, is still quite time coherent that I don't have delay issues.

I take the laptop and drive the TV into an HDMI input of the TV ( essentially using it as a second monitor ) and then drive the 7.1 decoder over USB and out to the audio chain. I have no lip sync issues either.

 

[tonyE]

Odd how some really well versed in digital world can still be sucked in by the usual 2ch bullshit. I have five systems myself, but you just sound like an audiophool so far....

OK,. let's have it out... exactly what bullshit do you refer to? Stop the ad hominem attacks and specifically lay it out. WHY do I sound like a fool?

Why do you consider yourself an audio guru?

And what kind of audio systems do you have? Bose bipolar?

 

[tonyE]

Let alone that P7 not being particularly hi-fi, at least not any more than a modern avr....

Sure, sure, sure.... the electronics and sound quality of that P7 blow away the consumer boxes... have you ever even heard it?

Of course, for true 2channel I have a CJ PV( (with teflon caps ), a CJ ET3SE, a couple of First Watt B1s (and B1 Korg), a transformer TPV unit and now a couple of neat ones in production: voltage gain via transformer and current drive via JFETs with no feedback, no degeneration and no voltage gain....

 

[lovinthehd]

OK,. let's have it out... exactly what bullshit do you refer to? Stop the ad hominem attacks and specifically lay it out. WHY do I sound like a fool?

Why do you consider yourself an audio guru?

And what kind of audio systems do you have? Bose bipolar?

LOL feeling a bit feisty, eh? No, am not a self-appointed audio guru but I have quite a bit of experience as well as reading on the subject. Your avr comments make you sound like a fool. I like old and crotchety to an extent, as that's me too.

 

[lovinthehd]

Sure, sure, sure.... the electronics and sound quality of that P7 blow away the consumer boxes... have you ever even heard it?

Of course, for true 2channel I have a CJ PV( (with teflon caps ), a CJ ET3SE, a couple of First Watt B1s (and B1 Korg), a transformer TPV unit and now a couple of neat ones in production: voltage gain via transformer and current drive via JFETs with no feedback, no degeneration and no voltage gain....

LOL "hearing" it. How quaint that you have golden ears and can distinguish electronics so handily! Your name dropping is lacking.