Should I buy an integrated

[caioferrari]

Hi
I have a pair of Revel M105 and a DIY sub that probably will be upgraded to an KEF Kube 12. As a amp, I use a Marantz NR1504.

I never cared too much about amp because I used to have a Klipsch RB51 II witch is not a great speaker and aways needed a lot of EQ to sound good. So, having an EQ and room correction was a great deal for me.

With the Revel, it different. It’s a great speaker that sound WORSE with room correction. So, apparently I don't need the extra features of an AVR (maybe just the high pass filter for the bookshelf) and I was thinking: Would I get a better sounding experience getting an integrated?

My options here in Brazil are:
Hegel H95 USD1740
Marantz PM7000N USD1480
Denon PMA900HNE USD1000
Denon PMA1700HNE USD1940

 

[lovinthehd]

None of those provide a high pass for your speakers that I can see, typical of 2ch integrated amps (altho one unit had a low pass filter for a sub, that just seems redundant but there wasn't much detail either). The amp sections aren't particularly powerful, maybe a slight advantage over your current slimline avr, tho I'd just add a power amp to the avr myself and have bass management.

 

[caioferrari]

None of those provide a high pass for your speakers that I can see, typical of 2ch integrated amps (altho one unit had a low pass filter for a sub, that just seems redundant but there wasn't much detail either). The amp sections aren't particularly powerful, maybe a slight advantage over your current slimline avr, tho I'd just add a power amp to the avr myself and have bass management.

Know they doesn’t have the HPF. I’m just don’t know if they’re really necessary since I don’t push my system to its limit.
My question is about sound quality, not power reserve.

 

[lovinthehd]

Know they doesn’t have the HPF. I’m just don’t know if they’re really necessary since I don’t push my system to its limit.
My question is about sound quality, not power reserve.

Misread your comment about the hpf. I'd prefer one myself for additional options when using a sub(s). I doubt there's any particular sound quality advantages with these integrated amps over your avr. Aside from amp reserves/impedance capabilities, which would take a significant change from that of your avr to be much different and the pre-outs on the avr give you the capability of having better amp sections than any of these integrateds. Integrateds just aren't that cost effective IMO.

 

[caioferrari]

Misread your comment about the hpf. I'd prefer one myself for additional options when using a sub(s). I doubt there's any particular sound quality advantages with these integrated amps over your avr. Aside from amp reserves/impedance capabilities, which would take a significant change from that of your avr to be much different and the pre-outs on the avr give you the capability of having better amp sections than any of these integrateds. Integrateds just aren't that cost effective IMO.

I doubt that too, but there is a lot of people over the internet saying that an integrated sound better than an average price AVR…

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I doubt that too, but there is a lot of people over the internet saying that an integrated sound better than an average price AVR…

There’s a lot of everything on the internet and everywhere else.

To me, an integrated amp like a Yamaha has great aesthetics and will sound good, but not sound any better than an AVR.

I wish the Yamaha AVR’s (at least the flagship) use the exact aesthetic as their integrated amps.

 

[ben_]

If our perception of sound is swayed by our perception of the aesthetics of the equipment, something that looks that good might actually sound better, subjectively.

 

[ski2xblack]

No mention of room size, distances, or preferred listening levels, which may come into play. The Revel's impedance is on the low side, and they are not terribly sensitive,, so trying to fill a large space may tax the AVR.

The speakers are where 99% of audible tells arise from, and you chose well, so you have that particular problem solved.

If the Marantz is causing any audible tells I would be very surprised, but it's not exactly ideal for low impedance, low sensitivity speakers. It does have pre-outs, so external amplification is an option.

Having bass management offers marginally lower IM distortion and protection from being over-driven, but to get that in a stereo integrated is cost prohibitive, not to mention being hard to find. (Outlaw and Parasound are options, with crude but effective bass management, if they're available in your area.) And your AVR already does all that, so I don't see the need in your case.

 

[PENG]

I doubt that too, but there is a lot of people over the internet saying that an integrated sound better than an average price AVR…

I actually have no doubt that a well spec'ed integrated amp such as the PM8006, A23+, A-S1100, or even the NR1200, DRA-900H, will give you better sound quality if you push the volume to the clipping point of the NR1504. At lower volume, then no, there won't be audible improvements, no evidence to support that it would at all.

The M105 had relatively low sensitivity, so giving it enough juice is key to better sound quality, if you listen to high enough spl from even 3 to 4 meters.

A Marantz non slim line AVR such as the Cinema 40, Denon AVR-X4800H, Yamaha RX-A6A, Onkyo RZ50 will be as good as any Integrated amps. There is no special magic in integrated amps in terms of audibly better sound quaility of the AVRs mentioned. People often say avrs are not good for music listening because there are too many things jammed into one box, and/or they have weak power supplies, that could all be true, but we should not generalize, and instead of assuming, we should back it up with facts such as specs verifed by bench measurements.

Room correction such as Audyssey XT32 and Dirac Live will give you more accurate sound quality then using integrated amps. If the Revel sounds worse with RC than without, I would suugest you do some troubleshooting, though "better sound quality" could be highly sujective too so anything is possible if you rely on subjective measurements.

 

[lovinthehd]

I doubt that too, but there is a lot of people over the internet saying that an integrated sound better than an average price AVR…

Yes, I see that all the time, doesn't jive with my experience over the years. Just not enough sales of 2ch integrated let alone their limited feature set to be very competitive, plus I like multich audio.

 

[caioferrari]

There’s a lot of everything on the internet and everywhere else.

There is everything. Since I don‘t have a store to buy and return the equipment, I need to have 100% sure before buying something.

No mention of room size, distances, or preferred listening levels, which may come into play. The Revel's impedance is on the low side, and they are not terribly sensitive,, so trying to fill a large space may tax the AVR.

I didn’t mention room or distances because I don’t feel lack of power. It was all about sound quality.

I actually have no doubt that a well spec'ed integrated amp such as the PM8006, A23+, A-S1100, or even the NR1200, DRA-900H, will give you better sound quality if you push the volume to the clipping point of the NR1504. At lower volume, then no, there won't be audible improvements, no evidence to support that it would at all.

The M105 had relatively low sensitivity, so giving it enough juice is key to better sound quality, if you listen to high enough spl from even 3 to 4 meters.

I never push the volume too hard, I never passed the - 20 dB. If it’s well calibrated it’s 1/100 of the max receiver power.

Room correction such as Audyssey XT32 and Dirac Live will give you more accurate sound quality then using integrated amps. If the Revel sounds worse with RC than without, I would suugest you do some troubleshooting, though "better sound quality" could be highly sujective too so anything is possible if you rely on subjective measurements.

Audyssey XT32 is waaaay better than the Audissey built in on energy level Marantz/Denon receivers.

 

[lovinthehd]

Curious, just what "sound quality" would be improved by an integrated amp? Especially since it seems the avr works well for you now. Before avrs I used separates, as integrated amps were just receivers without a tuner section

Curious, can you use the Audyssey editor app with your Marantz? XT and XT32 are steps above basic MultEQ, tho.

 

[Steve81]

I didn’t mention room or distances because I don’t feel lack of power. It was all about sound quality.

Amplification is all about providing adequate power to the speakers with minimal distortion. If the sound is clean and clear with the Marantz at your preferred listening levels, there’s nothing more to gain.

 

[ski2xblack]

I didn’t mention room or distances because I don’t feel lack of power. It was all about sound quality.

In that case it's time to kick back and enjoy the music!

FWIW, I run an essentially similar rig in the office, insensitive/4 ohm speakers, Marantz slimline AVR for bass management, with an external amp capable of far more clean power than the Marantz, ~250w into 4 ohms. Overkill? Maybe. But power demands dont scale linearly, but rather logarithmically, and thus those dynamic peaks require far more power than you might expect.

And while I'm sure I could get the Marantz to clip, even at only moderate levels, would it be audible? No. Occasional, transient clipping probably isn't audible. With the external amp, it's just not an issue, following the "too much is just enough" approach to adequate power and no clipping, ever.

If your new Revels and listening habits haven't caused audible distortion or triggered thermal protection nanny curcuits, don't worry about it and enjoy the music. If, on the other hand, you go full OCD audio nut and want to avoid any and all clipping, check out Buckeye Amps, who offer really good value hypex based amps.

 

[Cos]

I have a similar setup, I have the M106s.

I was really debating going receiver vs integrated. One of the deciding factors is that I did not want the temptation to add more speakers LOL.

I did go with a Marantz 40n Integrated

• I wanted an HDMI w/Arc as I also use this for 2 Channel on my TV
• I needed a sub out
• Networked both ethernet and wifi / bluetooth
• I also wanted a good integrated Phono Pramp, which this has
• Build quality is insanely good (Made in Japan)
• Not as feature rich as others, and no room correction, but built like a tank and can handle my speakers like a champ.
• 70w x 2 8ohm / 100w x 2 4ohm was more than enough power to drive these loud enough for me
• In an 14x18 room w/acoustic treatments.
• You can't use an external amp, so you need to be happy with that power

There are lots of options and many different price points. I agree, that in most cases, you probably won't notice a difference between an integrated and a receiver.

 

[caioferrari]

That's it, guys!
I'm going to stick with my NR1504. The power is more than adequate for me and I'll not risk money on the promising of a quality increase that is not measurable.

 

[PENG]

That's it, guys!
I'm going to stick with my NR1504. The power is more than adequate for me and I'll not risk money on the promising of a quality increase that is not measurable.

Most people don't need more than 1 watt average with relatively sensitive speakers and don't sit too far. It's the peaks, (and only the big ones that may exist in certain music and movie contents) that could push the smaller amps or receivers to their clipping points. As long as your NR1504 won't be pushed too close to its clipping point then you are fine.