RB-1092 running Def Tech BP7004's....... Thoughts?

damnngina15

damnngina15

Junior Audioholic
Hi everyone,

I am looking for some opinions with a possible setup I might run. I currently have a Denon AVR-2808 running a set of Def Tech BP7004's and a CLR 2300 center (I have the surround BPX's currently in storage due to my living room layout as I relocate frequently due to work). I have an Apple TV 4K and Echo Cube going into an 82" Samsung Q6 with a Toslink cable running from the TV to the Denon for audio. I have been running this setup since 2009 and have been ok with it, but was never quite blown away as I felt like something was missing, almost as if the subs were too much for the upper-section of the 7004's, even after adjusting there levels on the receiver and on the speakers. I replaced their amps in 2018 and have moved between multiple homes and it has been the same issue. I recently came across an RB-1092 that I could get for dirt cheap (coworker is moving and doesn't have the room in his new place for his HT setup). I would use the RB-1092 to run the 7004's and the Denon to serve as a pre/pro for the mains and take care of the center for the time being.

I remember reading a couple reviews when the BP7004's first came out that said you really need a separate amp to make them open up and was just wondering if the 1092 would due the trick.

I cannot try it out for another month as my coworker is currently out of the country so just looking for some advice and opinions or if anyone has had a setup like this and would like to share their experiences with it.

I am not looking to get a whole new receiver. Use will be 50/50 HT/music. My room is has walls on 2.5 sides and then open up to the rest of the house. Looking forward for any help or opinions. Thanks.
 
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damnngina15

damnngina15

Junior Audioholic
@lovinthehd thanks for your reply. My seating is about 10 feet away.There is a full wall behind the speakers, one to the left of the speakers and a half wall on the right and in the back (essentially the room is a rectangular “C” shape opening to the back right. I did the calculator you mentioned it it said I would be at 118 db SPL at listening position While there is no doubt it will get loud, I’m just wondering if it will fill that void I feel the upper section of the towers is missing.
IMG_1341.jpeg
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
@lovinthehd thanks for your reply. My seating is about 10 feet away.There is a full wall behind the speakers, one to the left of the speakers and a half wall on the right and in the back (essentially the room is a rectangular “C” shape opening to the back right. I did the calculator you mentioned it it said I would be at 118 db SPL at listening position While there is no doubt it will get loud, I’m just wondering if it will fill that void I feel the upper section of the towers is missing.
View attachment 62129
That Rotel amp can drive your speakers to well over 105 dB for sure. Reference level is 105 dB peak and that is too loud for most people. The Rotel is not going to do anything for two channel listening because your Denon avr can also drive your speakers to reference level from 10 ft. It is true that reviewers often would say you need more power to "open" speakers up, that could true in some cases, but in many cases, those were just bs, or hedging. They might say that so if you bought the speakers, don't like them, they could say, I don't you these speakers need more power to sound good. It's almost silly, and sad for such bs to flood the internet, but it is what it is, people just have to do their own research before spending big money on amps that they may not need. You are doing the smart thing to do your research before making a decision on this purchase. Mind you, in most cases, it is better to have power you don't need than power you need but don't have.

You will likely get the "wow" you are looking for by going with better quality contents than Apple music and using the TV output to feed the Denon.

Also, many people will say better DACs with better specs on paper, won't make audible difference, but in this case, a good source (high quality recording content) with a <$150 (even <$100) DAC such as those from SMSL or Toppings using analog input to the Denon and listen in direct mode would likely make a difference too.

If that doesn't do it, then I would say replace those speakers. @AcuDefTechGuy, who used to like his Def Tech speakers (that's long time ago, he moved on since...) may be able to give you a better idea on whether those Def Tech 7004 can benefit from that 500 W rated Rotel RB-1092.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
That Rotel amp can drive your speakers to well over 105 dB for sure. Reference level is 105 dB peak and that is too loud for most people. The Rotel is not going to do anything for two channel listening because your Denon avr can also drive your speakers to reference level from 10 ft. It is true that reviewers often would say you need more power to "open" speakers up, that could true in some cases, but in many cases, those were just bs, or hedging. They might say that so if you bought the speakers, don't like them, they could say, I don't you these speakers need more power to sound good. It's almost silly, and sad for such bs to flood the internet, but it is what it is, people just have to do their own research before spending big money on amps that they may not need. You are doing the smart thing to do your research before making a decision on this purchase. Mind you, in most cases, it is better to have power you don't need than power you need but don't have.

You will likely get the "wow" you are looking for by going with better quality contents than Apple music and using the TV output to feed the Denon.

Also, many people will say better DACs with better specs on paper, won't make audible difference, but in this case, a good source (high quality recording content) with a <$150 (even <$100) DAC such as those from SMSL or Toppings using analog input to the Denon and listen in direct mode would likely make a difference too.

If that doesn't do it, then I would say replace those speakers. @AcuDefTechGuy, who used to like his Def Tech speakers (that's long time ago, he moved on since...) may be able to give you a better idea on whether those Def Tech 7004 can benefit from that 500 W rated Rotel RB-1092.
I used to own their flagship BP7000SC (front mains) and BP7001SC (surrounds) which are much bigger than the BP7004. I only use an AVR. Can’t remember exactly which one now. It was either a HK or Denon x3000 series AVR. Sat about 12FT away. Volume was as loud as ever. Never needed any other amps to sound great or extremely loud. :D

Yeah, they don’t need much power. I think my CLR3000 (center) “dipped” down to 2.7 ohms and the BP7000/7001 “dipped” down to 3.7 ohms or something close. Didn’t matter. My AVR did just fine no matter what.
 
ban25

ban25

Audioholic
Maybe try adjusting the tone controls (GEQ in the Denon) a bit to reduce the bass if you feel it's too much.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hi everyone,

I am looking for some opinions with a possible setup I might run. I currently have a Denon AVR-2808 running a set of Def Tech BP7004's and a CLR 2300 center (I have the surround BPX's currently in storage due to my living room layout as I relocate frequently due to work). I have an Apple TV 4K and Echo Cube going into an 82" Samsung Q6 with a Toslink cable running from the TV to the Denon for audio. I have been running this setup since 2009 and have been ok with it, but was never quite blown away as I felt like something was missing, almost as if the subs were too much for the upper-section of the 7004's, even after adjusting there levels on the receiver and on the speakers. I replaced their amps in 2018 and have moved between multiple homes and it has been the same issue. I recently came across an RB-1092 that I could get for dirt cheap (coworker is moving and doesn't have the room in his new place for his HT setup). I would use the RB-1092 to run the 7004's and the Denon to serve as a pre/pro for the mains and take care of the center for the time being.

I remember reading a couple reviews when the BP7004's first came out that said you really need a separate amp to make them open up and was just wondering if the 1092 would due the trick.

I cannot try it out for another month as my coworker is currently out of the country so just looking for some advice and opinions or if anyone has had a setup like this and would like to share their experiences with it.

I am not looking to get a whole new receiver. Use will be 50/50 HT/music. My room is has walls on 2.5 sides and then open up to the rest of the house. Looking forward for any help or opinions. Thanks.
Buying a bigger amp, will not help lousy speakers.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
@lovinthehd thanks for your reply. My seating is about 10 feet away.There is a full wall behind the speakers, one to the left of the speakers and a half wall on the right and in the back (essentially the room is a rectangular “C” shape opening to the back right. I did the calculator you mentioned it it said I would be at 118 db SPL at listening position While there is no doubt it will get loud, I’m just wondering if it will fill that void I feel the upper section of the towers is missing.
View attachment 62129
Yes, more amp than one would need, particularly for your speakers which would likely just melt down if you fed them full power. If dirt cheap and functional, could well be a good amp buy, but may make little difference in your use. I don't know what you feel the upper part of your speakers are lacking in, can you describe that more? Whether you had the lower sections (the powered woofers I assume) properly matched up level wise hard to know, so might describe how you set them up particularly. What is your current avr?
 
damnngina15

damnngina15

Junior Audioholic
Thanks everyone for your input. I can get the RB-1092 for next to nothing so that is the main reason I am looking at getting it. Eventually I would like to replace my 7004s but that is something for another day. Like I said in my original post, I have tried different placements, different rooms, multiple variations of crossover points, levels on both the denon and the amp on the back of the 7004s and unless I turn the subs all the way down, it constantly feels like they are over powering the upper section (5.25" mids and 1" tweeter for those that need me to break it down). As far as the listening position goes, yes I sit 10 feet away from the speakers when I am watching a movie and its plenty loud for that, but the rest of the time when I play music the Denon seems to lack having enough left in the tank since this area opens up to the rest of the kitchen, dining and living area. I'll probably end up getting it anyway since its closer to the 7004s wattage rating of 300 watts (denon only puts out 110 wpc I believe)and if anything I will have it on hand for a future setup.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks everyone for your input. I can get the RB-1092 for next to nothing so that is the main reason I am looking at getting it. Eventually I would like to replace my 7004s but that is something for another day. Like I said in my original post, I have tried different placements, different rooms, multiple variations of crossover points, levels on both the denon and the amp on the back of the 7004s and unless I turn the subs all the way down, it constantly feels like they are over powering the upper section (5.25" mids and 1" tweeter for those that need me to break it down). As far as the listening position goes, yes I sit 10 feet away from the speakers when I am watching a movie and its plenty loud for that, but the rest of the time when I play music the Denon seems to lack having enough left in the tank since this area opens up to the rest of the kitchen, dining and living area. I'll probably end up getting it anyway since its closer to the 7004s wattage rating of 300 watts (denon only puts out 110 wpc I believe)and if anything I will have it on hand for a future setup.
I assume your Denon has pre-outs to use an external amp with? The max wattage rating is rather useless except as a guideline as to when damage may be incurred.

How did you level match the powered woofers with the upper section? By ear? With an spl meter? There should be a point where the two are somewhat balanced at least, altho your preference may be different, or your woofers perhaps have higher spl capabilities. Overall your speakers are much more likely to be the limits here than the amp you use.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks everyone for your input. I can get the RB-1092 for next to nothing so that is the main reason I am looking at getting it.
If next to nothing means literally next to nothing, such as less than $200 then go for it, as long as it is in working order. Otherwise it will just take up space for no good reason.

Denon seems to lack having enough left in the tank since this area opens up to the rest of the kitchen, dining and living area
I am curious to know the reason for that, opens up to those larger space does not have much effects if you listen only 10 ft from the speakers. By the way, when you feel the Denon lacking in the tank, what would be the volume setting? If it is at below say, -20, just crank it up to -15, even -10 should not result in audible distortion. Also, with Denon, if you listen at well below volume 0, you should turn on DEQ, and you end up with too much base, then try reducing the subwoofer level until you like the balance.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I sit 10 feet away from the speakers when I am watching a movie and its plenty loud for that, but the rest of the time when I play music the Denon seems to lack having enough left in the tank since this area opens up to the rest of the kitchen, dining and living area.
It doesn’t matter if your room opens up to the rest of the world. It only matter how far you sit from them, which is ONLY 10 FT.

OK, do this one simple TRICK. On your TRIMS (speaker channel levels), manually increase all of them by 6dB. So if your Front Left is at 0.0dB, increase it to +6., etc. Then tell us if you FEEL the power is better.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Imo if the amp is really almost free, I would get it just because. It won’t address the problem with the top end/mid range but it sure won’t hurt anything. The real problem is really the speakers. That’s where I would put money towards. And then when you new/better speakers, you’ll have a cool amp to drive them!eq is a possible “help” but you can’t go in blind. It’s just time for new speakers…
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Imo if the amp is really almost free, I would get it just because. It won’t address the problem with the top end/mid range but it sure won’t hurt anything.
Unless the amp is FAULTY.

Why is this amp costing almost NOTHING? What’s the catch?
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I would try hooking up another source to one of the other aux analog inputs, such as a PC just to see what it does.

Most people (including me) I know who moved a lot, didn't have a lot of furnishings, and lived in places with low maintenance shiny reflective floors and surfaces, and with very little clutter. Add to that, open floor plans with wonky ceilings and other architectural quirks, and any notion of favorable acoustic concerns go even further down the list. Not saying this is your case specifically, but I have been in some awful acoustic spaces, including my own at times. Half of why I took a break from serious audio for a few years when I was on the move a lot. Only thing I could get satisfaction from was headphones, car audio, and my desktop 2.1 setups.

I always had to find the natural sweet spot of my system and furnish accordingly within that, instead of trying to furnish first, and then force a favorable one there instead. Either that or I would have to have one for TV, and a totally different one for music. Other places, I had to move the speakers out into the room when serious listening, and move them back out f the way for when not in use, or for just ambient duties. Also, I always had a good area rug to put down, for those dreadful places with tile floors.

Often times with trying to keep with a certain interior decor aesthetic, people fail to place the speakers optimally, or try toeing them in or out. More often than not, that makes all the difference. And when all else fails, start out extreme near field and work your way back.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I assume your Denon has pre-outs to use an external amp with? The max wattage rating is rather useless except as a guideline as to when damage may be incurred.

How did you level match the powered woofers with the upper section? By ear? With an spl meter? There should be a point where the two are somewhat balanced at least, altho your preference may be different, or your woofers perhaps have higher spl capabilities. Overall your speakers are much more likely to be the limits here than the amp you use.
Good point, he said it's an AVR-2808, if he meant X2808H (edit: X2800H), then there would be no pre outs. If it actually is the old avr-2808CI, then yes they have pre outs.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Good point, he said it's an AVR-2808, if he meant X2808H, then there would be no pre outs. If it actually is the old avr-2808CI, then yes they have pre outs.
I didn't see a model mentioned, but the 2808 does have 110wpc (and a full set of pre-outs). There would be no X2808, tho....
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I didn't see a model mentioned, but the 2808 does have 110wpc (and a full set of pre-outs). There would be no X2808, tho....
My mistake, I meant x2800H. Anyway, he mentioned he had the avr-2800 in his first post.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
My mistake, I meant x2800H. Anyway, he mentioned he had the avr-2800 in his first post.
LOL I see it now, but twice before missed it! Seems I need to wear my reading glasses more and more :)
 

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