Marantz AV 10 15.4CH AV Processor Bench Test Results!

[gene]

OK guys I figured it out and it's a bit crazy. First, I didn't have auto-tracking enabled on my Vsweep test. The only way to get their 106dB SINAD is to adjust the Master Vol to 82.5dB using a 0dBFS input signal which corresponds to 4Vrms output. The problem when doing Vsweep vs distortion tests is that won't run the preamp into clipping since it's capable of outputting 12Vrms. Once I adjust the master volume up, SINAD gets reduced at all levels. See attached graphs.

Master Vol: 82.5dB, HDMI Input 0dBFs

Here I plot output level vs distortion. As you can see with the Master set to 82.5, I can get the 106dB SINAD but there isn't enough drive to reach clipping. I had to increase the Master Vol to 95dB and rerun the test to get to max level but SINAD suffered as a result.

 

[dlaloum]

It will hit rated power with 1 or up to 7CH driven as per my bench tests. It's a very interesting amp. Does great ACD but has no headroom above rated power. I will be discussing this in my test report.

That seems to have become (be coming?) the norm, in the age of Class D amps...

Peak power becomes a relatively redundant spec under the circumstances.

 

[gene]

I made some updates to the published test report on the SINAD graphs based on using the proper "Auto tracking" in the test sweeps. I also replicated the Marantz test conditions to reproduce their results. Man this preamp is even better than I thought

 

[PENG]

OK guys I figured it out and it's a bit crazy. First, I didn't have auto-tracking enabled on my Vsweep test. The only way to get their 106dB SINAD is to adjust the Master Vol to 82.5dB using a 0dBFS input signal which corresponds to 4Vrms output. The problem when doing Vsweep vs distortion tests is that won't run the preamp into clipping since it's capable of outputting 12Vrms. Once I adjust the master volume up, SINAD gets reduced at all levels. See attached graphs.

View attachment 61681
Master Vol: 82.5dB, HDMI Input 0dBFs

View attachment 61682
Here I plot output level vs distortion. As you can see with the Master set to 82.5, I can get the 106dB SINAD but there isn't enough drive to reach clipping. I had to increase the Master Vol to 95dB and rerun the test to get to max level but SINAD suffered as a result.

Like I said, among other things, methodology might have been different, hence a few dB difference in results is always possible when comparing results from different benches.

Many thanks for keep working on finding out the cause(s). Again, it is much appreciated!

 

[PENG]

View attachment 61675

I'm using filter 2. Which I guess is the Denon way as you said.

Thank you for saving me time reading up on the manual. So, as expected, your so call "on/off" is actually filter 1/filter 2 selection.

Now more on your question about the differences, one of the best article I could find on the internet are the following, and it actually uses the AK4490 DAC IC that is used in the original AV8805 and the Denon flagship AVRs so that is good. The ES9018K2M they use now in the AV 10 and A1H is not the same but similar in principle, when it comes to the filter choices.

DAC digital filters part 2 – deeper dive into AK4490 and AK4493 filters - nihtila.com

There are five filters in AK4490, named in datasheet as follows:

• Sharp
• Slow
• Short Delay Sharp (SD Sharp)
• Short Delay Slow (SD Slow)
• Super Slow

Sharp filters
Sharp filters offer technically great performance and the best measurement results. These filters are steep in frequency domain and effectively filter out high frequency components above Nyquist frequency. One reason to start using oversampling DACs and digital filters was to achieve this behaviour and ease requirements for the analog output filter.

While having clean spectrum, tradeoff is excessive ringing in time domain. This ringing can happen not only after a sharp edge but also before which sounds counter-intuitive – we see the effect of an edge already before the edge. It’s not black magic though but due to long filter length which also delays the signal. We may not see the edge yet but it is already in the filter when we see the pre-ringing.

Slow filters
Slow filters are not as steep in frequency domain so more higher frequency components come through. This can lead to heavily distorted signal on the higher end of audio spectrum.

Flipside here is that time domain looks cleaner with sharp edges without excessive ringing.

In AK4490 and AK4493 there are two different slow filters and one super slow filter.

So, you can see that the Marantz AV8805 has 3 slow filters but there is no option to choose. If I remember right, Marantz used the short delay slow one but I am not 100% sure. No one knows which one of the ES9018K2M filter they used, yet...

Without getting too technical, based on the above, you can see the trade-off and that's really what Marantz's design team was counting on, to give what they claim to have aimed for the Marantz "warm" and "musical" sound vs Denon's. It's not the HDAM nonsense (I am saying this as an EE, but actually based on simple logic that just about anyone can understand if they can read their published block diagrams). It is indeed the slow filter that is responsible. Somewhere in those Masimo video and/or technical articles actually mentioned that, so it's not just my opinion.

Having said that, in my opinion (yes now it is just my opinion, albeit an educated opinion), it's still mainly theoretical. The slow filter, in the AV8805's DAC resulted in a slight roll off, topped out by about -2.5 dB by the time it reached 20 kHz (our hearing limit). The graph below is for the 7705 because Amir did not do it for the 8805, but the results will be identical as frequency response of those DACs are the same, basically flat except when the slow filters are used.

So can we hear the difference between a flat line FR and one that rolls off so slightly, I doubt it, especially if you are over 40.

As for the "ringing" and distortion difference, if you search hard enough you will come across some blind tests done by audiophiles, and there was no evidence that those who claimed to have the golden ears actually pass blind listening tests (unless I missed some.)

In addition, the roll off part really only affect contents with sampling rate 44.1 kHz, at higher rate, even 48 kHz (with Audyssey in use, as an example), FR should be nearly flat even at 20 kHz, and at 88.1, 96 kHz, it will be flat for sure in the audible range so there will be no roll off.

Just an aside, all these, should have no effects obviously, if analog inputs and direct mode are used. So overall I dare say (opinion, not facts) the vast majority of those who heard the "Marantz sound" only heard it because they were conditioned by the hearsay, groupthink on the internet forums and/or marketing info/hype.

 

[DigitalDawn]

Unfortunately, no. I've been asking for this too.

Bummer. Trinnov can do this, but the difference in price is not small.

 

[austinbirdman]

Gene, with these specs and features, would you say this is a pre-pro that can double as a high-fidelity stereo preamp, giving a strong all-in-one option for shuttling between home theater and dedicated music listening?

 

[multisport4me]

Gene, with these specs and features, would you say this is a pre-pro that can double as a high-fidelity stereo preamp, giving a strong all-in-one option for shuttling between home theater and dedicated music listening?

You didn't ask me but I will tell you, that is exactly what I do. I have a Roon Rock connected to the AV10 via HDMI and also a Eversolo Z8 DAC routed into the AV10 XLR inputs. I use both, depending on track. I am shocked just how nice this setup can sound. Now will it please the 2-channel purist that thinks a $15,000 power cable has "removed a wet towel that was covering their speakers?" Doubtful. But in reality, I think the AV10 has brought us to the very edge of diminishing returns for both HT and Hi-Fi. ...or at least I'm happy....for now.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

With SINAD of 108dB, THD+N of 0.0003, I think the AV10 measures better than most standalone preamps.

Now if you don’t believe in measurement, I guess you could say whatever.

 

[ban25]

You didn't ask me but I will tell you, that is exactly what I do. I have a Roon Rock connected to the AV10 via HDMI and also a Eversolo Z8 DAC routed into the AV10 XLR inputs. I use both, depending on track. I am shocked out how nice this setup can sound. Now will it please the 2-channel purist that thinks a $15,000 power cable has "removed a wet towel that was covering their speakers?" Doubtful. But in reality, I think the AV10 has brought us to the very edge of diminishing returns for both HT and Hi-Fi. ...or at least I'm happy....for now.

The AV10 looks absolutely incredible. I'm jealous. The main reason I went with the Integra DRX-8.4 is Roon Ready, so at least I don't have to run an outboard streamer or bridge (or use the RHEOS extension, which honestly is quite good).

 

[multisport4me]

The AV10 looks absolutely incredible. I'm jealous. The main reason I went with the Integra DRX-8.4 is Roon Ready, so at least I don't have to run an outboard streamer or bridge (or use the RHEOS extension, which honestly is quite good).

Yea, the AV10 is supposedly Roon Ready but from what I can tell its only via AirPlay. Is the RHEOS extension run on a Roon Server or can it be run on Roon Rock? I think I looked into this and it looked like a PITA so I just built a Rock using a NUC11 and Akasa fanless case. Works like a charm. The Z8 DAC is nice but the PMA-A6 will allow me to run USB from the Rock to it then HDMI Audio out and into the AV10. The analog XLR and nice DAC in the Z8 (soon to be DMA-A6) is just a fun option as well should there be a format that the HDMI Audio out or HDMI input of the AV10 won't support.

 

[gene]

Gene, with these specs and features, would you say this is a pre-pro that can double as a high-fidelity stereo preamp, giving a strong all-in-one option for shuttling between home theater and dedicated music listening?

Absolutely. The AV 10 preamp is serious business. This outperforms even the Storm Audio processor and I suspect Trinnov as well. Neither Storm of Trinnov have an analog bypass or phono stage.

 

[ban25]

Yea, the AV10 is supposedly Roon Ready but from what I can tell its only via AirPlay. Is the RHEOS extension run on a Roon Server or can it be run on Roon Rock? I think I looked into this and it looked like a PITA so I just built a Rock using a NUC11 and Akasa fanless case. Works like a charm. The Z8 DAC is nice but the PMA-A6 will allow me to run USB from the Rock to it then HDMI Audio out and into the AV10. The analog XLR and nice DAC in the Z8 (soon to be DMA-A6) is just a fun option as well should there be a format that the HDMI Audio out or HDMI input of the AV10 won't support.

Yeah, the AV10 is "Roon Tested" which just means that you can stream to it with AirPlay 2 at up to 16-bit/44.1 kHz. But with the RHEOS extension, you get high-resolution playback up to 24-bit/192 kHz and pretty seamless integration with Roon itself.

GitHub - LINVALE/RHEOS

Contribute to LINVALE/RHEOS development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

Rock is just a stripped down Linux distro with enough dependencies installed to run Roon and nothing more. You can probably get extensions up and running (requires node.js & npm), but it would be easier with Roon Core on a standard Linux server. But you don't need to run it on the same machine! You could run it on your PC if you like. Roon Extension Manager is another project that lets you easily install and manage multiple extensions and it's pretty easy to get up and running on anything:

Installation

Roon Extension for managing Roon Extensions. Contribute to TheAppgineer/roon-extension-manager development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

Aside from RHEOS, I also run a volume/source extension for my Rotel integrated that basically brings Rotel pretty close to Roon Ready.

 

[multisport4me]

Absolutely. The AV 10 preamp is serious business. This outperforms even the Storm Audio processor and I suspect Trinnov as well. Neither Storm of Trinnov have an analog bypass or phono stage.

Not to mention, neither of them have HDMI 2.1 yet, do they?

 

[dlaloum]

You didn't ask me but I will tell you, that is exactly what I do. I have a Roon Rock connected to the AV10 via HDMI and also a Eversolo Z8 DAC routed into the AV10 XLR inputs. I use both, depending on track. I am shocked just how nice this setup can sound. Now will it please the 2-channel purist that thinks a $15,000 power cable has "removed a wet towel that was covering their speakers?" Doubtful. But in reality, I think the AV10 has brought us to the very edge of diminishing returns for both HT and Hi-Fi. ...or at least I'm happy....for now.

The real challenge is not whether the AV10 achieves this....

It is whether there is an audible / perceptible difference when dropping down to X4800 or X3800 - or competitors like the Onkyo's, Yamahas and such.

In an era of democratisation of the high end technology, I am pretty sure that the AV10 is a long way down the path of diminishing returns - Like a traditional Aston Martin with "MORE than adequate power under any conditions" - one wonders whether the basic Toyota does as good a job, on anything short of a racetrack (or in our case a lab bench).

Looking at many of the tests, SINAD is in the same ballpark as that measured on the mass market models.... and talking about thresholds of audibility.... where does the threshold of diminishing returns begin? I think in US$ terms that threshold is somewhere south of US$3000.

And yes I am avoiding any discussions of power amp sections - as there are a bunch of other issues involved there, which can be heavily speaker dependent.

 

[lovinthehd]

So what makes the AV10 particularly worth $7k, tho?

 

[ban25]

So what makes the AV10 particularly worth $7k, tho?

It literally competes with the very top of the market (and beats that competition in many respects) at less than half the.price... $7K is honestly a tremendous deal for this processor.

 

[lovinthehd]

It literally competes with the very top of the market (and beats that competition in many respects) at less than half the.price... $7K is honestly a tremendous deal for this processor.

In what ways does it particularly exceed except in measurement? Is there an audible difference?

 

[multisport4me]

In what ways does it particularly exceed except in measurement? Is there an audible difference?

Well there is plenty of marketing materials, articles and forum posts available to tell you all that this AVP has to offer if this review doesn't impress you. And if none of those features excite you, then maybe this AVP is not for you. For me it has lots of features such as upmixers that I enjoy. It looks fantastic. It sounds fantastic. It has very cool bass management capabilities. It has two different room correction systems that I can store filters for in two presets to compare the two OR use one at night (e.g. Audyssey LFC feature or Dynamic EQ) and Dirac other times. Or one RC for movies the other for music. Oh and its by a company that has a long history of bringing very nice processors to market and its not OEM'd by some one-man show at an on-line bargain cable company that licensed some design by some small firm that never delivers on promised upgrades and has no in-house capability but that one guy to wait two years for features and fixes that never seem to come.

But as someone said above - beyond these very nice test results, there are our perceptions. Honestly, if we did one giant blind test of various speakers, processors, cables, amplifiers, in different rooms with different acoustics, etc. etc. I'm sure there would be some nice "value packages" of attractively priced "ingredients." But I don't have the time nor the patience nor have I ever seen such a blind test get together of that magnitude. So I rolled the dice and spent a little more than a third of what Storm and Trinnov charges and my perception is that this AVP nails it. For me. Maybe not you and that is, okay. However, if you have the chance, I highly recommend you audition one somewhere and decide for yourself if the price is justified. $7k is still a lot of money. But I don't regret spending it on this AVP - to me its worth every penny. You wanna play you've got to pay....the real trick is not to overpay. I don't think I did. Some may perceive they can do better for less. I would say, have at it.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well there is plenty of marketing materials, articles and forum posts available to tell you all that this AVP has to offer if this review doesn't impress you. And if none of those features excite you, then maybe this AVP is not for you. For me it has lots of features such as upmixers that I enjoy. It looks fantastic. It sounds fantastic. It has very cool bass management capabilities. It has two different room correction systems that I can store filters for in two presets to compare the two OR use one at night (e.g. Audyssey LFC feature or Dynamic EQ) and Dirac other times. Or one RC for movies the other for music. Oh and its by a company that has a long history of bringing very nice processors to market and its not OEM'd by some one-man show at an on-line bargain cable company that licensed some design by some small firm that never delivers on promised upgrades and has no in-house capability but that one guy to wait two years for features and fixes that never seem to come.

But as someone said above - beyond these very nice test results, there are our perceptions. Honestly, if we did one giant blind test of various speakers, processors, cables, amplifiers, in different rooms with different acoustics, etc. etc. I'm sure there would be some nice "value packages" of attractively priced "ingredients." But I don't have the time nor the patience nor have I ever soon such a blind test get together of that magnitude. So I rolled the dice and spent a little more than a third of what Storm and Trinnov charges and my perception is that this AVP nails it. For me. Maybe not you and that is, okay. However, if you have the chance, I highly recommend you audition one somewhere and decide for yourself if the price is justified. $7k is still a lot of money. But I don't regret spending it on this AVP - to me its worth every penny. You wanna play you've got to pay....the real trick is not to overpay. I don't think I did. Some may perceive they can do better for less. I would say, have at it.

Lots of gear sounds fantastic no matter the "features". Marantz is more full of bullshit than Denon IME. Just my take in any case. I seriously doubt there's an audible difference with well setup and "lower" gear in the Marantz lineup. $7k is a lot of money for a pre-pro.