Marantz AV 10 15.4CH AV Processor Bench Test Results!

[multisport4me]

Lots of gear sounds fantastic no matter the "features". Marantz is more full of bullshit than Denon IME. Just my take in any case. I seriously doubt there's an audible difference with well setup and "lower" gear in the Marantz lineup. $7k is a lot of money for a pre-pro.

Got it. You no likey. Duly noted. Anything else?

 

[lovinthehd]

Got it. You no likey. Duly noted. Anything else?

I'm open to something new/different, just haven't seen that happening. I have several systems with a variety of ages of gear....it's not like year over year things actually change in fidelity particularly....

 

[multisport4me]

I'm open to something new/different, just haven't seen that happening. I have several systems with a variety of ages of gear....it's not like year over year things actually change in fidelity particularly....

I've been in this business and hobby for decades and I don't disagree in general. In the 80's I owned some killer Cerwin Vega speakers complete with the orange foam, a truly wonderful Yamaha integrated amp, a DBX noise reducer, a Teac tape cassette deck and a Denon DP59L turntable (that I still own) I thought it was the best thing next to being in the front row of a Rolling Stones concert in 1981.

Some of us think the $7k was worth the spend and some of us don't. You seem to be on the side of being unconvinced no matter what you read or perhaps hear. $7k is a lot of money.

 

[lovinthehd]

I've been in this business and hobby for decades and I don't disagree in general. In the 80's I owned some killer Cerwin Vega speakers complete with the orange foam, a truly wonderful Yamaha integrated amp, a DBX noise reducer, a Teac tape cassette deck and a Denon DP59L turntable (that I still own) I thought it was the best thing next to being in the front row of a Rolling Stones concert in 1981.

Some of us think the $7k was worth the spend and some of us don't. You seem to be on the side of being unconvinced no matter what you read or perhaps hear. $7k is a lot of money.

LOL I used to have CW speakers (after Advents when I needed to move cities and not take stuff with me)....they might have been a bit higher spl capable but weren't as good as the Advents. I still have my DBX 1BX dynamic range expander (and in use in my one 2ch system)....but my Audio Control graphic eq died years ago. I still have the Technics SL1200mk2 I bought in '85. I dumped my Teac cassette deck (a good one, forget the model) when digital became readily available, tho, especially portable cd players. I've spent a fair amount on audio gear over the years (and have 5 working systems, 4 multich and one 2ch). Didn't really add up the money but I can sell my Technics tt for more than I paid for it. I used to work on Stones concert tours, as well as Grateful Dead, Neil Diamond, Santana, Bob Dylan and a few others, too .

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It literally competes with the very top of the market (and beats that competition in many respects) at less than half the.price... $7K is honestly a tremendous deal for this processor.

Some of us think the $7k was worth the spend and some of us don't.

Well at least the AV10 cost less than the $7500 Denon AVP-A1HDCI I bought about 10 years ago.

Yeah back then I didn’t mind spending some money. I’ve said this before - if the AV10 were released 10 years ago, I would have paid $7K for it instead of paying $7500 for the Denon AVP-A1.

I suppose everything depends on the TIME we live in.

I think the key is the audio MARKET.

People buying AVP’s usually aren’t comparing them to AVR. And if they aren’t even looking at AVR, then what exactly are the salient factors to them?

SOTA measurements like SINAD of 108dB? Features? Subjective pride of ownership and prestige? Subjective SQ improvements?

 

[multisport4me]

I used to work on Stones concert tours, as well as Grateful Dead, Neil Diamond, Santana, Bob Dylan and a few others, too .

Well there you go then. You were probably the guy blasting me with a fire hose to back away from the stage at that Stone's concert.

Oh and thanks for reminding me what that DBX thing was called. Dynamic range expander - I forgot what it was called.

 

[multisport4me]

Well at least the AV10 cost less than the $7500 Denon AVP-A1HDCI I bought about 10 years ago.

Yea, I had that one too. I still have the POA-A1HDCI but its a door stopper. It's not like I can pick it up and take it to a repair shop. Literally...its 150lbs and I cannot move the thing. I love that amp though and wish it were still in my setup.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well there you go then. You were probably the guy blasting me with a fire hose to back away from the stage at that Stone's concert.

Oh and thanks for reminding me what that DBX thing was called. Dynamic range expander - I forgot what it was called.

DBX had a variety of gear. Dynamic Range Expanders were just one line. They made some interesting gear. The Dynamic Range Expander was sort of a weird reverb box. Made a lot vinyl sound a lot better!

 

[lovinthehd]

Yea, I had that one too. I still have the POA-A1HDCI but its a door stopper. It's not like I can pick it up and take it to a repair shop. Literally...its 150lbs and I cannot move the thing. I love that amp though and wish it were still in my setup.

Oh you and ADTG have so much to talk about. Ask him for a photo of the literal doorstop.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Oh you and ACTG have so much to talk about. Ask him for a photo of the literal doorstop.

Don’t remind me of the good old days.

Feels like another life ago when I was younger and crazier buying Salon2, 802D2, 201/2, Orion3.2.1, etc. Before I was paying $24K/YR x 4 YR for my daughter’s pharmacy school tuition.

 

[PENG]

Absolutely. The AV 10 preamp is serious business. This outperforms even the Storm Audio processor and I suspect Trinnov as well. Neither Storm of Trinnov have an analog bypass or phono stage.

Imo, Trinnov and Storm is better only if one needs more than 15 main channels and 4 sub channels immersive sound. Trinnov has the additional edge based on the belief/assumption that its RC is better than Dirac Live, but I think most would do well to consider the point of diminishing return vs the huge price gap.

 

[PENG]

I'm open to something new/different, just haven't seen that happening. I have several systems with a variety of ages of gear....it's not like year over year things actually change in fidelity particularly....

Denon's is not an option for those who prefers no internal power amps in their preamp processors. SU/Masimo killed that option, knowing that all else being equal, Marantz AVPs would ensure a higher profit margin than Denon AVPs. If they were to let Denon launch an updated AVP-A1HDCI, it was $7,500 in 2008, with inflation and the much added newest features, licensing fees etc., they would have to list it for >$15,000, that would be Trinnov's territory.

With Marantz they avoided the otherwise huge cost jump at the time SU acquired D and M, because Marantz's flagship AVP in 2008 was the AV8003 that TLSGuy probably have it in storage, or garage, was listed for $2,600 (1/3 or Denon's), soaked and wet with their usual copper plates and extra shielding kind of typically audio hype features. The 2012 AV8801 was listed for $3,599, still less than half of the Denon AVP at the time.

So, you may be right about Marantz extra bs vs Denon's plain old engineering (such as dual end to end differential topology, profit is king, that killed Denon AVPs for good. I am surprised they haven't killed off Denon's high end PMA-SX series integrated amps yet but probably soon.

The irony is, SU/Masim picked the lower priced products of the two brands to be their premium line (i.e. Nexus vs Toyota), that sounds like a wise move on their part, again, from potential profit standpoint.

 

[gene]

 

[dlaloum]

Lots of gear sounds fantastic no matter the "features". Marantz is more full of bullshit than Denon IME. Just my take in any case. I seriously doubt there's an audible difference with well setup and "lower" gear in the Marantz lineup. $7k is a lot of money for a pre-pro.

And value is in the eye of the beholder....

 

[dlaloum]

Denon's is not an option for those who prefers no internal power amps in their preamp processors. SU/Masimo killed that option, knowing that all else being equal, Marantz AVPs would ensure a higher profit margin than Denon AVPs. If they were to let Denon launch an updated AVP-A1HDCI, it was $7,500 in 2008, with inflation and the much added newest features, licensing fees etc., they would have to list it for >$15,000, that would be Trinnov's territory.

With Marantz they avoided the otherwise huge cost jump at the time SU acquired D and M, because Marantz's flagship AVP in 2008 was the AV8003 that TLSGuy probably have it in storage, or garage, was listed for $2,600 (1/3 or Denon's), soaked and wet with their usual copper plates and extra shielding kind of typically audio hype features. The 2012 AV8801 was listed for $3,599, still less than half of the Denon AVP at the time.

So, you may be right about Marantz extra bs vs Denon's plain old engineering (such as dual end to end differential topology, profit is king, that killed Denon AVPs for good. I am surprised they haven't killed off Denon's high end PMA-SX series integrated amps yet but probably soon.

The irony is, SU/Masim picked the lower priced products of the two brands to be their premium line (i.e. Nexus vs Toyota), that sounds like a wise move on their part, again, from potential profit standpoint.

Well that was their management's main complaint - margings were too low - they want the margins of D&M to match the margins they get from their medical gear...

Which is a big ask in a hobby like audio.

 

[dlaloum]

Well at least the AV10 cost less than the $7500 Denon AVP-A1HDCI I bought about 10 years ago.

Yeah back then I didn’t mind spending some money. I’ve said this before - if the AV10 were released 10 years ago, I would have paid $7K for it instead of paying $7500 for the Denon AVP-A1.

I suppose everything depends on the TIME we live in.

I think the key is the audio MARKET.

People buying AVP’s usually aren’t comparing them to AVR. And if they aren’t even looking at AVR, then what exactly are the salient factors to them?

SOTA measurements like SINAD of 108dB? Features? Subjective pride of ownership and prestige? Subjective SQ improvements?

There are those who either way will purchase at the top of the market... for a range of reasons.

For those who seek a more optimised value equation (read: one that is tilted towards being cheaper for performance provided) - midrange AVR's make excellent AVP's, and you can save on surround/height amps by using the internals - while dedicating high quality external amps for L/R or L/C/R.
And yes, typically you have to sacrifice Balanced (and/or) XLR connections. (although the current Integra 8.4 seems to provide those too)

Can you match the performance of $7k (or more) AVP's with a sub $2k AVR judiciously chosen, and a stereo power amp? - Yes for many configurations! An Integra 3.4, Onkyo RZ50, or Denon X3800, then add to it perhaps $800 for a power amp, and I doubt any golden ear could tell the difference "blind".

However, just as cheap Casio LCD watches, matched and in most cases outperformed Rolex Oysters... that did not reduce the market for Rolexes - there is pride of ownership, appreciation of workmanship and engineering, other aspects to the value equation (some of which come down to "bling" but not all).

In all the hardware failures I have had over the last 40 odd years in audio, I have never had a power amp failure (well not quite true, I did have some caps fail on a Quad 606, which I then had refurbished for less than 1/4 it's replacement price) - but I have had multiple AVR's fail - just never the power circuits, always the AVP part.... and have had to send them to the tip/landfill - but ultimately, I saved money on those deals.

 

[PENG]

Can you match the performance of $7k (or more) AVP's with a sub $2k AVR judiciously chosen, and a stereo power amp? - Yes for many configurations! An Integra 3.4, Onkyo RZ50, or Denon X3800, then add to it perhaps $800 for a power amp, and I doubt any golden ear could tell the difference "blind".

One of the worst myth is "integrated" amps are better for 2 channel music (I mean in sound quality), because they are dedicated for music and 2 serious 2 ch listening vs AVRs and AVPs that have too many junks squeezed in one box. Same for separate preamps, but at least there are some preamps that outperformed any or at least most AVRs and AVPs on test benches.

If you ask Gene, I bet he will agree that there may be one of two (Anthem STR comes to mind but even that one??) integrated amps he has ever measured with better results than the likes of the $7,500 Denon AVP, Yamaha's RX-Z11. Okay, that's based on just one metric THD+N, but if you look at the detailed measurements of those top notch AVRs/AVPs, they measured very well or extremely well on other metrics as well. It will be difficult to find one that measure with >100 dB SINAD that measured really poor on any other metric, vs integrated amps, yet the myth will continue...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Can you match the performance of $7k (or more) AVP's with a sub $2k AVR judiciously chosen, and a stereo power amp? - Yes for many configurations! An Integra 3.4, Onkyo RZ50, or Denon X3800, then add to it perhaps $800 for a power amp, and I doubt any golden ear could tell the difference "blind".

Again, depends on the definition of “performance“ and “worth”.

Not on the 108dB SINAD objective measurements. Maybe not on aesthetics. Definitely not on the pride of ownership.

Back about 10 years ago when I had the $5500 Denon AVR-5308, I still bought the $7500 Denon AVP-A1. I didn’t care. So people who buy the Marantz AV10 and AMP10 today aren’t going to care. Today in 2023, I wouldn’t even buy a $3K AVR, much less a $7K AVP.

But on the subjective opinions, sure anything goes.

I am sure someone out there will say a $500 AVR will sound just as good too. Yeah sure I think my much less expensive lowly Yamaha CX-A5100 AVP would sound just as good.

The AV10/AMP10 are obviously not for people like me who are only willing to buy less expensive alternatives because they have to pay $24K/year x 4 YR for their daughter’s tuition or whatever else.

 

[Nondemo01]

Nice try. The AV 10 goes in my family room system. Storm stays in the theater.

(I figured! Lol) Side note, I've conversed with you on other sites regarding the stability of all Denon and Marantz products. I've had a lot of the stuff smaller companies provide for AVPs/AVRs (Emotiva, Anthem, Monoprice, Arcam etc...), all were ok some really good but all kinda buggy. My current Denon X4700H and previous Marantz 8805 just "worked". HDMI switching, music streaming, and zone processing for different rooms for different people in my family are somewhat overlooked by the "I sit 4.574 feet from my 2 channel "130DB" 1 watt sensitive speakers going through my 1 ton turn table" crowd. Being able to say "Alexa/siri play Tom Petty" without issues is why I buy this stuff. I think D&M also understand that. And now, they measure "SOTA" as well! Again, thanks Gene and Audioholics for such great content, reviews, and measuring. (PS. can we get Theo to hit pause on the Marvel Cinematic Universe to give us a tour of his Salon 2s with those Perlisten subs please?? Not like he has a "real job".... )

 

[ban25]

One of the worst myth is "integrated" amps are better for 2 channel music (I mean in sound quality), because they are dedicated for music and 2 serious 2 ch listening vs AVRs and AVPs that have too many junks squeezed in one box. Same for separate preamps, but at least there are some preamps that outperformed any or at least most AVRs and AVPs on test benches.

If you ask Gene, I bet he will agree that there may be one of two (Anthem STR comes to mind but even that one??) integrated amps he has ever measured with better results than the likes of the $7,500 Denon AVP, Yamaha's RX-Z11. Okay, that's based on just one metric THD+N, but if you look at the detailed measurements of those top notch AVRs/AVPs, they measured very well or extremely well on other metrics as well. It will be difficult to find one that measure with >100 dB SINAD that measured really poor on any other metric, vs integrated amps, yet the myth will continue...

Plus it seems there is some serious feature creep in the integrated space now to where they are adding room correction, network streaming, HDMI....basically just two channel receivers. . Not that I'm complaining because those are useful things!