Behringer ep4000 for H/T problems

[Jimbo96]

I think I'm going crazy. I keep throwing money at this project and getting nowhere. Hoping someone can help.
I have 2-15" subs. Trying to power with the ep4000. I'm using the art clean pro box in line. The lights on the amp seem to be working good. I can go all the way to clipping and get almost no sound from the speakers, just a lot of heat. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. Any help on this would be extremely appreciated.

Yamaha TSR-7850
Art clean box pro
Behringer ultra gain pro mic 2200
MVX VSW154 V2 x2

 

[lovinthehd]

Perhaps describe more of the system and how you're using it and exactly what connections you've made. For example, what does the mic do? Did you model the subs and what particular boxes did you build? Why did you need a clean box?

 

[Eppie]

Had a quick look at the EP4000 and Art Clean Box Pro. Are there two separate subs or a dual cabinet? I'll assume separate, so make sure the DIP switches are all to the left for stereo and 50Hz low pass. Only switch 1 and 10 should be on for clip limiting. If using a dual cabinet and running the amp bridged you have to be very careful with proper switch settings and speaker connections.

You could try going unbalanced for now. Wire up a RCA to 1/4" TRS adapter cable and use the TRS inputs to bypass the Art Clean Box for testing. That's unlikely the issue if the display on the EP4000 is showing clipping, so I would check the switches and wiring first.

If the amp is showing that it is receiving a signal, then the issue can be in the DIP switch settings, the speaker wiring or the speakers themselves. You can test the speakers by running them off of the receiver or another amp. You can test the amp by connecting the pre-out of the receiver to the TRS inputs and connecting regular speakers to the EP4000 using the regular binding posts. If you made your own XLR cables or are using the speak-on connectors on the amp, double check that you wired them correctly. The speak-on connectors in particular need to be wired according to the back of the amp when in bridge mode.

 

[Jimbo96]

Thank you replies. I'm running rca cables into the unbalanced side of the art box. Then balanced cables to the mic2200, Then balanced cables to the amp. I'm using the art box because my pre outs on the receiver are weak.

 

[Eppie]

Thank you replies. I'm running rca cables into the unbalanced side of the art box. Then balanced cables to the mic2200, Then balanced cables to the amp. I'm using the art box because my pre outs on the receiver are weak.

Looking at this logically, if the Behringer's signal and clip LEDs are on/flashing then you have a signal on the input. That leads one to believe that the issue is with the amp, its settings, the speaker wiring or the speakers. You need to address these one at a time as a process of elimination. I would run the amp unbridged (stereo) even if you have a single sub cabinet and use the binding posts first on one channel. That's the simplest connection. Once you get one channel working you can adapt from there. You haven't mentioned whether you are running two cabinets or a single dual cabinet and whether the cabinets use binding posts or speak-on jacks.

 

[Jimbo96]

I'm running the subs separate. I have them wired to 2 ohms each, which is what the Behringer says it can handle. They are dvc speakers. They are automotive speakers that are brand new.

 

[Jimbo96]

Also, I'm wondering about the dip switches. I tried all to the left but 1 and 10 to the right. Tried 3 and 8 to the right-thinking it would turn off any low pas filters. I'm running this from the sub pre outs, thinking this already cutting the high frequency. Nothing seems to be working.

 

[panteragstk]

Has the amp ever worked before? Is it also new?

 

[lovinthehd]

Thank you replies. I'm running rca cables into the unbalanced side of the art box. Then balanced cables to the mic2200, Then balanced cables to the amp. I'm using the art box because my pre outs on the receiver are weak.

How do things work if you take the mic 2200 out of the chain?

 

[everettT]

I think I'm going crazy. I keep throwing money at this project and getting nowhere. Hoping someone can help.
I have 2-15" subs. Trying to power with the ep4000. I'm using the art clean pro box in line. The lights on the amp seem to be working good. I can go all the way to clipping and get almost no sound from the speakers, just a lot of heat. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. Any help on this would be extremely appreciated.

Yamaha TSR-7850
Art clean box pro
Behringer ultra gain pro mic 2200
MVX VSW154 V2 x2

Did you set your speakers to small?

 

[panteragstk]

How do things work if you take the mic 2200 out of the chain?

That was going to be my next suggestion. Take everything extra out and see what happens.

If that doesn't do it, I'd think the amp is the issue.

 

[Eppie]

@Jimbo96 I had a look at the back of the amp again and switch 3 and 8 say "low cut on/off". I downloaded the manual and that is a *HIGH PASS* filter, not low pass. With switches 3 and 8 on you are filtering out the bass and will get no output for your subs. You must have the low cut filters off, so switches 3 and 8 must be to the right. With the filters off, the 50/30 setting should not matter.

Next, I would try the amp with regular speakers just to make sure the amp is working ok. Leave the filters off for full range operation. If the amp works ok then you can turn your attention to the subwoofers.

While this is pro gear rated down to 2 ohms, I don't know that I would trust it as being stable with a constant 2 ohm load. Speaker impedance is not fixed; it varies with frequency, so it could dip below 2 ohms in your configuration. I assume that you have two 4 ohm speakers connected in parallel in each cabinet for a 2 ohm load. How hard would it be to either wire it for a single 4 ohm speaker or connect them in series for 8 ohms? If that works, then your 2 ohm configuration is too low an impedance and you need to rethink your design.

EDIT: OK, had a look at the speakers specs on line. I haven't installed any car gear in a while so not familiar with the dual 4 ohm voice coil speakers. For single use they can be 2 ohm or 8 ohm. I would wire them up in 8 ohm to see if that is the issue.

 

[Jimbo96]

Has the amp ever worked before? Is it also new?

 

[Jimbo96]

The amp is lightly used. Looks like new. If I take the Mic 2200 out, I just have a little less gain with the amp. Using pre outs for sub and I have everything turned all the way up for the sub.
Changing the DVC wiring to 8 ohm each sounds good. I have them set up individually at 2 ohms each. One Right channel and one left channel. Trying a different speaker is a good idea too. I'm going to dig one up that's not automotive. Thanks for the help

 

[Jimbo96]

Well, I bypassed the plate amp in my JBL sub and connected it to the amp. It actually worked, kinda. It made pretty good sound, but low sound level.
With the art box, the noise floor was closer to the ceiling. Tried with the Mic 2200 instead of the art box. Much cleaner but much lower sound. Amp hooked up without either had no volume. This has been going on for a couple of months now. I really like to see things through, but I think I'm going to throw in the towel. I keep throwing money at it with no results. I thought I would have more power with less cost. Another life learning experience. I still don't understand why DVC automotive speakers will not work in a home theater setup.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well, I bypassed the plate amp in my JBL sub and connected it to the amp. It actually worked, kinda. It made pretty good sound, but low sound level.
With the art box, the noise floor was closer to the ceiling. Tried with the Mic 2200 instead of the art box. Much cleaner but much lower sound. Amp hooked up without either had no volume. This has been going on for a couple of months now. I really like to see things through, but I think I'm going to throw in the towel. I keep throwing money at it with no results. I thought I would have more power with less cost. Another life learning experience. I still don't understand why DVC automotive speakers will not work in a home theater setup.

Depends on the drivers you select, why I asked if you'd modeled the sub (using software like winisd or bass box pro etc). Sometimes car drivers are best suited for the small cabins of a vehicle compared to much larger typical rooms in a home. How did you bypass the amp in the JBL sub? Or did you just use the high level (speaker level) inputs?

 

[highfigh]

I think I'm going crazy. I keep throwing money at this project and getting nowhere. Hoping someone can help.
I have 2-15" subs. Trying to power with the ep4000. I'm using the art clean pro box in line. The lights on the amp seem to be working good. I can go all the way to clipping and get almost no sound from the speakers, just a lot of heat. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. Any help on this would be extremely appreciated.

Yamaha TSR-7850
Art clean box pro
Behringer ultra gain pro mic 2200
MVX VSW154 V2 x2

Show the settings on the Clean Box, crossover and amp.

What is becoming hot- the amp?

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, I bypassed the plate amp in my JBL sub and connected it to the amp. It actually worked, kinda. It made pretty good sound, but low sound level.
With the art box, the noise floor was closer to the ceiling. Tried with the Mic 2200 instead of the art box. Much cleaner but much lower sound. Amp hooked up without either had no volume. This has been going on for a couple of months now. I really like to see things through, but I think I'm going to throw in the towel. I keep throwing money at it with no results. I thought I would have more power with less cost. Another life learning experience. I still don't understand why DVC automotive speakers will not work in a home theater setup.

How did you design the box for this driver? Car drivers usually make very poor home HT drivers, as they usually assume cab gain.

I did manage to find the Thiele/Small parameters of that driver. It is a high sensitivity but high Qts driver. Just roughly eye balling the specs, it seems to me a driver that would have little bass natively. It appears to me to be a driver designed for a small sealed enclosure with massive amounts of Eq applied and then high passed at driver x-max.

There is a science to speaker design. Unless the physics is right it won't work.

If you do not know the principles of speaker design, then you should have come here first to ask for assistance, and that would have included driver selection.

My guess is you just haphazardly picked a driver and shoved them in a box, without an over all design strategy. The math of all that led to zero results. But, I'm all ears to find out the exact details of your build. I can then tell you exactly why you got zero results and guide you to get excellent results after nearly 70 years of doing this.

 

[highfigh]

Thank you replies. I'm running rca cables into the unbalanced side of the art box. Then balanced cables to the mic2200, Then balanced cables to the amp. I'm using the art box because my pre outs on the receiver are weak.

The pre outs are fine, you're using them with equipment it wasn't designed to drive. Consumer audio isn't designed to be connected to balanced, LowZ inputs and it's not only a voltage problem, the impedance of these different types of equipment don't match and aren't compatible, so you're using the Clean Box to 'make the magic happen'. OK, that's fine, but there's the question of the Yamaha's settings (DON'T use its crossover with the rest of the equipment unless you ONLY use the high pass for your main speakers), crossover points and level controls on the Behringer, level settings on the Clean Box, Dip switch settings on the EP4000 and its level controls. Then, there's the unanswered question: is each of the subs wired to its own channel, are they wired parallel to one channel or is the amp bridged with the subs wired parallel?

That's not a trick question- the answer is in the manual and on the rear of the amp.

But just to save a bit of time, you can't wire the subs parallel and connect them to the amp when it's in bridge mode- the specs clearly show power output for EACH channel with 2 or 4 Ohm loads, and Bridged mode with a 4 Ohm load- it's on the left side of the rear panel.

Did you read the manuals? If not, do that before using the system and learn to make the adjustments by understanding what the manual tells you- asking questions & getting answers doesn't help you to understand it, it just gives you the answers.

Why do you think you need this much power? Who told you that it's necessary? What are you using for the main speakers? How loudly do you plan to use the system and if:

you don't have an extremely large room
the subs aren't terribly insensitive
the main speakers aren't extremely sensitive
you aren't deaf,

you don't need 2000-4000 Watts.

 

[Jimbo96]

To bypass the plate amp, I took it out and ran straight to the driver. I didn't use an app, I just purchased the box and added the drivers. Honestly, I had no idea an app like that existed. As far as the heat, yes, it is the amp. I have the dip switches set at 1&3&8&10 to the right and the others to the left. I would very much appreciate help with the speaker design. What I was thinking was purchasing a Rockville sbg1184 18" which is passive in an enclosure. That is pro audio, so I think it will work better. The art box has no settings. Using RCA unbalanced in both channels. XLR balanced to the amp. The subs are wired separate Channel 1 and channel 2. I have read the manual. From what I have heard, Yamaha is notorious for having low pre out voltage. I know it's kinda crazy for a 67-year-old, but I wanted my living room to have the same bass as a nightclub. I want the kinda bass that you feel in your chest. Not for all time listening, but when I want. I don't need it to move my hair, but I would like it to knock the pictures off of the wall when I want.
I have always loved music. When I was young, I didn't have the bass capabilities of today. Love the way the bass moves me. (Literally). You're right, I think I'm in over my head here. I pretty much picked drivers I thought would work good and found a box to put them in. I have done that in a vehicle and had good luck with only 1500 watts to the sub. I was going to give up, but I think I should try a pro speaker first.
What do you think? One other thing. I bought the art box used. They said it was new, unused. It was open, so I'm not sure. It was very noisy. I ordered a new one to see if it's cleaner. Thanks again guys.