Behringer ep4000 for H/T problems

[highfigh]

To bypass the plate amp, I took it out and ran straight to the driver. I didn't use an app, I just purchased the box and added the drivers. Honestly, I had no idea an app like that existed. As far as the heat, yes, it is the amp. I have the dip switches set at 1&3&8&10 to the right and the others to the left. I would very much appreciate help with the speaker design. What I was thinking was purchasing a Rockville sbg1184 18" which is passive in an enclosure. That is pro audio, so I think it will work better. The art box has no settings. Using RCA unbalanced in both channels. XLR balanced to the amp. The subs are wired separate Channel 1 and channel 2. I have read the manual. From what I have heard, Yamaha is notorious for having low pre out voltage. I know it's kinda crazy for a 67-year-old, but I wanted my living room to have the same bass as a nightclub. I want the kinda bass that you feel in your chest. Not for all time listening, but when I want. I don't need it to move my hair, but I would like it to knock the pictures off of the wall when I want.
I have always loved music. When I was young, I didn't have the bass capabilities of today. Love the way the bass moves me. (Literally). You're right, I think I'm in over my head here. I pretty much picked drivers I thought would work good and found a box to put them in. I have done that in a vehicle and had good luck with only 1500 watts to the sub. I was going to give up, but I think I should try a pro speaker first.
What do you think? One other thing. I bought the art box used. They said it was new, unused. It was open, so I'm not sure. It was very noisy. I ordered a new one to see if it's cleaner. Thanks again guys.

If you want bass like in a nightclub, you can always buy a cabinet that WOULD BE used in a night club- it doesn't need to be huge, it just needs to be voiced that way. Also, you need to consider the size of your room- small rooms don't need a big sub and it can work backward in some ways. The 'feel it in my chest' sensation isn't the same for everyone. I had a sub in one of my past cars and it was behind the passenger seat. I felt it as I drove, but one passenger asked me if I could turn it down because he was becoming nauseated.

I haven't noticed noise in any of the ART products I installed, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Usually, noise is present because the level controls need to be adjusted correctly- jacking everything up isn't 'correctly', especially when that is done due to low output.

What shape and size is the room? That matters, a lot.

I would return the switches to the OFF positions and check your speaker plug wiring- loose strands that are touching an adjacent terminal can cause all kinds of problems- you're using the screw terminals, right?

The parameters needed for designing the correct enclosure for the subs should be easy enough to find- if you call Pioneer, they should be able to send a file to you.

As much as you may not want to, I recommend reading the manuals. ALL of them. Make notes as needed.

 

[Jimbo96]

Do you think this would give me the bass I'm looking for?
Rockville PBG18 18

 

[Jimbo96]

That's why I'm thinking of purchasing the Rockville pbg18. I figure that Rockville knows what enclosure the driver needs. As far as feeling the sound. I like that. I was powering one 12" sub with a clean 1500 Watt RMS in the rear of my suburban. That I could feel. It sounds like that isn't going to happen in my living room. I think the automotive drivers move a lot more air. Sad they're not compatible, The area I'm trying to use is approximately 30'x25.
Everything in the manuals is pretty straight forward except the voltage & ohm difference between the pre outs on the avr and the input on the amp. The art box is supposed to fix that.

 

[everettT]

Do you think this would give me the bass I'm looking for?
Rockville PBG18 18

I'd personally go for one of the JBL 18s or QSCs, but just as "boom" goes I'm sure the Rockville will do that.

 

[lovinthehd]

So did you ever use the Yamaha to amp directly? I see the EP4000 spec's 1.23V for sensitivity, so I'd think the Yamaha is likely to be able to provide that. I wonder if expectations of an experience similar to being in an automobile cabin is partly what's going on here. I'm still curious why you're using a mic pre-amp as well as the ART box and still not getting a strong enough signal (if everything is working properly). If you were able to directly connect the JBL driver and still are disappointed, that makes me think more of expectations still.

ps What bass management settings are you using in the Yamaha and what material are you testing with?

 

[Jimbo96]

The Yamaha states 1.0 v on the sub RCA outs. If I hook it up directly, I get next to 0 sound. If I use the mic 2200 into the amp, it pretty clean with very little volume. If I connect art box to amp, it becomes very noisy. I ordered a new Art box, hoping the used one is faulty. I can tell the art box gives me more power.
I only connected all three together once to try it to see if it would help. I have all levels set to high on the sub pre outs.
If I understand what you're saying, the jbl will give me a more full sound quality.
I was looking at the Rockville because it's affordable and can handle high wattage. I was hoping to find something that I can throw 2000 watts at without killing it. I'm sure with this amp if I can get it working properly will have a lot of headroom no matter what speaker I use.

 

[lovinthehd]

The Yamaha states 1.0 v on the sub RCA outs. If I hook it up directly, I get next to 0 sound. If I use the mic 2200 into the amp, it pretty clean with very little volume. If I connect art box to amp, it becomes very noisy. I ordered a new Art box, hoping the used one is faulty. I can tell the art box gives me more power.
I only connected all three together once to try it to see if it would help. I have all levels set to high on the sub pre outs.
If I understand what you're saying, the jbl will give me a more full sound quality.
I was looking at the Rockville because it's affordable and can handle high wattage. I was hoping to find something that I can throw 2000 watts at without killing it. I'm sure with this amp if I can get it working properly will have a lot of headroom no matter what speaker I use.

Many avrs cite only a 1V nominal pre-out level, but many in practice can do much more. I think we're back to the expectations thing myself. Sounds like between heat and amplified noise, the gear is working. How about the bass management settings in the avr? What are the speakers you're using in this system? Keep in mind a lot of that strong bass still needs to come from the speakers, not just a sub.

 

[TLS Guy]

Do you think this would give me the bass I'm looking for?
Rockville PBG18 18

I have no idea what bass you are looking for. The above speaker has no deep bass and is missing almost the whole last octave. Its F3 is 35 Hz.

In order to make a good bass enclosure, you have to select the correct driver, and then design the optimal enclosure. You can not just pick a driver and put it in any enclosure you feel like. That will not work well at all, and you certainly won't get decent bass.

Now there is a rule in this, that you can have sensitivity or bass extension but not both. Pro systems have to fill large spaces, and so higher sensitivity is required, which is why pro subs lack deep bass.

So, if you tell us what space you are trying to fill, and what sort of bass extension you are looking for, I can advise you on a driver and what enclosure to build for it. Then you will have a good functioning sub.

 

[Jimbo96]

I get a good amount of bass from my JBL e80s. But I'm looking for ground shaking bass. I now have a powered JBL 250p 250 watts, and a powered JBL S120p 400 watts. When I leave the 250p on without playing anything, it will start ticking and the light flashes green to red back and forth. I think from low signal. The s120p never put out much volume. The 250p kicks its but. Was hoping to eliminate both of these for something much more powerful. If I wasn't on a budget, I think it would be much easier. Definitely a bigger headache than I thought it would be. It's so weird to me that 1500 watts in my suburban you can see the sheet metal move. I know it's a much smaller area, but I'm pretty sure if I could put that in my living room, it would work pretty good. Now I'm supposed to have 2800 watts @ 8 ohms or 4000 @ 4 ohms. Somehow that seems like it should shake the neighbor's house if I can connect it correctly with the proper driver. Maybe I'm dumber than I thought! I did try to add a power inverter and use an automotive set-up. Wow! Talk about a bunch of noise. Sold that. Now I need to sell my 15" drivers too. I almost bought the svs pb 3000 before I started this mission. Tried to save money but been doing just the opposite. Now I can't afford it.

 

[lovinthehd]

The wattage isn't much of a guideline without knowing the sensitivity of the system. Sealed subs generally just need more power to allow for some eq of the lower end where they are not as efficient as a ported design. I'd hold off on selling the drivers until they're modeled for best box(es) to use.

 

[Jimbo96]

The drivers totally don't work. I went to clipping and barely heard any sound. When I took apart the s120p and connected to the driver itself, it sounded pretty good. Just not as loud as I wanted. What do you think of the Rockville sbg1188? It can only handle 500 watts RMS, but it goes down to 20hz

 

[lovinthehd]

The drivers totally don't work. I went to clipping and barely heard any sound. When I took apart the s120p and connected to the driver itself, it sounded pretty good. Just not as loud as I wanted. What do you think of the Rockville sbg1188? It can only handle 500 watts RMS, but it goes down to 20hz

With an f3 as TLS noted of 35hz, what spl can it do at 20hz? Probably not a lot. Subs for clubs don't generally address low extension, but rather concentrate further up the frequency spectrum. Even some subs with an f3 of 20hz are still spl limited. Since you have the amp etc I'd just concentrate on a better suited driver/box (and TLS has a couple of ready to go designs for some Dayton drivers that could work quite well).

If the drivers are faulty (i.e. totally don't work) then maybe exchange them for working ones. That would be a bit different than drivers just not suited to purpose....

 

[Jimbo96]

I guess I exaggerated a bit when I said totally don't work. What I mean is they aren't liking this amp. They make noise, barely. Not suited for this application. I'm sure they would be great in a vehicle. I can send them back, but the shipping makes it cost ineffective. I think I'm better off selling them. That's pretty much what I'm looking for, is a new driver/box. That's why I was hoping something inexpensive already together like the Rockville sbg1188 would work.

 

[lovinthehd]

I guess I exaggerated a bit when I said totally don't work. What I mean is they aren't liking this amp. They make noise, barely. Not suited for this application. I'm sure they would be great in a vehicle. I can send them back, but the shipping makes it cost ineffective. I think I'm better off selling them. That's pretty much what I'm looking for, is a new driver/box. That's why I was hoping something inexpensive already together like the Rockville sbg1188 would work.

Personally I think you should stop buying stuff at least until you know more. A good start is asking questions....before buying. Selling not so much, altho with those drivers probably a good plan if they're functional for intended use.

Have you perused the diy forums here, at diyaudio.com or avsforum.com ?

 

[Jimbo96]

Yes, I have, and this forum is better in my opinion. If I'm understanding this correctly, I'm not going to get a good sounding sub without building my own box? Something else I was wondering is if I use Dayton drivers, are they going to work with a pro amp? Because I'm going from home theater to pro amp. Is going back to home drivers a good idea?

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, I have, and this forum is better in my opinion. If I'm understanding this correctly, I'm not going to get a good sounding sub without building my own box? Something else I was wondering is if I use Dayton drivers, are they going to work with a pro amp? Because I'm going from home theater to pro amp. Is going back to home drivers a good idea?

Again, just think you need to expand your knowledge base from your posts. A good sounding sub, particularly with your current hardware efforts, could still be well beyond reasonable expectations from the rest of us....as an example. Hard to know what your expectations are particularly. If you could measure the performance of your current setup it could certainly help us understand where the problems may lie. I use pro amps (Crowns) with my diy subs, but they have consumer level inputs (single ended/rca) as well as pro level (balanced/xlr-trs) so no external help in forms like additional pre-amp is needed in my case at least. A driver needs to be modeled for particular ideal boxes initially, and that's your first step really in a diy build....picking an appropriate driver for the box you can provide in terms of size/complexity and amplification.

 

[Jimbo96]

Do pro amps blend well with home drivers?

 

[Jimbo96]

It's true, I think you guys are at a whole other level than I am. I probably went down the wrong road to start with, but I do appreciate the advice. I think when the new art box comes in, I will try it again with the JBL speaker and go from there.

 

[TLS Guy]

Do pro amps blend well with home drivers?

Absolutely they do.

Your problem is lack of the knowledge of the physics of the situation.

All speaker design is critical design. Anything splash-dash or off the cuff, will NEVER work. Speakers, including subs have to be engineered to exacting standards, or they won't work.

Many members here have built subs of superior performance. We have a member building one right now.

One of the advantages of a custom sub is that it can be designed and built to your own requirements. I have never used a commercial speaker. I have always built and designed my own. The first one built 69 years ago.

You are right about one thing. This forum will tell you the honest truth, whether you want to hear it or not.

First we need to know what your requirements are and your budget, after your recent" learning experience". So I need, size of room, F3 you intend to hit, and the spl. you want to achieve. After that we can get down to business. You may now have to curtail expectations a little after your recent "learning experience". However you have the amp, so you just have to select the correct driver and build the optimal box and then you are set. I can model it and send you graphs, of exactly how it will perform. I quite likely have a design on file I can link.

 

[TLS Guy]

It's true, I think you guys are at a whole other level than I am. I probably went down the wrong road to start with, but I do appreciate the advice. I think when the new art box comes in, I will try it again with the JBL speaker and go from there.

Forget it, won't work.