ASR review of Pioneer VSX-LX505 (Onkyo RZ50)

G

Golfx

Full Audioholic
I miss the days when review sites published the measured data.
ASR is a data driven website, and I think the community needs the information Amirm is providing.
When Amirm comments on the data it is contextually comparative to similar products that have been tested.
Very few words are used and there is nothing wrong with that.
Amirm's recommended/not recommended recommendation is only based on the electrical performance as compared to similar devices, there are no subjective listening tests, and there is nothing wrong with that either.
I had been shopping for an AVR for a few months and had ordered the VSX-LX505 one day before the measurements were posted on ASR.
At $1500 I guess I expected the measurements to be better than they are, but the only thing that actually bothered me was the nanny circuit.
I took delivery of the AVR January 9.
The equipment connected is RF83, RC62, RS42, LFM1-EX, LG C2, PS5, XSX, Roku, BD player, and a computer (via network).
I have vigorously tried to trigger the nanny circuit and have not been able to do so. I have no concerns about that now.
The HDMI 2.1 features work like they are supposed to on PS5 and Xbox Series X.
My wife and I like the way it sounds.
Sometime soon I will give Dirac a try to see if I think it contributes anything positive to the experience.
Even though the VSX-LX505 measurements are very middle of the road, in 202x, middle of the road for an AVR is still pretty darn good.
I understand why Amirm does not recommend this AVR, that does not mean it is a bad product and there is no reason for anyone to be triggered about it not being "recommended".
I think anyone with "normal" speakers that needs HDMI 2.1 that works well, will be satisfied with this AVR.
I use ASR to scope and narrow my choices. I also understand my speakers and ears have no physical chance of hearing nuances of SINAD above 85, hi-res streaming, or power reductions at non reference levels.
 
P

potetgull

Audiophyte
Does anyone have a kill-a-watt/power meter to monitor how much power the LX505 pulls from the outlet during complete silence, and say ~-45dB with 2 or 5+ speakers connected? I'm guessing 100W at idle and ~150W in light use? But would love some confirmation.

I'm on a Class D Pioneer LX87 (cool ~70W during evening time 7ch use), and these A/B amps scare me. My place's already hot enough.
 
D

David Harper

Audioholic Intern
Most or all of the issues with AVR power amp sections can be avoided by simply buying a $700 Schiit Vidar amp and connecting the AVR's pre-outs to it. The economics of AVR production are such that the power amp section is not a priority. Too much other stuff going on in an AVR. My Yamaha AVR is very good at everything it does except the power amp section just can't cut it with inefficient speakers or low-impedance loads. It kept getting hot and shutting down. I bought the Vidar amp and it was the ideal fix (for me). I am aware that this is a HT thread and so a two-channel amp might not appeal too many here.
 
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dlaloum

Full Audioholic
Yeah....Amirs the kind of guy I can't criticize, even though I don't always agree with his methods of evaluation or his conclusions.

Just for fun, I pulled up the web interface on my unit and monitored the protection screen on the web interface.
Turned off my subs, so the amps have to work hard...pushed my speakers hard with some bass heavy content.
Protection never kicked in, and I sure didn't notice anything diminished in the output.
One of the topics of debate is whether the "protection" reference on the web interface, is referring to the "nanny circuit" which reduces power output, or whether it is referring to some other more drastic shutdown/self protection mechanism.

I have the Integra DRX3.4 sibling of the family - and have pushed it hard into my 4 ohm nominal (1.6 ohm minimum) speakers - and it did not sound good !!! - but it never triggered the "protection" tag on the web interface.

No one so far has identified a means of knowing when the "nanny circuit" is active (reducing power output) other than measurement tools that most of us don't have at home!
 
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dlaloum

Full Audioholic
I'd like to see more people perform the in-home test of this particular model (is the Onkyo/Pioneer pretty much a Denon/Marantz difference?). Might be hard to replicate test tone torture, tho. As to Amir's testing, it is what it is (and is quite limited on an avr/pre-pro), his comments can be taken poorly by many, tho.
The almost identical siblings from this manufacturer (top two tiers) are:

Onkyo RZ50 / Pioneer LX505 / Integra DRX 5.4

and

Onkyo NR7100 / Pioneer LX305 / Integra DRX 3.4

I believe that circuit boards are mostly identical across them, and we know the firmware is identical

There are some minor feature differences but behaviour and specs should be identical.

In my own system, standard listening level is circa 72db with peaks at circa 92db

This means average power consumption of circa 0.1W (or less), with peaks of around 8W

So in theory, based on AmirM's measurements at ASR, I would never trigger the "nanny circuit", and even if I did, I would probably not hear a difference, as I am below the thresholds where it would clip!!

BUT - in reality, the AVR cannot supply the current that my speakers require, and did not sound great driving them - the sound cleaned up completely when I moved them to external amps.

Like most AVR's, these are not suited to "difficult" speakers....

But as stated before and elsewhere - I have no means of identifying whether or not the power constraining "nanny circuit" is active - but, I can confirm that the "protection" marker on the web interface, has NEVER been activated... does this mean the protection flag is NOT referring to the power constraining nanny circuit?, or does this mean that it IS referring to the Nanny circuit, and it has never been activated on my system?

I simply don't know.

Performance of the AVR in my system with my external amps is admirable - and has provided me with the best performance that I have had from my system.... mostly courtesy of Dirac.
 
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dlaloum

Full Audioholic
The only times I've ever heard audible issues has been with some of these products was with 100+db horns, other then that, not really.
The signal to noise spec on these are 103db... their THD however is in the 70's... which pulls their SINAD down.

I would argue that most people who have experienced "hiss" from XLS amps, had a gain issue between pre and power amps.... because the signal to noise ratio of these amps is very good (although, it is an A weighted spec...).
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
The almost identical siblings from this manufacturer (top two tiers) are:

Onkyo RZ50 / Pioneer LX505 / Integra DRX 5.4

and

Onkyo NR7100 / Pioneer LX305 / Integra DRX 3.4

I believe that circuit boards are mostly identical across them, and we know the firmware is identical

There are some minor feature differences but behaviour and specs should be identical.

In my own system, standard listening level is circa 72db with peaks at circa 92db

This means average power consumption of circa 0.1W (or less), with peaks of around 8W

So in theory, based on AmirM's measurements at ASR, I would never trigger the "nanny circuit", and even if I did, I would probably not hear a difference, as I am below the thresholds where it would clip!!

BUT - in reality, the AVR cannot supply the current that my speakers require, and did not sound great driving them - the sound cleaned up completely when I moved them to external amps.

Like most AVR's, these are not suited to "difficult" speakers....

But as stated before and elsewhere - I have no means of identifying whether or not the power constraining "nanny circuit" is active - but, I can confirm that the "protection" marker on the web interface, has NEVER been activated... does this mean the protection flag is NOT referring to the power constraining nanny circuit?, or does this mean that it IS referring to the Nanny circuit, and it has never been activated on my system?

I simply don't know.

Performance of the AVR in my system with my external amps is admirable - and has provided me with the best performance that I have had from my system.... mostly courtesy of Dirac.
I prefer not to have "difficult" speakers, just a sign of poor design really. I've not had any where an avr's amp section is particularly "bad" for any of my speakers up until a fairly high output level where differences might come out. Depends on room/volume level of course, too. At lower volume levels it's hard to imagine a speaker needs more current particularly than can be provided....at much higher levels perhaps.
 
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dlaloum

Full Audioholic
The question is does he have a valid point? If not, at what point does the compounded distortion begin to add up? I'd like to be able to purchase the cleanest electronics possible but where does that become irrelevant? There has been more then a few studies that have shown relatively high distortion numbers (above 2%) haven't mattered in blind testing and below 60hz are mostly irrelevant with speakers.

I do think we spend too much time arguing some of these points but many of us want the best possible, so there has to be a line in the sand, I'd imagine.
Basically noise even at relatively low levels is objectionable - whereas Harmonic distortion, can be relatively high before it becomes identifiable and objectionably (many people don't notice it until well above 5%... circa 10% I believe!!) - There are a bunch of excellent vintage amps that have THD at rated power of 0.1% - that is SINAD=60 !!!

And in terms of speakers - especially in the bass, many (most!) speakers have THD of over 10%.... some excellent speakers... in fact some of the very very best, get THD down to 0.5%.... (ie: SINAD= 46) - which makes a bit of a nonsense of some of the SINAD discussions!

Is it better to get it as low as possible - sure it is! - but roughly speaking any SINAD over 60db is going to be fine - as long as that is THD driven and NOT noise driven.

If it is Noise raising the SINAD to 60 - we will definitely hear it, if it is THD, we are unlikely to hear it.

So yes - I draw a line in the SINAD Sand - actually two of them! - I expect NOISE to be below 90db (and hopefully more than 100db) - but will accept THD anything over 60db (in reality I am likely to look at anything under 70db with suspicion, but academically speaking, 60db is probably the threshold of audibility)
 
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dlaloum

Full Audioholic
I prefer not to have "difficult" speakers, just a sign of poor design really. I've not had any where an avr's amp section is particularly "bad" for any of my speakers up until a fairly high output level where differences might come out. Depends on room/volume level of course, too. At lower volume levels it's hard to imagine a speaker needs more current particularly than can be provided....at much higher levels perhaps.
It is my own assumption that the issue was current related - but some power amp designs get unstable into low impedance loads... it can be a consequence of their feedback circuits or other aspects...
So it may be that these power amps are unstable into low impedance loads.... no measurement data to be able to differentiate between them - I can subjectively attest to the amps not sounding good into my speakers, and that flaws disappearing when my external power amps were used - while still using the AVR as a preamp.

Further more, while testing this - I also tried putting my external amps on L/R only - leaving the matched center on the internal power amps - in this configuration, it did NOT suffer from the audible degradation... even though the center channel has the sam low 1.6ohm minimum.

This makes me suspect that the issue is not stability, but current... (if it was stability, I would think the problem would still be audible with even a single speaker connected)

But like I said - no measurement tools, no ability to confirm precisely what was going on electrically.
 
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dlaloum

Full Audioholic
2. They no longer use class-D amps. One of the selling points of my current SC-91 was in the use of class-D. Really like the lower heat generation.
It is worthy of note that the Class-D amps were always limited to their top of the line components - the mass market / mid market units were still AB.

In the previous to current generation the LX504 was AB, and the LX704 was Class-D

In the current generation, they have mentioned that they are working on the TOTL units, but have yet to release them - so at sometime in the future (this year I hope!) they will release an LX705 / LX805 / LX905, and I expect those will be Class-D

The LX505 is a mass market model / midrange, it is NOT a flagship model, although marketing has been madly trying to sell the LX505 and RZ50 as flagship models, they really aren't.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
It is my own assumption that the issue was current related - but some power amp designs get unstable into low impedance loads... it can be a consequence of their feedback circuits or other aspects...
So it may be that these power amps are unstable into low impedance loads.... no measurement data to be able to differentiate between them - I can subjectively attest to the amps not sounding good into my speakers, and that flaws disappearing when my external power amps were used - while still using the AVR as a preamp.

Further more, while testing this - I also tried putting my external amps on L/R only - leaving the matched center on the internal power amps - in this configuration, it did NOT suffer from the audible degradation... even though the center channel has the sam low 1.6ohm minimum.

This makes me suspect that the issue is not stability, but current... (if it was stability, I would think the problem would still be audible with even a single speaker connected)

But like I said - no measurement tools, no ability to confirm precisely what was going on electrically.
Hard to know. I've used external amps of much greater power with little actual difference in any case, except at fairly high output levels. Not sure how you establish "stability" vs "current"....seems you might be trying to extend some sort of subjective impression into an electrical one....
 
isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
If only I had the knowledge to take my old Luxman R117 and Frankenstein it into a modern AVR....
 
D

dlaloum

Full Audioholic
Hard to know. I've used external amps of much greater power with little actual difference in any case, except at fairly high output levels. Not sure how you establish "stability" vs "current"....seems you might be trying to extend some sort of subjective impression into an electrical one....
Well yes - I am trying to logically determine why it might be that I hear what I hear...

With my previous AVR's (Onkyo TX-SR876, Integra DTR 70.4) I did not hear the sort of poor output that I heard out of the Integra DRX3.4... both those previous generation AVR's had substantial power supplies and weighed almost 3x what the 3.4 weighs... they were also measured at up to 165W@8ohm continuous in their day. Both were capable of making these speakers sound good... (although Quad 606 or Crown XLS2500 did sound better, but it was marginal... and possibly subject to confirmation bias... ie: might not have been noticeably better in a double blind test) - the 3.4 vs Quad 606 or Crown XLS2500 the difference is immediately and clearly noticeable - doesn't require DBT.... which still doesn't tell me what the cause of the problem is!
The Quad 606 is unconditionally stable into any load (as per spec) - but can only put out 90W into 2 ohm (circa 25W into 8ohm equivalent) - so it too is current constrained, but more than capable of meeting my SPL requirements in my setup.
 
isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
It is my own assumption that the issue was current related - but some power amp designs get unstable into low impedance loads... it can be a consequence of their feedback circuits or other aspects...
So it may be that these power amps are unstable into low impedance loads.... no measurement data to be able to differentiate between them - I can subjectively attest to the amps not sounding good into my speakers, and that flaws disappearing when my external power amps were used - while still using the AVR as a preamp.

Further more, while testing this - I also tried putting my external amps on L/R only - leaving the matched center on the internal power amps - in this configuration, it did NOT suffer from the audible degradation... even though the center channel has the sam low 1.6ohm minimum.

This makes me suspect that the issue is not stability, but current... (if it was stability, I would think the problem would still be audible with even a single speaker connected)

But like I said - no measurement tools, no ability to confirm precisely what was going on electrically.
I agree...current is more important than wattage when it comes to real world speaker loads, especially difficult loads. That's where all of these AVR's just give up.
This is why I brought up how nice it would be to have something like the legendary Luxman R117 morphed into a modern day AVR....those amps had exceptional current.
The shop I worked at sold Alpine, and the rep sold us Luxman for our new home gear store. My god, that stuff !!
Luckily, I got an at-cost promo deal on my R117 or I would have never been able to afford it.

Back in 89' I went to a seminar held by the Rockford Fosgate company....we sold and installed Rockford Fosgate car amps.
The first thing they told us was..."we are not going to discuss wattage, at all...we like current"
And those Rockford Fosgate car amps had current galore...the reason you could drive 26 speaker components off of one amp...subwoofer included.

These modern AVR's have very little current capacity...probably because they are designed to be used with powered subwoofers, decreasing the current demands. Or more likely...because everything made today is a cheap version of things that were made better before.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I agree...current is more important than wattage when it comes to real world speaker loads, especially difficult loads. That's where all of these AVR's just give up.
As I have explained in detail to dlaloum before but failed to convince him, that such statement, while not incorrect, is misleading and over time, would help sustain audio myths.

The fact is, such statement naturally implies that, given the choice of more power ("wattage" as you call it), and more current (amperage), the latter is more important. This is not true at all as a general statement if one looks into the relationship of voltage, current, power, phase angle, and distortion factor (not as define in audio but in power systems). To say one is more important than the other over simplify something that is more complicated.

Take a look of the basic formula involved:
Power = Voltage X Current X power factor (we can practically ignore the distortion factor in audio).
Current = Voltage/Resistance (I'll use resistance because most bench test labs used resistor load)

So, you can't single out just one, as current and voltage goes hand in hand, and both have to be considered.

Take a look of one quick numerical example:

Specs on power amp output side:
Amplifier A: Rated max voltage 30 V, max current 30 A
Amplifier B: Rated max voltage 60 V, max current 15A

So both amps can be rated 900 VA, probably about 720 W based on a typical 0.8 power factor used if the manufacturer rated it in "wattage".

Which one is better, are you going to take Amplifier A because current is more important? Obviously not, because it depends on your application. In fact, for the vast majority of usage, where speakers with nominal impedance say, 6 ohms with dips to 3.5 ohms, I would take Amplifier B if I actually need as much as 700 W to ensure my amp will not run too close to its clipping point.

My point to dlaloum (he has speakers that have impedance characteristics that are not very common at all) is that while he is correct in emphasizing the importance of current especially in his use case, it is better to include some caveat so as not to help perpetuate the misconception of the so call high current amp thing.

Case in point, and as evidence, Harman Kardon is one of those that really emphasized in the 90 to early 20's, that their AVRs are high current, often claiming 40 A, or even 60 A. To be fair though, if I remember right, they did include the caveat, that those were instantaneous values, but still it helped create the misconception that their typically lower "wattage" AVRs vs Denon, Yamaha, and Sony's in the same price range, are actually better, to the point many thought not all watts are the same blablabla.. Such misconception still persist as evidenced in many forums even on the generally more technically oriented sites, such as Audioholics and ASR.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I miss the days when review sites published the measured data.
ASR is a data driven website, and I think the community needs the information Amirm is providing.
When Amirm comments on the data it is contextually comparative to similar products that have been tested.
Very few words are used and there is nothing wrong with that.
Amirm's recommended/not recommended recommendation is only based on the electrical performance as compared to similar devices, there are no subjective listening tests, and there is nothing wrong with that either.
I had been shopping for an AVR for a few months and had ordered the VSX-LX505 one day before the measurements were posted on ASR.
At $1500 I guess I expected the measurements to be better than they are, but the only thing that actually bothered me was the nanny circuit.
I took delivery of the AVR January 9.
The equipment connected is RF83, RC62, RS42, LFM1-EX, LG C2, PS5, XSX, Roku, BD player, and a computer (via network).
I have vigorously tried to trigger the nanny circuit and have not been able to do so. I have no concerns about that now.
The HDMI 2.1 features work like they are supposed to on PS5 and Xbox Series X.
My wife and I like the way it sounds.
Sometime soon I will give Dirac a try to see if I think it contributes anything positive to the experience.
Even though the VSX-LX505 measurements are very middle of the road, in 202x, middle of the road for an AVR is still pretty darn good.
I understand why Amirm does not recommend this AVR, that does not mean it is a bad product and there is no reason for anyone to be triggered about it not being "recommended".
I think anyone with "normal" speakers that needs HDMI 2.1 that works well, will be satisfied with this AVR.
That nanny took her time (>35s), that ensures in real world use, especially with those Klipsch speakers, she will not bother you at all, as expected, and as confirmed by yourself.

As you said, Amir used few words, though it would be better if he used a few more words to emphasize the real world performance part.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Well yes - I am trying to logically determine why it might be that I hear what I hear...

With my previous AVR's (Onkyo TX-SR876, Integra DTR 70.4) I did not hear the sort of poor output that I heard out of the Integra DRX3.4... both those previous generation AVR's had substantial power supplies and weighed almost 3x what the 3.4 weighs... they were also measured at up to 165W@8ohm continuous in their day. Both were capable of making these speakers sound good... (although Quad 606 or Crown XLS2500 did sound better, but it was marginal... and possibly subject to confirmation bias... ie: might not have been noticeably better in a double blind test) - the 3.4 vs Quad 606 or Crown XLS2500 the difference is immediately and clearly noticeable - doesn't require DBT.... which still doesn't tell me what the cause of the problem is!
The Quad 606 is unconditionally stable into any load (as per spec) - but can only put out 90W into 2 ohm (circa 25W into 8ohm equivalent) - so it too is current constrained, but more than capable of meeting my SPL requirements in my setup.
I'd love to have that experience of the power amp making that immediate difference, since so many claim to have it....but I've tried it with many amps over the years and the amp just hasn't had that kind of impact (let alone magic audio qualities otherwise). The Quads are supposed to be "current dumpers"....what speakers do you/have you used?
 

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