ASR review of Pioneer VSX-LX505 (Onkyo RZ50)

[lovinthehd]

He likes to randomly insert zeros into THD as percentage and don’t like to be called out on that. So count the number of 0 carefully.

More zeros with dB would be a lot different!

 

[PENG]

One cool thing about the youthtube video was Buckeye amps is getting some well deserved love and recognition. Great to hear them getting a shout out

By the way, I mentioned that Amir took the Klippel distortions tests and he wasn't shy to tell his score. Just Googled and found it. He did poorly, much worse than me and I think he is much younger.

Distortion Listening Test | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

So how can anyone say he doesn't understand the audibility of even 80 dB SINAD, that is 0.01% THD+N, when he only made it to -27 dB (he claimed), that is 4.47% THD+N!

Based on this fact alone, I would bet he would have no trouble agreeing with those gentleman in the Youthman video. He allegedly "ridiculous" stand on SINAD has always been, as he stated many times, not mostly about audibility, but about "engineering excellence".

I don't have a good analogy, but I can think of one in which some parents know their kids can do exceptionally well in their life/career without scoring straight A's in exams during their schools, college/university days, but most parents probably don't mind their kids scoring a few A's, or at least all B's instead of B- or C+'s.

 

[Trell]

I thought you two were muting each other?

You mean that dude that is happy as long as audio electronics have a THD less than speakers?

 

[lovinthehd]

@Danzilla31 got a time point to check out the comments with?

 

[PENG]

Final thoughts on this. It's crazy to know that I can get the same audio enjoyment from a crown XlS 2502 as I can from my Anthem amplifiers. Or ATI or Monoprice. That's insane. And gives one a lot of headroom on shopping at different price points for what they want

I used to have a C$300/US$230 QSC850A so I know what you are saying. That thing, aside from having to replace the stock noisy fan, sounded to me as good as the so call class AAB Halo A21 amp. That's actually a good example to show just because I paid much more for my Bryston, Parasound, Marantz, Outlaw, even Hypex and Purifi amps because I their better looking specs, it does not mean I think amps with 0.018% THD+N or 75 dB SINAD are no good.

 

[PENG]

The thing is Youthman never bashed ASR. They were on a live stream and just answered a question that a viewer posted.

Those 2 guys on the feed with Youthman are in the industry and know they're stuff. And even they were diplomatic with they're feedback. But they did a GREAT job pointing something out that even you have brought up PENG. Which is don't let the importance of measurements impact a peice of gears value for you if those measurements are not aaudible. I feel there are some on the site that do get a little carried away with numbers. Unless it's a glaring engineering issue that could affect its reliability then that point should be emphasized more by ASR reviews

Something like I wouldn't get this myself because it doesn't meet my very high standards due to my scientific background in thus industry BUT the everyday user should have no problem enjoying this product because nothing I'm measuring you will be able to audibly detect.

A statement like that would keep all this drama away from ASR.

But when you spend most of your review pretty strongly bashing a product on said measurements then you even go so far as to not recommend buying it. Yeah I understand why he's getting some heat on this.

Now it's his site. And most of these products are customer send ins. So he is free to say what he wants to be fair. But others are free to say how they feel about that as well.

I watch the video once, Youthman did not say much, but didn't one guy said something about "....irresponsible..." ? that I certainly would exception to. I thought it would be irresponsible too, to take one out of context. These are hobbyists, and are supposedly technically oriented, fact based type, not politicians who want to score points whenever they can.

As to recommend not to buy it, it depends. If we are discussing which one is a better buy, Onkyo RZ50, Anthem MRX740, Marantz Cinema 50, Denon AVR-X3800H, Yamaha RX-A6A, then I see nothing wrong to not recommend the X3800H, RZ50, and recommend the MRX740, or RX-A6A. That is not the same as just say don't buy the X3800H period, and Amir never said that at all, or I missed something he said? I did read the review twice, could still have missed something, I guess.

 

[everettT]

You mean that dude that is happy as long as audio electronics have a THD less than speakers?

The question is does he have a valid point? If not, at what point does the compounded distortion begin to add up? I'd like to be able to purchase the cleanest electronics possible but where does that become irrelevant? There has been more then a few studies that have shown relatively high distortion numbers (above 2%) haven't mattered in blind testing and below 60hz are mostly irrelevant with speakers.

I do think we spend too much time arguing some of these points but many of us want the best possible, so there has to be a line in the sand, I'd imagine.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

SINAD does make it "look" more severe....

No wonder that stuff is not audible

Well here are some numbers that might blow some minds.

Denon X3800: 0.004% THD+N, SINAD -87dB (NOT RECOMMENDED)
Benchmark AHB2: 0.0002%, SINAD -113dB (highest rated, absolute best SINAD)

Review and Measurements of Benchmark AHB2 Amp

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Benchmark AHB2 Amplifier using THX technology to reduce distortion. I was going to request one for testing due to membership demand but to my pleasant surprise, the company volunteered to contact me and send not one, but two units! I requested...

www.audiosciencereview.com

SINAD difference: 26dB
THD+N difference: 0.004%

0.004% - 0.0002% = 0.004%

So while some people might say, “Wow, that’s a huge difference of 26dB!”, they don’t even realize that is only a difference of 0.004% THD+N!

 

[gene]

Common Gene, you are more fair, open, and objective minded than that. No one is perfect, Youthman said things that may not make sense to me either but I wouldn't label him with anything based on a few things he said. Just because someone put too much focus on SINAD does not mean there will be backlash to ensue...., and, if there are, they just need to be educated by knowledgeable people like you.

It was a tongue in cheek comment but my experience at ASR shows some truth to it. While Amir may be more open to performance not being boiled down to a single metric (aka. SINAD), many of his disciples seem to think otherwise. Similarly how some think they can judge absolute performance of a loudspeaker on a CTA-2034 graph. It's sad when measurements are taken by some "objectivists" as the ultimate guide to judging if a product is good or not without recognizing that there is often more to products performance than can be summed up by a single graph.

 

[lovinthehd]

It was a tongue in cheek comment but my experience at ASR shows some truth to it. While Amir may be more open to performance not being boiled down to a single metric (aka. SINAD), many of his disciples seem to think otherwise. Similarly how some think they can judge absolute performance of a loudspeaker on a CTA-2034 graph. It's sad when measurements are taken by some "objectivists" as the ultimate guide to judging if a product is good or not without recognizing that there is often more to products performance than can be summed up by a single graph.

Disciples? Do you have disciples?

 

[lovinthehd]

Might be good to keep in mind this is a refurb unit, too. Maybe it exhibits issues a new unit might not....

 

[gene]

Disciples? Do you have disciples?

No I don't think Audioholics has a cult following. Most of our audience is pretty pragmatic but reasonable. We use measurements as a guideline for good housekeeping rather than declarative product superiority. We debunk snakeoil nonsense but also respect if people like the jewelry aspect of a tweak or cable.

 

[lovinthehd]

No I don't think Audioholics has a cult following. Most of our audience is pretty pragmatic but reasonable. We use measurements as a guideline for good housekeeping rather than declarative product superiority. We debunk snakeoil nonsense but also respect if people like the jewelry aspect of a tweak or cable.

Neither does ASR I think....and some do consider here at AH to be a cult of not using just ears to an extent as well in any case. I don't think Amir declares product superiority except in certain particular measurements....not overall. His recommendations aren't an overall usefullness/audibility thing, more just what can be achieved and that some don't.

LOL as to respect for overspending on cables to get some perceived "aesthetics"....meh, got no respect for that or other "tweaks".

 

[Danzilla31]

Might be good to keep in mind this is a refurb unit, too. Maybe it exhibits issues a new unit might not....

Hey Lovin to answer your question on time stamps it doesn't have one on the video I linked here but it's at about the 130 to 230 mark I'd guess the comment from one the fellows that's causing all the commotion

To answer your question about Youthman. I think hes great. He's fun he does a lot to promote our industry including interviewing and showcasing developers and companies including monoprice jtr perlisten and many others.

Showcases our theater rooms reviews products stuff like that

He will be the first to say he's no technical expert but like in this interview he will bring in experts in the industry and he's good about staying out of the way and letting them speak about measurements and technical aspects

But he's hard working very fun and gets people fired up about our industry I like him he's fun to watch

As far as the issue in this video I'm not very worked up about it. I already understand that Amir is measuring for engineering excellence not audibility in his avr and pre pro measurements I know that most of his criticisms are never audible

So unless it's got glitchy bugs or software or it's an gross engineering issue he turns up it's not influencing my buying

You know as well as I do Lovin any avr or pre pro without room eq and dsp applied and amplifiers as long as they are not pushed past they're limits sounds exactly the same in a double blind test.

So for me it's more about the feature set and can I get what I want at a certain price point etc. etc.

The problem Amir runs into is he doesn't really put a disclaimer on it explaining this. Hell say its not audible but only briefly at certain points ik his review. ASR used to be more of a niche site now it's becoming mainstream which is a good thing. But now the site attracts regular less informed more first time buyers that are going to not understand that his criticism is not based on actual real world audible performance. But on engineering tests that he sets the benchmark very high for. These poor first timers are going to freak out when he shows certain numbers or doesn't recommend something and sadly they might miss out on what would be the perfect purchase for them

I just think he needs to adjust to the popularity his site has attracted thats all. Which I think he will over time. He'll be fine. And if not it's his site he can say anything he likes really if we're being fair about it.

 

[lovinthehd]

Hey Lovin to answer your question on time stamps it doesn't have one on the video I linked here but it's at about the 130 to 230 mark I'd guess the comment from one the fellows that's causing all the commotion

To answer your question about Youthman. I think hes great. He's fun he does a lot to promote our industry including interviewing and showcasing developers and companies including monoprice jtr perlisten and many others.

Showcases our theater rooms reviews products stuff like that

He will be the first to say he's no technical expert but like in this interview he will bring in experts in the industry and he's good about staying out of the way and letting them speak about measurements and technical aspects

But he's hard working very fun and gets people fired up about our industry I like him he's fun to watch

As far as the issue in this video I'm not very worked up about it. I already understand that Amir is measuring for engineering excellence not audibility in his avr and pre pro measurements I know that most of his criticisms are never audible

So unless it's got glitchy bugs or software or it's an gross engineering issue he turns up it's not influencing my buying

You know as well as I do Lovin any avr or pre pro without room eq and dsp applied and amplifiers as long as they are not pushed past they're limits sounds exactly the same in a double blind test.

So for me it's more about the feature set and can I get what I want at a certain price point etc. etc.

The problem Amir runs into is he doesn't really put a disclaimer on it explaining this. Hell say its not audible but only briefly at certain points ik his review. ASR used to be more of a niche site now it's becoming mainstream which is a good thing. But now the site attracts regular less informed more first time buyers that are going to not understand that his criticism is not based on actual real world audible performance. But on engineering tests that he sets the benchmark very high for. These poor first timers are going to freak out when he shows certain numbers or doesn't recommend something and sadly they might miss out on what would be the perfect purchase for them

I just think he needs to adjust to the popularity his site has attracted thats all. Which I think he will over time. He'll be fine. And if not it's his site he can say anything he likes really if we're being fair about it.

Another issue generally for multich units is he doesn't test for multich at all. Just a limited view but a useful one IMO. I think you need to read more of Amir's long term comments to get what a particular review might refer to, which probably bothers a lot of temporary visitors particularly...

 

[mtrycrafts]

....
But doesn't it seem like a "MIND GAME"?...

Without a mind, there is no game.

 

[PENG]

Hey Lovin to answer your question on time stamps it doesn't have one on the video I linked here but it's at about the 130 to 230 mark I'd guess the comment from one the fellows that's causing all the commotion

To answer your question about Youthman. I think hes great. He's fun he does a lot to promote our industry including interviewing and showcasing developers and companies including monoprice jtr perlisten and many others.

Showcases our theater rooms reviews products stuff like that

He will be the first to say he's no technical expert but like in this interview he will bring in experts in the industry and he's good about staying out of the way and letting them speak about measurements and technical aspects

But he's hard working very fun and gets people fired up about our industry I like him he's fun to watch

As far as the issue in this video I'm not very worked up about it. I already understand that Amir is measuring for engineering excellence not audibility in his avr and pre pro measurements I know that most of his criticisms are never audible

So unless it's got glitchy bugs or software or it's an gross engineering issue he turns up it's not influencing my buying

You know as well as I do Lovin any avr or pre pro without room eq and dsp applied and amplifiers as long as they are not pushed past they're limits sounds exactly the same in a double blind test.

So for me it's more about the feature set and can I get what I want at a certain price point etc. etc.

The problem Amir runs into is he doesn't really put a disclaimer on it explaining this. Hell say its not audible but only briefly at certain points ik his review. ASR used to be more of a niche site now it's becoming mainstream which is a good thing. But now the site attracts regular less informed more first time buyers that are going to not understand that his criticism is not based on actual real world audible performance. But on engineering tests that he sets the benchmark very high for. These poor first timers are going to freak out when he shows certain numbers or doesn't recommend something and sadly they might miss out on what would be the perfect purchase for them

I just think he needs to adjust to the popularity his site has attracted thats all. Which I think he will over time. He'll be fine. And if not it's his site he can say anything he likes really if we're being fair about it.

Thank you for a very balanced view that reflects reality with high accuracy, accurate enough that I think you will get at least 100 dB SINAD on this post if measured on ASR.

 

[Trell]

I don't think Amir declares product superiority except in certain particular measurements....not overall. His recommendations aren't an overall usefullness/audibility thing, more just what can be achieved and that some don't.

Amir generally tests for usage in HiFi, and for some reviews he can be very explicit about this in his comments. One can see that, for instance, in reviews of some pro audio devices that has much functionality or otherwise clearly not intended for home usage.

 

[Timforhifi]

I don’t think anyone should pay attention to his reviews. Mostly useless commentary and riddled with mistakes.

he’s admitted that he doesn’t listen to any of these products and wouldn’t even know what high fidelity is.

 

[isolar8001]

I don’t think anyone should pay attention to his reviews. Mostly useless commentary and riddled with mistakes.

he’s admitted that he doesn’t listen to any of these products and wouldn’t even know what high fidelity is.

I don't know how to feel about Amir myself.
He has technical knowledge, no doubt. But, he has just as much of an elitist attitude.
Rather than try to get to the bottom of the Pioneers results, he just called it junk. No skin off his nose.
He didn't even use it as it was intended.