ASR review of Pioneer VSX-LX505 (Onkyo RZ50)

[isolar8001]

Hey All......Over on ASR, Amir has just done a devastating review of the Pioneer VSX-LX505 (and in turn the Onkyo RZ50)
His claim is that power gets reduced to 20 watts per channel after 35 seconds. Just check this out....thoughts ?? TIA.

Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Pioneer VSX-LX505 ELITE 9.2 Channel AV Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and is a refurbished unit. Normal cost is US $1699. As you see, the front panel is the same old interface from decade+ back. The on-screen menus...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[PENG]

Hey All......Over on ASR, Amir has just done a devastating review of the Pioneer VSX-LX505 (and in turn the Onkyo RZ50)
His claim is that power gets reduced to 20 watts per channel after 35 seconds. Just check this out....thoughts ?? TIA.

Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Pioneer VSX-LX505 ELITE 9.2 Channel AV Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and is a refurbished unit. Normal cost is US $1699. As you see, the front panel is the same old interface from decade+ back. The on-screen menus...

www.audiosciencereview.com

For practical use, the power limiting feature should be transparent to you. He didn't like the power amp section for sure but he was impressed with the preamp/dac. For those who are going to use external amps anyway, the Onkyo/Pioner are great alternative to Denon, Marantz and Yamaha's.

 

[isolar8001]

Thanks..
I have the VSX-LX305 and am very happy with it.

Something just strikes me as uncouth with his review.
I've had receivers since the 70's (Yamaha CR1020 and Luxman R117 to name a few)
Just replaced a Denon with this Pioneer.
I would love to see if someone else has thrown this up on the bench and what results they get.

 

[PENG]

Thanks..
I have the VSX-LX305 and am very happy with it.

Something just strikes me as uncouth with his review.
I've had receivers since the 70's (Yamaha CR1020 and Luxman R117 to name a few)
Just replaced a Denon with this Pioneer.
I would love to see if someone else has thrown this up on the bench and what results they get.

If you have been visiting ASR long enough you will know that Amir's comments are much more about the "science" part than the real world performance based on perceived sound quality. He often emphasized that noise, if he deemed it high, will be audible but on distortions he would tell you it may not be audible, but he still sets a high bar for the Duts to get his recommendations, with price factored in too. Obvioulsy, we don't have to agree with him but that's sort of his way.

 

[isolar8001]

If you have been visiting ASR long enough you will know that Amir's comments are much more about the "science" part than the real world performance based on perceived sound quality. He often emphasized that noise, if he deemed it high, will be audible but on distortions he would tell you it may not be audible, but he still sets a high bar for the Duts to get his recommendations, with price factored in too. Obvioulsy, we don't have to agree with him but that's sort of his way.

Yeah....Amirs the kind of guy I can't criticize, even though I don't always agree with his methods of evaluation or his conclusions.

Just for fun, I pulled up the web interface on my unit and monitored the protection screen on the web interface.
Turned off my subs, so the amps have to work hard...pushed my speakers hard with some bass heavy content.
Protection never kicked in, and I sure didn't notice anything diminished in the output.

 

[Swerd]

Something just strikes me as uncouth with his review.

You aren't the only one who thinks that Amir's reviewing style is "uncouth". That's a good way to describe it .

Amir tends to overemphasize the technical aspect of measuring the performance of audio products. I think he tends to throw money at that aspect without understanding its limitations. Fine if you have the money. But at the same time, he often seems to ignore, or fail to understand, what technical aspects of audio gear listeners can audibly detect, and which aspects are not detectable.

It would be good science if one tests audio gear to find out just what is the breaking or failure point. How far can you push it before its performance falls outside of specified operating parameters? But Amir has been known to find that point, and then base that as the main criticism of the product. He's done this with both electronic gear and loudspeakers. And, he's often been criticized for that. My question is, if he ignores how manufacturers intended people to use a product, what else does he ignore?

 

[PENG]

Yeah....Amirs the kind of guy I can't criticize, even though I don't always agree with his methods of evaluation or his conclusions.

Just for fun, I pulled up the web interface on my unit and monitored the protection screen on the web interface.
Turned off my subs, so the amps have to work hard...pushed my speakers hard with some bass heavy content.
Protection never kicked in, and I sure didn't notice anything diminished in the output.

Exactly my point, thank you for confirming with your experiment. Iirc, Amir's sweep tests was for 30 seconds when the limit kicked in, how many and how often normal people would push hard for so long using real world media contents? Probably never. No wonder Onkyo/Pioneer owners had no complaints about sound quality.

 

[PENG]

You aren't the only one who thinks that Amir's reviewing style is "uncouth". That's a good way to describe it .

Amir tends to overemphasize the technical aspect of measuring the performance of audio products. I think he tends to throw money at that aspect without understanding its limitations. Fine if you have the money. But at the same time, he often seems to ignore, or fail to understand, what technical aspects of audio gear listeners can audibly detect, and which aspects are not detectable.

He probably did ignore certain things, but I think he understands "what technical aspects of.....can audibly detect..". As evidence, aside from often using qualifying commentary that something not being audible/detectable, he even took the Klippel test and let people know how low he scored (lower than mine iirc). But then again, unless you visit the site regularly and read a ton of the posts, you may get a different impression and that may not reflect the reality well enough.

 

[isolar8001]

I browse ASR occasionally.....
After about 10 minutes the whole site reminds me of the customers that would walk into the Hi Fi shops I used to work at with a copy of Stereo Review or High Fidelity mags, ready to shove charts and graphs at me.
I usually just drop kicked them.

 

[Swerd]

He probably did ignore certain things, but I think he understands "what technical aspects of.....can audibly detect..". As evidence, aside from often using qualifying commentary that something not being audible/detectable, he even took the Klippel test and let people know how low he scored (lower than mine iirc). But then again, unless you visit the site regularly and read a ton of the posts, you may get a different impression and that may not reflect the reality well enough.

I disagree.

If I remember correctly, Amir has at one time or another claimed that he ignores what may or may not be audible, precisely because he thinks his measurement methods are superior. Yes, he buys state-of-the-art measuring equipment – but he doesn't seem understand that no test gear, or measurement method, has unlimited capacity. You can push audio gear to power or volume levels beyond which they can respond in a linear fashion. The same is true for the test gear – something he doesn't recognize or respect in his reviews. It's not scientific, its arrogant.

There is a difference between something that is the best that money can buy, and something that is good enough to do the job. I know there are plenty of people who confuse the two. But I cannot believe or trust audio gear reviews from someone who ignores the difference.

 

[PENG]

I disagree.

If I remember correctly, Amir has at one time or another claimed that he ignores what may or may not be audible, precisely because he thinks his measurement methods are superior. Yes, he buys state-of-the-art measuring equipment – but he doesn't seem understand that no test gear, or measurement method, has unlimited capacity. You can push audio gear to power or volume levels beyond which they can respond in a linear fashion. The same is true for the test gear – something he doesn't recognize or respect in his reviews. It's not scientific, its arrogant.

There is a difference between something that is the best that money can buy, and something that is good enough. I know there are plenty of people who confuse the two. But I cannot believe or trust audio gear reviews from someone who ignores the difference.

Okay then, we agree to disagree.

 

[Trell]

I browse ASR occasionally.....
After about 10 minutes the whole site reminds me of the customers that would walk into the Hi Fi shops I used to work at with a copy of Stereo Review or High Fidelity mags, ready to shove charts and graphs at me.
I usually just drop kicked them.

ASR do have measurements of various types of devices that are otherwise hard to find, if you find them at all.

For other aspects, like user interface or some types of functionality, you’ll have to go elsewhere.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd like to see more people perform the in-home test of this particular model (is the Onkyo/Pioneer pretty much a Denon/Marantz difference?). Might be hard to replicate test tone torture, tho. As to Amir's testing, it is what it is (and is quite limited on an avr/pre-pro), his comments can be taken poorly by many, tho.

 

[gene]

Hey All......Over on ASR, Amir has just done a devastating review of the Pioneer VSX-LX505 (and in turn the Onkyo RZ50)
His claim is that power gets reduced to 20 watts per channel after 35 seconds. Just check this out....thoughts ?? TIA.

Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Pioneer VSX-LX505 ELITE 9.2 Channel AV Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and is a refurbished unit. Normal cost is US $1699. As you see, the front panel is the same old interface from decade+ back. The on-screen menus...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Those are the receiver Nanny's I always warn about. I measured similar with Integra.

Integra DRX-4.3 9.2 Channel AV Receiver Review

The Integra DRX-4.3 AV receiver sports the latest in HD audio/video with 9 amplified channels on-board, expandable to a 7.1.4 speaker configuration. Our review discusses its performance and shortcomings.

www.audioholics.com

Seems like Onkyo is even worse than Yamaha in this regard. Reality is this is more a bench test issue than something that will come up with real world usage in most cases.

I was able to measure some impressive 4-ohm power figures, the DRX-4.3 was unable to sustain those figures for more than a few seconds without current limiting kicking in along with the very quiet fan. This would limit output voltage to 13Vrms or 40 watts/ch (4-ohms) and the only way to restore nominal operation was to unplug and power-cycle the receiver, after you let it cool down for a bit.

 

[Danzilla31]

Those are the receiver Nanny's I always warn about. I measured similar with Integra.

Integra DRX-4.3 9.2 Channel AV Receiver Review

The Integra DRX-4.3 AV receiver sports the latest in HD audio/video with 9 amplified channels on-board, expandable to a 7.1.4 speaker configuration. Our review discusses its performance and shortcomings.

www.audioholics.com

Seems like Onkyo is even worse than Yamaha in this regard. Reality is this is more a bench test issue than something that will come up with real world usage in most cases.

Gene is there any reason why these companies are putting in such aggressive nanny protection circuits?

Is they're any way you guys can message them in future reviews that the majority of us customers Id wager it's safe to say would like them removed or just not implemented so aggressively?

I know it's probably not applicable in most real world use but still I'd like to know my over $1000 gear can push out its rated power for a good length of time.

 

[Golfx]

I browse ASR occasionally.....
After about 10 minutes the whole site reminds me of the customers that would walk into the Hi Fi shops I used to work at with a copy of Stereo Review or High Fidelity mags, ready to shove charts and graphs at me.
I usually just drop kicked them.

I sold equipment too. I liked knowledgeable customers.

 

[PENG]

Gene is there any reason why these companies are putting in such aggressive nanny protection circuits?

Is they're any way you guys can message them in future reviews that the majority of us customers Id wager it's safe to say would like them removed or just not implemented so aggressively?

I know it's probably not applicable in most real world use but still I'd like to know my over $1000 gear can push out its rated power for a good length of time.

I think the concept is good as such schemes could lower warranty costs that should benefit us consumers too. As to how aggressive the nannies they need to hire, the devil is in the details.

 

[everettT]

Gene is there any reason why these companies are putting in such aggressive nanny protection circuits?

Is they're any way you guys can message them in future reviews that the majority of us customers Id wager it's safe to say would like them removed or just not implemented so aggressively?

I know it's probably not applicable in most real world use but still I'd like to know my over $1000 gear can push out its rated power for a good length of time.

I don't disagree at all except with the fact that unless user error is involved I doubt we would ever be able to push it into protection or before potentially damaging a tweeter.

 

[gene]

Gene is there any reason why these companies are putting in such aggressive nanny protection circuits?

Is they're any way you guys can message them in future reviews that the majority of us customers Id wager it's safe to say would like them removed or just not implemented so aggressively?

I know it's probably not applicable in most real world use but still I'd like to know my over $1000 gear can push out its rated power for a good length of time.

I've been battling this with Yamaha for decades. Onkyo we have almost no direct contact with so that's more challenging. Bottom line is these Japanese companies tend to be extremely concerned with reliability above all else. They want to minimize field failures and product returns. Atmos made this worse by increasing channel densities but sticking with inefficient linear amp designs.

The Onkyo protection is more agregious than Yamaha since you literally have to often power cycle the product to take it out of power limiting once its tripped. That's just stupid IMO. Certainly worth a YT video to bring more awareness. Still, many happy users of these products prove that real world impact is far less than the sensationalist reporting of declaring the product unfit for recommendation, IMO.

 

[isolar8001]

I've been battling this with Yamaha for decades. Onkyo we have almost no direct contact with so that's more challenging. Bottom line is these Japanese companies tend to be extremely concerned with reliability above all else. They want to minimize field failures and product returns. Atmos made this worse by increasing channel densities but sticking with inefficient linear amp designs.

The Onkyo protection is more agregious than Yamaha since you literally have to often power cycle the product to take it out of power limiting once its tripped. That's just stupid IMO. Certainly worth a YT video to bring more awareness. Still, many happy users of these products prove that real world impact is far less than the sensationalist reporting of declaring the product unfit for recommendation, IMO.

Thank You , Gene.
I'm sure all of us Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra owners (that's a lot of owners) wouldn't mind seeing this addressed in one of your videos.
It is a bit concerning when a major audio website has just told all of us said owners we have been had.