ASR review of Pioneer VSX-LX505 (Onkyo RZ50)

[PENG]

Thanks for sharing the Youthman video. Good stuff. Hope he's ready for the ASR SINAD disciples backlash to ensue.

Common Gene, you are more fair, open, and objective minded than that. No one is perfect, Youthman said things that may not make sense to me either but I wouldn't label him with anything based on a few things he said. Just because someone put too much focus on SINAD does not mean there will be backlash to ensue...., and, if there are, they just need to be educated by knowledgeable people like you.

 

[PENG]

He's just a salesman. Streaming doesn't sound like poo (unless something is wrong, settings wise or something)...Tidal is fine altho I think their MQA nonsense is just bullshit. I trialed Tidal at one point, more the choices and user interface and JayZ's ads that turned me off. Paul sells power cords and wires as improvements to audio, just a bullshitter....plus his gear doesn't measure particularly well.

And, some scientist, engineers, and other experts can talk like salespersons (some are very knowledgeable), but unfortunately the reverse is also true.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Good point I want to reply back but I got to get going! I'll jump back in here later when I get back home

Yeah, Dan, take care of your patients first! Haha.

 

[lovinthehd]

And, some scientist, engineers, and other experts can talk like salespersons (some are very knowledgeable), but unfortunately the reverse is also true.

I'll take the former over the latter....and he's not particularly convincing....he creeps me out.

 

[Danzilla31]

It's there already. If Amir took a more diplomatic approach, he could have said the same things without getting misunderstood (unintentionally or intentionally by others) so badly. As it is now, unless people (e.g. me, HD, and a few other AH members) read the fine prints and try to interpret his comments as is, without seeing it through wearing tinted glasses, might just believe the hearsay, such as, tell people not to buy something because of SINAD, ASR cult, ASR people focus too much, or only on SINAD, ASR/Amir doesn't understand distortions are poor indicator of sound quality etc.etc.etc... The fact is, he has often made reference to audibility along with what he considered non sota results, such as:

For example, below is what he said about the 3800:

He did not recommend it, and explained why, but that's not the same as telling people not to buy one, and never implied the 3800 would not sound as good as the 3700 with the original AKM DAC.



In another example, he actually recommended the AV8805, even said ".....buy......" despite the significantly lower SINAD score than even the much cheaper Denon AVRs. So clearly other metrics than just SINAD are important to consider.



One more, on "more jitter on coax" (Anthem AVM70):



On ranking, ASR does keep a chart of ranking by SINAD but that does not mean he considers SINAD the only important metric. For the exact reason for that chart one would have to ask him, but it could simply be that THD+N is one metric that probably all reviewers use for years, including the old S&V, Home theater magazines, Stereophile, Home cinema choice, Hometheaterhifi.com, SoundstageHifi etc., just to name a few.

There are numerous other examples. I don't need to defend him anyway. I just want to do my part to debunk some of the hearsay. I also know my efforts in doing so bound to be in vain because I don't have megaphones that many youtubers do.

Yeah I'm not bashing him. I understand his beef with onkyo on the power limiter the same Gene has you have to power cycle it which the buyer should be aware that's a legitimate beef

But I also agree with these guys that at times over on ASR they do go a bit overboard on measurements that are not audible. I don't think Amir is as bad about it as some of his members are but it is a culture that is encouraged at times over there. The sad part is you have members over they're waiting for a company to put out the magic measuring AVR and its never going to happen because understandably so these companies are not going to invest in something
cost wise that is not ever going to be detectable by the human ear

These same members would probably be very happy with what's out they're now. Sadly they might end up spending way too much money chasing down the rabbit hole on certain measurements that do not matter

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It's there already. If Amir took a more diplomatic approach, he could have said the same things without getting misunderstood (unintentionally or intentionally by others) so badly. As it is now, unless people (e.g. me, HD, and a few other AH members) read the fine prints and try to interpret his comments as is, without seeing it through wearing tinted glasses, might just believe the hearsay, such as, tell people not to buy something because of SINAD, ASR cult, ASR people focus too much, or only on SINAD, ASR/Amir doesn't understand distortions are poor indicator of sound quality etc.etc.etc... The fact is, he has often made reference to audibility along with what he considered non sota results, such as:

For example, below is what he said about the 3800:

He did not recommend it, and explained why, but that's not the same as telling people not to buy one, and never implied the 3800 would not sound as good as the 3700 with the original AKM DAC.



In another example, he actually recommended the AV8805, even said ".....buy......" despite the significantly lower SINAD score than even the much cheaper Denon AVRs. So clearly other metrics than just SINAD are important to consider.



One more, on "more jitter on coax" (Anthem AVM70):



On ranking, ASR does keep a chart of ranking by SINAD but that does not mean he considers SINAD the only important metric. For the exact reason for that chart one would have to ask him, but it could simply be that THD+N is one metric that probably all reviewers use for years, including the old S&V, Home theater magazines, Stereophile, Home cinema choice, Hometheaterhifi.com, SoundstageHifi etc., just to name a few.

There are numerous other examples. I don't need to defend him anyway. I just want to do my part to debunk some of the hearsay. I also know my efforts in doing so bound to be in vain because I don't have megaphones that many youtubers do.

Here's the thing. Instead of looking at SINAD of -85dB vs -100dB, which might seem like a big difference, what if people looked at THD+N of 0.004% vs 0.001%?

Would people say, "Wow, that's a huge difference between THD+N of 0.004% vs 0.001%" ?

 

[lovinthehd]

Here's the thing. Instead of looking at SINAD of -85dB vs -100dB, which might seem like a big difference, what if people looked at THD+N of 0.004% vs 0.001%?

Would people say, "Wow, that's a huge difference between THD+N of 0.004% vs 0.001%?

Good point. I've not checked your math, tho.

 

[Danzilla31]

It's there already. If Amir took a more diplomatic approach, he could have said the same things without getting misunderstood (unintentionally or intentionally by others) so badly. As it is now, unless people (e.g. me, HD, and a few other AH members) read the fine prints and try to interpret his comments as is, without seeing it through wearing tinted glasses, might just believe the hearsay, such as, tell people not to buy something because of SINAD, ASR cult, ASR people focus too much, or only on SINAD, ASR/Amir doesn't understand distortions are poor indicator of sound quality etc.etc.etc... The fact is, he has often made reference to audibility along with what he considered non sota results, such as:

For example, below is what he said about the 3800:

He did not recommend it, and explained why, but that's not the same as telling people not to buy one, and never implied the 3800 would not sound as good as the 3700 with the original AKM DAC.



In another example, he actually recommended the AV8805, even said ".....buy......" despite the significantly lower SINAD score than even the much cheaper Denon AVRs. So clearly other metrics than just SINAD are important to consider.



One more, on "more jitter on coax" (Anthem AVM70):



On ranking, ASR does keep a chart of ranking by SINAD but that does not mean he considers SINAD the only important metric. For the exact reason for that chart one would have to ask him, but it could simply be that THD+N is one metric that probably all reviewers use for years, including the old S&V, Home theater magazines, Stereophile, Home cinema choice, Hometheaterhifi.com, SoundstageHifi etc., just to name a few.

There are numerous other examples. I don't need to defend him anyway. I just want to do my part to debunk some of the hearsay. I also know my efforts in doing so bound to be in vain because I don't have megaphones that many youtubers do.

One cool thing about the youthtube video was Buckeye amps is getting some well deserved love and recognition. Great to hear them getting a shout out

 

[PENG]

One cool thing about the youthtube video was Buckeye amps is getting some well deserved love and recognition. Great to hear them getting a shout out

I think the video content is good, it's the labelling I don't particularly like. Lots of youtube are like that, for whatever reasons, many of the videos have nothing to do with the labelling (or whatever they are call), you may see one that says something that would make you think it's about world war 3, end of the world etc., but you actually watch the video you may find the contents have nothing to do with WW3/end of world. Very strange, don't know why it is like that with many YTV, do you?

 

[isolar8001]

I think it all comes down to sensationalism...grab attention, push your product. And yeah, its annoying when you watch a 20 minute video with only 1 minute of what it promoted to get you to watch it.

Thoughty2 is a good channel. He seems to always deliver. (non audio/video)

The cheapaudioman seems to be struggling...he quit his job to do YouTube full time....big mistake. He's pumping out a new video every day, all about...nothing.

 

[Trell]

There are numerous other examples. I don't need to defend him anyway. I just want to do my part to debunk some of the hearsay. I also know my efforts in doing so bound to be in vain because I don't have megaphones that many youtubers do.

I find it disingenuous when people just write that Amir did not recommend the Denon AVR 3800 because of low SINAD even after being told that was not the case at all. Some of the critics does not bother to read the conclusion, apparently.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Good point. I've not checked your math, tho.

OK. Here are the links from ASR:

Denon AVR-X3800H Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3800H 9.4 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $1,699. Not much to say about the look of the unit as it is pretty much similar/same as last generations. Here is the back panel...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of Denon AVR-X3700H 9.2 channel 8K Home Theater AV Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a local member and costs US $1,199. Visually, if you have seen one AVR, you have seen the look of the AVR-X3700H: The input selector is plastic and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Denon X3700: 0.001% THD+N, SINAD -98dB
Denon X3800: 0.004% THD+N, SINAD -87dB

So I was wrong on the exact numbers. I was calculating for "THD vs SINAD", but don't know the "THD+N = SINAD" equation.

But doesn't it seem like a "MIND GAME"?

One SINAD is "98" and the other SINAD is "87". It seems like a much bigger difference than if we compare 0.001% vs 0.004% THD+N.

One is a difference of "11dB" and the other is a difference of 0.003% THD+N.

 

[Danzilla31]

Common Gene, you are more fair, open, and objective minded than that. No one is perfect, Youthman said things that may not make sense to me either but I wouldn't label him with anything based on a few things he said. Just because someone put too much focus on SINAD does not mean there will be backlash to ensue...., and, if there are, they just need to be educated by knowledgeable people like you.

The thing is Youthman never bashed ASR. They were on a live stream and just answered a question that a viewer posted.

Those 2 guys on the feed with Youthman are in the industry and know they're stuff. And even they were diplomatic with they're feedback. But they did a GREAT job pointing something out that even you have brought up PENG. Which is don't let the importance of measurements impact a peice of gears value for you if those measurements are not aaudible. I feel there are some on the site that do get a little carried away with numbers. Unless it's a glaring engineering issue that could affect its reliability then that point should be emphasized more by ASR reviews

Something like I wouldn't get this myself because it doesn't meet my very high standards due to my scientific background in thus industry BUT the everyday user should have no problem enjoying this product because nothing I'm measuring you will be able to audibly detect.

A statement like that would keep all this drama away from ASR.

But when you spend most of your review pretty strongly bashing a product on said measurements then you even go so far as to not recommend buying it. Yeah I understand why he's getting some heat on this.

Now it's his site. And most of these products are customer send ins. So he is free to say what he wants to be fair. But others are free to say how they feel about that as well.

 

[Danzilla31]

I think the video content is good, it's the labelling I don't particularly like. Lots of youtube are like that, for whatever reasons, many of the videos have nothing to do with the labelling (or whatever they are call), you may see one that says something that would make you think it's about world war 3, end of the world etc., but you actually watch the video you may find the contents have nothing to do with WW3/end of world. Very strange, don't know why it is like that with many YTV, do you?

It's just to catch views. Youtubers rely on how many views they get. So they have to put out a title that grabs your attention.

 

[Trell]

Good point. I've not checked your math, tho.

He likes to randomly insert zeros into THD as percentage and don’t like to be called out on that. So count the number of 0 carefully.

 

[everettT]

He likes to randomly insert zeros into THD as percentage and don’t like to be called out on that. So count the number of 0 carefully.

I thought you two were muting each other?

 

[Danzilla31]

I think the video content is good, it's the labelling I don't particularly like. Lots of youtube are like that, for whatever reasons, many of the videos have nothing to do with the labelling (or whatever they are call), you may see one that says something that would make you think it's about world war 3, end of the world etc., but you actually watch the video you may find the contents have nothing to do with WW3/end of world. Very strange, don't know why it is like that with many YTV, do you?

Final thoughts on this. It's crazy to know that I can get the same audio enjoyment from a crown XlS 2502 as I can from my Anthem amplifiers. Or ATI or Monoprice. That's insane. And gives one a lot of headroom on shopping at different price points for what they want

 

[Danzilla31]

OK. Here are the links from ASR:

Denon AVR-X3800H Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3800H 9.4 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $1,699. Not much to say about the look of the unit as it is pretty much similar/same as last generations. Here is the back panel...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of Denon AVR-X3700H 9.2 channel 8K Home Theater AV Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a local member and costs US $1,199. Visually, if you have seen one AVR, you have seen the look of the AVR-X3700H: The input selector is plastic and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Denon X3700: 0.001% THD+N, SINAD -98dB
Denon X3800: 0.004% THD+N, SINAD -87dB

So I was wrong on the exact numbers.

But doesn't it seem like a "MIND GAME"?

One SINAD is "98" and the other SINAD is "87". It seems like a much bigger difference than if we compare 0.001% vs 0.004% THD+N.

One is a difference of "11dB" and the other is a difference of 0.003% THD+N.

No wonder that stuff is not audible

 

[everettT]

Final thoughts on this. It's crazy to know that I can get the same audio enjoyment from a crown XlS 2502 as I can from my Anthem amplifiers. Or ATI or Monoprice. That's insane. And gives one a lot of headroom on shopping at different price points for what they want

The only times I've ever heard audible issues has been with some of these products was with 100+db horns, other then that, not really.

 

[lovinthehd]

OK. Here are the links from ASR:

Denon AVR-X3800H Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3800H 9.4 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $1,699. Not much to say about the look of the unit as it is pretty much similar/same as last generations. Here is the back panel...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of Denon AVR-X3700H 9.2 channel 8K Home Theater AV Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a local member and costs US $1,199. Visually, if you have seen one AVR, you have seen the look of the AVR-X3700H: The input selector is plastic and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Denon X3700: 0.001% THD+N, SINAD -98dB
Denon X3800: 0.004% THD+N, SINAD -87dB

So I was wrong on the exact numbers.

But doesn't it seem like a "MIND GAME"?

One SINAD is "98" and the other SINAD is "87". It seems like a much bigger difference than if we compare 0.001% vs 0.004% THD+N.

One is a difference of "11dB" and the other is a difference of 0.003% THD+N.

SINAD does make it "look" more severe....and I can't do that SINAD to THD+N in percentage conversion in my head (yet)....