Onkyo Tx-Rz50 vs Denon X3800H

[Rylan]

If it was me I’d look at buying one better sub now and adding a second later if needed. $800 for a pair of rsl 10’s isn’t a bad deal but it’s a real entry level product. Seems like a bad investment that you’ll sell within the first year. Resale isn’t great on rsl speakers and not because of quality, but for their more niche standing.
I saw the Rythmik fvx12 was mentioned at $1100. The monoprice monolith 15 is regularly on sale around $1100 and will destroy that Rythmik. You’d need 4 or maybe 5 speedwoofers to equal the output of one mono 15. In a room that large you need more power.

you should also have much more money in speakers than your avr. Denon 4700 won’t sound any different than a used denon 4500 or a 3700. I know you have a 9ch setup so you’ll need a little higher end avr. Right now your avr costs as much as all your speakers. If those rsl don’t get loud enough right now they’ll only sound worse over time. The in ceiling are ok but I’d look at a different front sound stage at the very least.

you said you’ve spent around $5500 with everything? That’s all 9.1 rsl and denon 4700?

If you’re interested I could build you a much better setup for $5000.

mono 15 $1100
Focal 826 $1400 a pair
Focal chora center $450
Focal chora surrounds $600
You can buy any avr you want under $1500 and meet your $5000 total.

I could build multiple other setups as well with Jbl, wharfedale, revel and more.

Thank you for all those details. I really appreciate the suggestions I’ll clarify the $5000. First off, $2000 of the $5000 was for an 85” QLED TV. So really I spent around $3000 on audio so far. Just as of yesterday I did some deep searching and found the Denon x4700h for $1329. I called Best Buy and did a price match adjustment which they refunded me. In total I saved $800 on the Denon so far. I also have 2 years no interest on it. I feel that was a pretty good deal for that particular Denon IMO.

RSL cost me $1255 for the CG3/CG23 system with 1 Speedwoofer. I still have not made any changes or upgrades to RSL yet but I will be visiting with owner this afternoon.

The rest of the money was for a 4K Sony BlueRay player (UBP-X700) that @gene recommend, and some other audio accessories.

I wanted to show the breakdown so you can see the amount actually spent on the Audio side so far. I’m willing to add an extra $1000 max to my set up. Hope that helps. I’m still trying to navigate the best speaker selections. I will consider your comment “Seems like a bad investment that you’ll sell within the first year.”

 

[Danzilla31]

Thank you for all those details. I really appreciate the suggestions I’ll clarify the $5000. First off, $2000 of the $5000 was for an 85” QLED TV. So really I spent around $3000 on audio so far. Just as of yesterday I did some deep searching and found the Denon x4700h for $1329. I called Best Buy and did a price match adjustment which they refunded me. In total I saved $800 on the Denon so far. I also have 2 years no interest on it. I feel that was a pretty good deal for that particular Denon IMO.

RSL cost me $1255 for the CG3/CG23 system with 1 Speedwoofer. I still have not made any changes or upgrades to RSL yet but I will be visiting with owner this afternoon.

The rest of the money was for a 4K Sony BlueRay player (UBP-X700) that @gene recommend, and some other audio accessories.

I wanted to show the breakdown so you can see the amount actually spent on the Audio side so far. I’m willing to add an extra $1000 max to my set up. Hope that helps. I’m still trying to navigate the best speaker selections. I will consider your comment “Seems like a bad investment that you’ll sell within the first year.”

I think the poster might have missed the part where you told us you NEED to stay on a tighter budget for now but in a couple years will upgrade when your ready

For those of us who have owned RSL (I'm not saying the poster hasnt) for your budget the RSL is a FANTASTIC system and solution for what you need and will keep you very happy until you've set back the funds to upgrade to a bigger system down the road

 

[Rylan]

I think the poster might have missed the part where you told us you NEED to stay on a tighter budget for now but in a couple years will upgrade when your ready

For those of us who have owned RSL (I'm not saying the poster hasnt) for your budget the RSL is a FANTASTIC system and solution for what you need and will keep you very happy until you've set back the funds to upgrade to a bigger system down the road

@Danzilla31 I agree with you. I wanted to clarify that the $5000 i spent wasn't all on the audio side for the previous poster. I’m sure if I had $5000 only designated towards audio, I could piece together a better system

 

[Rylan]

I just had an hour phone call with the owner at RSL. Great conversation!

I learned a few things I’ll share. @lovinthehd, you brought up a good question with me and @Danzilla31 when you mentioned if one wireless adapter for the (2) 10s speedwoofers could add some complexity to delay related needs? The answer I got was that it would be best to have 2 wireless adapters. Since my 4700 has two independent sub outs, in order to keep both of them independent from each other it would require having two wireless adapters as one would not allow for this.

This next part I’m pulling from memory from our conversation so I’m hoping I recall this correctly. He said that with 1 Speedwoofer, 95% of what you hear is 20Hz and above and then at -3dB it then begins to roll off. By adding a second speedwooferwould allow for a +3dB increase on all frequencies, or possibly up to +6dB if they are stacked.

Next is RSL’s new 12” Speedwoofer, the 12S. It should be available sometime around March. Original release was supposed to be January but it sounds like it will now be pushed out a bit. The price is not set yet but may be around the $699 to $799 range once the shipping is worked out. The 12S measures 19 1/2” Wide, 22 1/2” High, and 22”Deep. This Sub can get down to 16Hz with no EQ, or room correction applied. It has very high SPL and very high accuracy. Also Gene had a video with the guys at RSL talking about the new 12S. They start talking about it at min 52:00.

A few specs on the 12S:

• 12” Ultra a ultra linear high excursion woofer
• Integrated woofer heat sink shorting ring
• Remote control with front panel display (sleep mode)
• Multi-Mode SP settings for every room
• Wired in rear connection for custom integration
• Proprietary a compression guide tuning and baffling
• 16HZ -3dB Anechoic (Ref. Setting with no SP boost or extension)
• 500 RMS/1550W peak amplifier power output
• Turbulent free rest vent
• Adjustable high-pass output 50 - 250Hz w/bypass function from speaker level or line level input
  

 

[Timforhifi]

I definitely missed how you allocated your funds. I’ve had and heard rsl speakers and I wasn’t trying to say they’re bad at all. I just know so many people that put together a system and already have issues from the beginning and want to upgrade right away. Sometimes it’s cheaper in the long run to spend more at first and not sell old equipment on the used market.

 

[Rylan]

I definitely missed how you allocated your funds. I’ve had and heard rsl speakers and I wasn’t trying to say they’re bad at all. I just know so many people that put together a system and already have issues from the beginning and want to upgrade right away. Sometimes it’s cheaper in the long run to spend more at first and not sell old equipment on the used market.

I can agree with that thought process. In fact it’s great advice. I think it’s important to think through all those “what ifs” and not to make any quick decisions. Being a lot of this is still new to me, I’m asking 100s of questions and taking my time. I don’t want to make a quick uneducated decision. I value and appreciate everyone’s feedback on this forum and it’s really helped me a tremendous amount already. So I appreciate and welcome all your thoughts and comments

 

[Danzilla31]

I just had an hour phone call with the owner at RSL. Great conversation!

I learned a few things I’ll share. @lovinthehd, you brought up a good question with me and @Danzilla31 when you mentioned if one wireless adapter for the (2) 10s speedwoofers could add some complexity to delay related needs? The answer I got was that it would be best to have 2 wireless adapters. Since my 4700 has two independent sub outs, in order to keep both of them independent from each other it would require having two wireless adapters as one would not allow for this.

This next part I’m pulling from memory from our conversation so I’m hoping I recall this correctly. He said that with 1 Speedwoofer, 95% of what you hear is 20Hz and above and then at -3dB it then begins to roll off. By adding a second speedwooferwould allow for a +3dB increase on all frequencies, or possibly up to +6dB if they are stacked.

Next is RSL’s new 12” Speedwoofer, the 12S. It should be available sometime around March. Original release was supposed to be January but it sounds like it will now be pushed out a bit. The price is not set yet but may be around the $699 to $799 range once the shipping is worked out. The 12S measures 19 1/2” Wide, 22 1/2” High, and 22”Deep. This Sub can get down to 16Hz with no EQ, or room correction applied. It has very high SPL and very high accuracy. Also Gene had a video with the guys at RSL talking about the new 12S. They start talking about it at min 52:00.

A few specs on the 12S:

• 12” Ultra a ultra linear high excursion woofer
• Integrated woofer heat sink shorting ring
• Remote control with front panel display (sleep mode)
• Multi-Mode SP settings for every room
• Wired in rear connection for custom integration
• Proprietary a compression guide tuning and baffling
• 16HZ -3dB Anechoic (Ref. Setting with no SP boost or extension)
• 500 RMS/1550W peak amplifier power output
• Turbulent free rest vent
• Adjustable high-pass output 50 - 250Hz w/bypass function from speaker level or line level input

Man I'm excited about the 12s if that's they're asking price that's an insanely good value for a sub I'm sure audioholics will be measuring them too

 

[Rylan]

Man I'm excited about the 12s if that's they're asking price that's an insanely good value for a sub I'm sure audioholics will be measuring them too

I agree! That price is great. On the video, Gene is very impressed as well with everything discussed.
So I have a few options with RSL.
Option 1 - (1) 12S speedwoofer
Option 2 - (2) 10S speedwoofers
Option 3 - (1) 10S + (1) 12S
Option 4 - (1) 12S and down the road buy a second 12S

 

[PENG]

I agree! That price is great. On the video, Gene is very impressed as well with everything discussed.
So I have a few options with RSL.
Option 1 - (1) 12S speedwoofer
Option 2 - (2) 10S speedwoofers
Option 3 - (1) 10S + (1) 12S
Option 4 - (1) 12S and down the road buy a second 12S

Do you have option 5 - trade in/or sell if he won't trade the 10S for a 12S and buy a second one down the road.

It seems to me given the info (distance, room size, loud listening, and you seem like a bass head)you have provided so far, it could be a case of buy once cry once. To many people single 10" driver subs are not really real subs. 12" subs are real subs that are small, but real.

 

[Rylan]

Do you have option 5 - trade in/or sell if he won't trade the 10S for a 12S and buy a second one down the road.

It seems to me given the info (distance, room size, loud listening, and you seem like a bass head)you have provided so far, it could be a case of buy once cry once. To many people single 10" driver subs are not really real subs. 12" subs are real subs that are small, but real.

I have verified that am not stuck with the 10S if I don’t want. I’m within my warranty and I can send back with no problems and get a 12S instead.

 

[panteragstk]

No. Happy wife happy life is stoopid. Hate that saying!!! I pay the mortgage too!

Happy spouse, happy house. Goes both ways.

 

[snakeeyes]

I have verified that am not stuck with the 10S if I don’t want. I’m within my warranty and I can send back with no problems and get a 12S instead.

IMHO Think this is your best plan. Get the 12S.

 

[Rylan]

IMHO Think this is your best plan. Get the 12S.

I agree. And I think ideally I will eventually purchase (2) of the 12S.

Also, @Danzilla31, I’m now thinking of saving the extra money for now by sticking with the CG3’s for surrounds and the CG23’s for the LCR. I think I feel better about investing in the better subs for now. I’m only about $700 in on the CG3 and CG23’s. If I were to upgrade to the CG5’s and CG25’s It would be an additional $900 - $1,000 after I trade in the CG3’s and CG23’s (not including the 12S). Also, RSL said they may have something possibly on the horizon for 2024 of a newer line for satellite speakers but it’s still something that’s on the table being discussed. So upgrading my bed layer speakers would be pretty easy as I’m not that heavily invested at this point. Also, I spent some time today making some adjustments and I’m really happy with how the CG3’s and 23s are sounding.

This may sound like a silly concern, but I found out the 25’s only come in the shiny piano gloss finish, and I really prefer a matte finish for many reasons. So being the upgrade isn’t something that I’m jumping up and down about, I think it might be best to get the subs I’m happy with and then build from there as time goes on.

 

[Danzilla31]

I agree. And I think ideally I will eventually purchase (2) of the 12S.

Also, @Danzilla31, I’m now thinking of saving the extra money for now by sticking with the CG3’s for surrounds and the CG23’s for the LCR. I think I feel better about investing in the better subs for now. I’m only about $700 in on the CG3 and CG23’s. If I were to upgrade to the CG5’s and CG25’s It would be an additional $900 - $1,000 after I trade in the CG3’s and CG23’s (not including the 12S). Also, RSL said they may have something possibly on the horizon for 2024 of a newer line for satellite speakers but it’s still something that’s on the table being discussed. So upgrading my bed layer speakers would be pretty easy as I’m not that heavily invested at this point. Also, I spent some time today making some adjustments and I’m really happy with how the CG3’s and 23s are sounding.

This may sound like a silly concern, but I found out the 25’s only come in the shiny piano gloss finish, and I really prefer a matte finish for many reasons. So being the upgrade isn’t something that I’m jumping up and down about, I think it might be best to get the subs I’m happy with and then build from there as time goes on.

Sounds like a plan! I'm not suprised your sticking with the cg3 line and going for the bigger sub. If you cross those baby's over correctly to the sub like you have those beauties can crank.

The bigger subs will give you the biggest impact to your room

 

[Rylan]

Sounds like a plan! I'm not suprised your sticking with the cg3 line and going for the bigger sub. If you cross those baby's over correctly to the sub like you have those beauties can crank.

The bigger subs will give you the biggest impact to your room

Awesome! Well as of now that’s my plan. I’m still open to thoughts and suggestions, but it feels good getting closer to my final decisions. I still have till March with the 12S. I also connected with Drew Kallen from RSL, and he’s going to get back with me next week sometime after he’s back from CES and give me specs and answer any questions I have about the 12S

 

[Rylan]

At Min 12:00 in this video, Gene and Nick talk about manually setting your distances using a laser measure (which I have). What are some opinions about setting them manually? I was under the impression that Audyssey took into account the room reflections which is why for example the L is 13.5 ft and the R is 13.2 ft. Am I better setting distances myself? Since the sub is a bit tricky with the delay, maybe it’s best to let audyssey set the sub, then after room correction is complete, I can then go in and manually laser check and adjust all the speakers except the sub. Any thoughts?

 

[PENG]

At Min 12:00 in this video, Gene and Nick talk about manually setting your distances using a laser measure (which I have). What are some opinions about setting them manually? I was under the impression that Audyssey took into account the room reflections which is why for example the L is 13.5 ft and the R is 13.2 ft. Am I better setting distances myself? Since the sub is a bit tricky with the delay, maybe it’s best to let audyssey set the sub, then after room correction is complete, I can then go in and manually laser check and adjust all the speakers except the sub. Any thoughts?

Did you watch the whole video, so you won't have taken anything out of context inadvertently? May be they just want to show people how easily it can be done if they want use physical distance just to feel good or other reasons that don't relate to the resulting sound quality? If the displayed distances based on D+M/Audyssey's calculations based on delay, are different than the physically measured distance by a small %, you are not going to hear the effects anyway. If it differs by a lot, say 10%, then I would say it is worth investigating.

By the way, just a side note, some people, including forum members, popular youtubers also talked about Audyssey used the wrong formula to calculate distance too, some more accurately pointed out the cause was due to Audyssey using the incorrect speed of sound. So they say you should adjust the distance manually by a factor of 0.875. When I checked into such claims, I concluded that (and of course that's based on my own assumption that may not be correct either) it likely wasn't an error but Audyssey (or D+M?) simply use engineering approximation/rule of thumb figure that is by rounding 343 m/s to 300 m/s. (check: 300/343 = 0.8746355685)

When you think about it, as long as the distances/delays for each speakers are calculated exactly the same way using the same speed of sound, does it really matter that much? I guess not.

Phase angle calculation time delay frequency calculate phase lag time shift between voltage difference time of arrival ITD oscilloscope measure two signals formula angle current voltage phi phase shift time difference - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

I know this is not your question, but by now it is obvious that you are a power googler so sooner or later you will come across that talk about D+M/Audyssey's incorrect calculation topic.

 

[PENG]

I agree. And I think ideally I will eventually purchase (2) of the 12S.

Also, @Danzilla31, I’m now thinking of saving the extra money for now by sticking with the CG3’s for surrounds and the CG23’s for the LCR. I think I feel better about investing in the better subs for now. I’m only about $700 in on the CG3 and CG23’s. If I were to upgrade to the CG5’s and CG25’s It would be an additional $900 - $1,000 after I trade in the CG3’s and CG23’s (not including the 12S). Also, RSL said they may have something possibly on the horizon for 2024 of a newer line for satellite speakers but it’s still something that’s on the table being discussed. So upgrading my bed layer speakers would be pretty easy as I’m not that heavily invested at this point. Also, I spent some time today making some adjustments and I’m really happy with how the CG3’s and 23s are sounding.

This may sound like a silly concern, but I found out the 25’s only come in the shiny piano gloss finish, and I really prefer a matte finish for many reasons. So being the upgrade isn’t something that I’m jumping up and down about, I think it might be best to get the subs I’m happy with and then build from there as time goes on.

Do you have the option to compare the two at home before finalizing your decision on the CG3 vs CG5? I don't usually put a lot of weight on subjective reviews, not even @shadyJ (though he is one of the few reviewers I trust as I know he is very knowledgeable and experienced), but I did take notice of what he said:

I did have some listening experience with RSL’s CG23 speakers and feel that the CG5 and CG25 are substantially better performers. That isn’t surprising since they are more expensive, but I thought that the lower frequency range on the CG5 and CG25 was much smoother and that the overall sound was more laid back.

 

[Rylan]

Did you watch the whole video, so you won't have taken anything out of context inadvertently? May be they just want to show people how easily it can be done if they want use physical distance just to feel good or other reasons that don't relate to the resulting sound quality? If the displayed distances based on D+M/Audyssey's calculations based on delay, are different than the physically measured distance by a small %, you are not going to hear the effects anyway. If it differs by a lot, say 10%, then I would say it is worth investigating.

By the way, just a side note, some people, including forum members, popular youtubers also talked about Audyssey used the wrong formula to calculate distance too, some more accurately pointed out the cause was due to Audyssey using the incorrect speed of sound. So they say you should adjust the distance manually by a factor of 0.875. When I checked into such claims, I concluded that (and of course that's based on my own assumption that may not be correct either) it likely wasn't an error but Audyssey (or D+M?) simply use engineering approximation/rule of thumb figure that is by rounding 343 m/s to 300 m/s. (check: 300/343 = 0.8746355685)

When you think about it, as long as the distances/delays for each speakers are calculated exactly the same way using the same speed of sound, does it really matter that much? I guess not.

Phase angle calculation time delay frequency calculate phase lag time shift between voltage difference time of arrival ITD oscilloscope measure two signals formula angle current voltage phi phase shift time difference - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

I know this is not your question, but by now it is obvious that you are a power googler so sooner or later you will come across that talk about D+M/Audyssey's incorrect calculation topic.

I did watch the entire video. From what I heard, Nick stated that when room correction sets distances, he never trusts it. The best thing you can do is get a laser measure and check each speaker from the seated ear position. It’s important to set them as accurately as possible. Subwoofers can be different. If you are running a DSP, there can be a slight delay. Gene goes on to explain how to compensate for the delay.

I didn’t hear anything else in the video that would lead me to believe it was taken out of context. D+M wasn’t mentioned, but sounds like there is more to Audyssey setting distances than I at least realized.

I love it, I have now been termed a power googler, haha, and that description is completely an accurate one. It might be bad enough that I may start to research the best ways to research lol. I do enjoy learning about the things I’m passionate about and I usually devote all of my free time to learn about that topic. This forum has been one of the best tools as I continue to learn about audio.

 

[PENG]

I did watch the entire video. From what I heard, Nick stated that when room correction sets distances, he never trusts it. The best thing you can do is get a laser measure and check each speaker from the seated ear position. It’s important to set them as accurately as possible. Subwoofers can be different. If you are running a DSP, there can be a slight delay. Gene goes on to explain how to compensate for the delay.

I didn’t hear anything else in the video that would lead me to believe it was taken out of context. D+M wasn’t mentioned, but sounds like there is more to Audyssey setting distances than I at least realized.

I love it, I have now been termed a power googler, haha, and that description is completely an accurate one. It might be bad enough that I may start to research the best ways to research lol. I do enjoy learning about the things I’m passionate about and I usually devote all of my free time to learn about that topic. This forum has been one of the best tools as I continue to learn about audio.

In that case, then I will watch that video myself. It is possible that it is just Nick's opinion.

You can do some simple experiment to find out if say, adding 3 inches to one or more, or all speakers makes a noticeable difference to you.