Onkyo Tx-Rz50 vs Denon X3800H

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks for that info. Yes what I had read was about the LFE channel being 10db higher with 20db allowance for peaks.

Also what I was referring to was not doing a manual set up, but still running Audyssey setup. Once it’s all done, I can then check the pink noise and see what the SPL meter is showing. So then my question is once I click on manual after I run Audyssey, can I then change and adjust settings from what Audyssey did in the manual set up? Do the settings from Audyssey show up under manual and that’s how I can make adjustments?

I don’t yet have the app but will purchase it
I said just manually setting of levels....it's definitely making the rounds these days (lots of posts about it in the Denon avr group on FB). There's also the translation of delay into feet calculation issue, too. Yes, manual speaker setup will allow you to make changes to what Audyssey/Denon set....not all of it is particularly Audyssey fwiw....like setting speakers to large and choice of crossover, that's Denon's choice particularly (the founder of Audyssey has always held that if using subs you should simply use bass management (i.e. set speakers to small) and start with an 80hz crossover.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I have the Denon 4700 now and I am trying out Audyssey. I have few questions. When setting reference, (I already changed to this setting) I keep hearing 2 different numbers thrown around in my research. Some say to set your reference at 75db, and others say 85db. I realize that Audyssey is supposed to set it for reference during the auto calibration, but when I used my phones app to check the levels from the sweet spot at seated ear height after calibration was done, they were between 68 and 71 db. I don’t have an actual SPL meter but i do have one that’s calibrated that will arrive in a week.

My first question is what db should I set all my loudspeakers for when at reference? If 85, that means I need to really increase the db’s on all the loud speakers quite a bit.

Second question, when I started Audyssey, I had the gain set at 12 o’clock on my sub, audyssey said it was too high and had me lower it until it turned green on the screen. This brought the subs dial to about 9 o’clock. Then I was able to run the setup. Now my sub seems weak sounding. Am I ok to run the calibration with my gain at 12 o’clock when audyssey is saying not to? (I’ll attach pic of my measurements after running Audyssey, and these numbers are showing 68-71 db on my spl phone app)

Third question, what db should the sub be set too for reference? The same as the loudspeakers? (75, 85?) I did read that some say to run the sub +10 db hotter than the loudspeakers.
I wouldn’t trust a phone app other than to be consistent from speaker to speaker. Make sure it’s “c” weighted, slow response. Otherwise wait for the new one.
As mentioned, setting the levels at 75/85 is really the same thing. When the MV is set to -0 during the test tone set levels to 75. 85db used to be the level used when it was all manual, but people felt it was too loud. So RC programs play the test tones at 75db and then compensate during playback. The only thing I would do is bump the subwoofer trim to taste. Usually 3-6db(sometimes more, but imo that can end up obnoxious). And yes, use the 9 o’clock ish position. When the calibration sets the sub around -10, you then have room to bump it up without going into the + range, which can add distortion into the signal. If you force a calibration with it higher(like the 12:00 position, the AVR can bottom out the trim trying to get it into range, and you won’t know where the subwoofer trim is actually at relatively speaking in the whole of the system. Guess that was for question two lol.
First question, and third question,set speakers to 75
Set sub between 75 and 80. Then try out some movies and adjust to taste.
 
R

Rylan

Audioholic
I wouldn’t trust a phone app other than to be consistent from speaker to speaker. Make sure it’s “c” weighted, slow response. Otherwise wait for the new one.
As mentioned, setting the levels at 75/85 is really the same thing. When the MV is set to -0 during the test tone set levels to 75. 85db used to be the level used when it was all manual, but people felt it was too loud. So RC programs play the test tones at 75db and then compensate during playback. The only thing I would do is bump the subwoofer trim to taste. Usually 3-6db(sometimes more, but imo that can end up obnoxious). And yes, use the 9 o’clock ish position. When the calibration sets the sub around -10, you then have room to bump it up without going into the + range, which can add distortion into the signal. If you force a calibration with it higher(like the 12:00 position, the AVR can bottom out the trim trying to get it into range, and you won’t know where the subwoofer trim is actually at relatively speaking in the whole of the system. Guess that was for question two lol.
First question, and third question,set speakers to 75
Set sub between 75 and 80. Then try out some movies and adjust to taste.
Ok, that’s really helpful. I’ll do that. I did a second calibration with a mid size pattern for calibration (see attachment) and on the second calibration I did use the 12 o’clock position, and the bass calibrated at -11.5. So regarding what you mentioned about being close to -10, what do you think about -11.5 at 12 o’clock? I also attached all my speakers levels.

What is “Reference Level Offset”? Mine is currently set to 0dB. Should I change this number?

I do have Dynamic EQ on, but I left Dynamic Volume off. Audyssey LFC is off as well, not sure what that one is for.

lastly, I do not see any place that lets me change the Ohms. I don’t know what they are even set to. On the Onkyo I could change the Ohms from 4 to 8
 

Attachments

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Here's the explanation for Dynamic EQ and Reference Level Offset and the settings https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level

I'd leave it at -11.5....that's what I aim at for subs, too.

You don't really change the ohms, here's a good explanation https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/impedance-selector-switch-1
That setting is setup -

p.195 of the pdf manual explains LFC (basically limits some of the low frequencies so as not to bother others in the house/neighbors sort of thing).
 
R

Rylan

Audioholic
Here's the explanation for Dynamic EQ and Reference Level Offset and the settings https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level

I'd leave it at -11.5....that's what I aim at for subs, too.

You don't really change the ohms, here's a good explanation https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/impedance-selector-switch-1
That setting is setup -

p.195 of the pdf manual explains LFC (basically limits some of the low frequencies so as not to bother others in the house/neighbors sort of thing).
The first link you sent on Dynamic EQ and reference level offset was really good. When running Audyssey setup, I’m not actually changing my volume knob to “0” am I for it to calibrate during the test tones? I’m assuming that as long as I have the “reference” scale selected under volume, that the test tones are automatically calibrating the setup to reference. Even when I went to the audyssey setup menu, my volume control doesn’t work anyways. But I’m just making certain I’m not suppose to manually make the test tones play at “0” dB?

With changing the Reference Level Offset, and I want to listen to music but have it 10dB offset, is the only way to do this is to go Audyssey under the audio menu and change it there? Or is there a way to preset the reference for just music someplace as a stored memory?
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Yes. When doing the auto cal, it is setting everything to reference. The only time you’d adjust the MV is when doing tones manually. If you’re doing that to double checK, or changing to taste. You would then set it to 0 and adjust speaker trims to hit 75db, or whatever your target is.
Deq is interesting. I personally don’t use it, or like it. I have a house curve I use with my minidsp, and deq raises the surround, and rear height/top levels too. HATE IT! However, our friend lovingthehd does use it, and has played with the RLO. Imo, do whatever sounds best for you. This is what deq “looks” like.

The RLO just changes the MV level at which deq kicks in, and you can see how raising the MV towards-0 lessens it’s effect.
As for sub trim at 11.5. I think that’s fine. That means you could raise it up to -7 or -8.(this would be common) The problem some subs have is when the trim is too low, the auto on function can be sketchy. Also, I’ve seen that being that low may not allow the subs amps to operate at full potential. It’s a gain structure thing, and I’ve never tested the theory. Only parroting what I’ve seen.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Ok, that’s really helpful. I’ll do that. I did a second calibration with a mid size pattern for calibration (see attachment) and on the second calibration I did use the 12 o’clock position, and the bass calibrated at -11.5. So regarding what you mentioned about being close to -10, what do you think about -11.5 at 12 o’clock? I also attached all my speakers levels.

What is “Reference Level Offset”? Mine is currently set to 0dB. Should I change this number?

I do have Dynamic EQ on, but I left Dynamic Volume off. Audyssey LFC is off as well, not sure what that one is for.

lastly, I do not see any place that lets me change the Ohms. I don’t know what they are even set to. On the Onkyo I could change the Ohms from 4 to 8
I hope you are using the $20 app to do the calibration because then you can try disabling MRC and see if you would like it better. You can also run calibration a few times in different ways (such as mic positions/patterns) and store them for comparison and determine which way sounds best to you.

With the app you can shape the bass curve to give you more deep bass while leaving the higher frequency range neutral. As William suggested, if you don't use the app, then even just by bumping up the subwoofer trim level from -11.5 to -8 or even -6, you will likely get the bass you missed.

Based on the results, it does look like your sub volume position is about right, a lot of people find the 9 to 10 O'clock position is good even if Audyssey shows it in the red zone.

Until you gain more experience, you should just leave the levels (except bumping up the sub) and distance alone for now. Audyssey and the mic are not perfect but in my experience it can do a good enough job. Some people will naturally think that they did a better job doing it manually, but in many cases, that's just what they like to believe.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Yes. Forgot about the app that peng mentioned. Imo it’s 20 bucks well spent. If for no other reason than removing MRC lol. Actually it’s very useful and you can create custom curves for best performance. A general understanding of FR and Eq in general is very helpful.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
The first link you sent on Dynamic EQ and reference level offset was really good. When running Audyssey setup, I’m not actually changing my volume knob to “0” am I for it to calibrate during the test tones? I’m assuming that as long as I have the “reference” scale selected under volume, that the test tones are automatically calibrating the setup to reference. Even when I went to the audyssey setup menu, my volume control doesn’t work anyways. But I’m just making certain I’m not suppose to manually make the test tones play at “0” dB?

With changing the Reference Level Offset, and I want to listen to music but have it 10dB offset, is the only way to do this is to go Audyssey under the audio menu and change it there? Or is there a way to preset the reference for just music someplace as a stored memory?
Too bad Audyssey has taken down a lot of the zendesk postings....some are still there, tho.

When running Audyssey it doesn't matter what your volume is, it only matters if you're doing levels manually. The avr does automatically save some things by input, and within the input by the audio's codec but it doesn't particularly know if a stereo signal is music or not, tho. Check the quick select plus settings in the manual, that might be a way to go.
 
R

Rylan

Audioholic
Everyones input is great. You continue to really help me navigate through this. I’ll pick up that app today. Are there any restrictions to using the app on more than one device? I was going to purchase on my phone, but will I be able to use it on my iPad as well?

Also, under Input assign, each mode is set to Auto, should I change them to HDMI or make any other changes? Or leave them alone? (See attachment)
 

Attachments

-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic Field Marshall
Everyones input is great. You continue to really help me navigate through this. I’ll pick up that app today. Are there any restrictions to using the app on more than one device? I was going to purchase on my phone, but will I be able to use it on my iPad as well?

Also, under Input assign, each mode is set to Auto, should I change them to HDMI or make any other changes? Or leave them alone? (See attachment)
Most folks use the App on their iPad if they've got one as an iPhone Screen is too small to easily manipulate the curves.

As for input assign, I'd leave them alone until you find a need to reassign them. (Most folks just go with the defaults.)

Enjoy your new system!
 
R

Rylan

Audioholic
Here's the explanation for Dynamic EQ and Reference Level Offset and the settings https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level

I'd leave it at -11.5....that's what I aim at for subs, too.

You don't really change the ohms, here's a good explanation https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/impedance-selector-switch-1
That setting is setup -

p.195 of the pdf manual explains LFC (basically limits some of the low frequencies so as not to bother others in the house/neighbors sort of thing).
i found out how to change or at least check the impedance on the 4700. You have to do it from the AVR (not the remote). If you hold down the status button and the Zone 3 source button for 3 seconds, it turns on Video Format mode, then you use the down arrow 3 times and it will bring you to Impedance. Denon’s default is set for 8 ohms. I was able to toggle to either 4 or 6 if I wanted to change it. My speakers are set for 8 ohms so i will keep the Impedance at 8 ohms
 
R

Rylan

Audioholic
Most folks use the App on their iPad if they've got one as an iPhone Screen is too small to easily manipulate the curves.

As for input assign, I'd leave them alone until you find a need to reassign them. (Most folks just go with the defaults.)

Enjoy your new system!
Thank you Jim! Good suggestions
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
i found out how to change or at least check the impedance on the 4700. You have to do it from the AVR (not the remote). If you hold down the status button and the Zone 3 source button for 3 seconds, it turns on Video Format mode, then you use the down arrow 3 times and it will bring you to Impedance. Denon’s default is set for 8 ohms. I was able to toggle to either 4 or 6 if I wanted to change it. My speakers are set for 8 ohms so i will keep the Impedance at 8 ohms
Did you read the article on use of that switch ? Even with 4 ohm speakers it is recommended to leave it at 8 ohm setting....4 ohm setting merely allows a particular certification in testing, but limits power in use.....
 
R

Rylan

Audioholic
Did you read the article on use of that switch ? Even with 4 ohm speakers it is recommended to leave it at 8 ohm setting....4 ohm setting merely allows a particular certification in testing, but limits power in use.....
I didn’t read it yet, still been working on some other calibrations, but I have the page open ready to look at it in a bit. Just wanted to share that there was a way to see setting. Thanks again!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I didn’t read it yet, still been working on some other calibrations, but I have the page open ready to look at it in a bit. Just wanted to share that there was a way to see setting. Thanks again!
A quick look in the manual...it's on page 40 :)
 
R

Rylan

Audioholic
I adjusted the sub through the AVR and brought it up from -11.5 to -6, then tried -4 and then tried 0. Zero sounds really good. I like 0 the best as I’m getting more bass. Are there any problems with moving it that far to 0? Gain on sub is still 12 o’clock
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
As long as you don't run out of sub/sub amp, if you want 11.5 dB hotter, go for it. More than I'd want.....
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
That’s pretty hot for a sub imo, but if it’s working go for it. I can’t seem to think of it. What is this sub?
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top