Electric Vehicles?

[panteragstk]

Oh, I get it. When OBD-II can only diagnose down to a certain point, leaving several different possible faults, it's frustrating and possibly quite spendy. I think the point of this article is that EV's are compounding the issue.

Yep. There are a LOT of things that are "dealer only" repairs. Mom and pop mechanic shops still have plenty to do, but the more manufacturers lean toward a dealer only fix, we as consumers are gong to get screwed.

They're already trying to make certain functions subscription based. The funny thing about that is hackers will start selling car computer lockpicks to let you have certain functionality that you normally wouldn't have access to.

It'll be interesting to see how all of this goes. I sure won't be one of the testers of this stuff though.

 

[j_garcia]

yes, your tuners will now be IT people. Actual hackers, not hardware hackers. It will be a whole new sub-industry. Hyper-milers, top speeders, and the options hackers ESPECIALLY if they start trying to charge people for features that are already on the car that they bought.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Yep. There are a LOT of things that are "dealer only" repairs. Mom and pop mechanic shops still have plenty to do, but the more manufacturers lean toward a dealer only fix, we as consumers are gong to get screwed.

They're already trying to make certain functions subscription based. The funny thing about that is hackers will start selling car computer lockpicks to let you have certain functionality that you normally wouldn't have access to.

It'll be interesting to see how all of this goes. I sure won't be one of the testers of this stuff though.

BMW's infamous subscription to activate heated seats comes to mind.

 

[highfigh]

Oh, I get it. When OBD-II can only diagnose down to a certain point, leaving several different possible faults, it's frustrating and possibly quite spendy. I think the point of this article is that EV's are compounding the issue.

You're referring to an OBDII scanner, right? No dealer should be using one of those- all diagnostics should be done with SnapOn, Sun or laptop with software- if they're using the laptop, they would be using Rinda or some other software that allows recalibration 'on the fly' with some vehicles. I have a scanner and it lets me see a lot, but it doesn't let me do as much as the SnapOn. OTOH, it was $65, so I don't expect it to do everything.

I know some cars/trucks can receive a different 'chip', but the marine have sealed ECM and diagnostics & recal are done with the laptop connected- first step after connection: check for codes and if possible, run the boat on the water to acquire data, shut off the engine/turn key to ON, load and save the new config file, close and run the engine with the boat on the water, checking performance. Takes less than five minutes.

EVs are compounding the issue, but another problem is the lack of people who want to be mechanics. The high school I attended eliminated its shop department in the '80s and I think that was a gigantic mistake, but if nobody wants to take the classes, what's the point? Now, they want to improve the department in whatever form it has taken, but a lot of the emphasis has to do with Robotics- they call it the STEM Department. The local Technical College has just about all of the equipment and facilities that would be needed to teach people what we had when I was in high school, but that leaves students 1-4 years behind where we were- after HS, someone who had taken enough shop classes could have walked into a good job without needing to be trained from the ground up and now, that's rare although a high school not far from here has an auto repair program that competes against other schools and is a perennial winner. We need more of that but I seriously doubt my high school has as many gearheads as we did when I was there and we had real 'greasers'.

 

[Swerd]

It [problems in electronic controls vs. mechanical controls] is true of all modern cars, electric or not. While there are many mechanics, there are not so many that can troubleshoot software/electronic issues.

These problems have been around in cars for at least the last 2 decades, maybe longer. As electronic digital controls began to replace mechanical controls, detecting their faults and repairing them became difficult – especially difficult for people used to the old mechanical problems, but baffled by the new digital problems.

Similar problems have occurred in all equipment as manufacturers shifted from mechanical to electronic digital controlled operations. The first generation digital controls often had to be scrapped because they were so poorly implemented. People mistakenly came to the conclusion that digital electronic controls were always worse than mechanical analog controls. Generally, increases in chip processing speed and capability, allowed for better working electronic digital control systems. This process has been slower than we've expected.

We're still going through this with digital TVs and home theater receivers. I had to scrap a 2007 vintage AVR even though its analog electronic functions were all good. But its software had gone bad, and the manufacturer had gone out of business, turning it into a very heavy piece of non-functioning gear. I had to buy a new AVR and haul the old one off to recycle it's parts.

We quickly got used to the obvious advantages of newer digital gear. None of us complain that digital high definition TV has worse picture quality than the old low resolution analog TV. And those of us who know better (unfortunately not all of us) don't complain that digital audio sounds worse than analog. The same process is going on with cars.

 

[panteragstk]

You're referring to an OBDII scanner, right? No dealer should be using one of those- all diagnostics should be done with SnapOn, Sun or laptop with software- if they're using the laptop, they would be using Rinda or some other software that allows recalibration 'on the fly' with some vehicles. I have a scanner and it lets me see a lot, but it doesn't let me do as much as the SnapOn. OTOH, it was $65, so I don't expect it to do everything.

I know some cars/trucks can receive a different 'chip', but the marine have sealed ECM and diagnostics & recal are done with the laptop connected- first step after connection: check for codes and if possible, run the boat on the water to acquire data, shut off the engine/turn key to ON, load and save the new config file, close and run the engine with the boat on the water, checking performance. Takes less than five minutes.

EVs are compounding the issue, but another problem is the lack of people who want to be mechanics. The high school I attended eliminated its shop department in the '80s and I think that was a gigantic mistake, but if nobody wants to take the classes, what's the point? Now, they want to improve the department in whatever form it has taken, but a lot of the emphasis has to do with Robotics- they call it the STEM Department. The local Technical College has just about all of the equipment and facilities that would be needed to teach people what we had when I was in high school, but that leaves students 1-4 years behind where we were- after HS, someone who had taken enough shop classes could have walked into a good job without needing to be trained from the ground up and now, that's rare although a high school not far from here has an auto repair program that competes against other schools and is a perennial winner. We need more of that but I seriously doubt my high school has as many gearheads as we did when I was there and we had real 'greasers'.

I can do a lot of things with my phone, ODBII to USB cable, and AlphaODB. It lets me program a LOT of aspects of Chrysler vehicles. I'm still learning it, but it's pretty cool.

However, it's vastly different than what was used to re-program my ECM (EFI Live) for more HP. I paid someone to do this for me though as I'm out of my element there.

 

[Mikado463]

Early model 5th Gen Corvettes ('97-00) have EBCM (electronic brake control modules) that cannot be rebuilt and to make matters worse where did those brainiac engineers locate them, yeah that's right, underneath the battery !

 

[highfigh]

I can do a lot of things with my phone, ODBII to USB cable, and AlphaODB. It lets me program a LOT of aspects of Chrysler vehicles. I'm still learning it, but it's pretty cool.

However, it's vastly different than what was used to re-program my ECM (EFI Live) for more HP. I paid someone to do this for me though as I'm out of my element there.

Having seen the dyno rooms at the place where we trained for Mastercraft boats, I wouldn't try to add power by changing many of the parameters in the program because some can cause the engine to burn too lean and that definitely shortens engine life. OTOH, the software they use has flags when parameters are outside of a safe window, plus the fact that these guys are involved with the actual development of the tuning, so they have a much better idea of what will work, what won't. I have also seen videos of engines on a dyno before & after tuning tweaks were loaded and sometimes, it was really ugly. "Engine go boom!" isn't uncommon. However, changes in tuning matter more when the vehicle is run hard, put away wet, rather than everyday driving.

 

[panteragstk]

Having seen the dyno rooms at the place where we trained for Mastercraft boats, I wouldn't try to add power by changing many of the parameters in the program because some can cause the engine to burn too lean and that definitely shortens engine life. OTOH, the software they use has flags when parameters are outside of a safe window, plus the fact that these guys are involved with the actual development of the tuning, so they have a much better idea of what will work, what won't. I have also seen videos of engines on a dyno before & after tuning tweaks were loaded and sometimes, it was really ugly. "Engine go boom!" isn't uncommon. However, changes in tuning matter more when the vehicle is run hard, put away wet, rather than everyday driving.

Well, this is a pretty common thing in the diesel world. I've had the tunes for a few years with zero issues. All it takes is someone that knows what they're doing. Any time you add a power adder you have to modify the ECM to tell it to give proper fuel, timing, etc. Granted, there's a lot left on the table with a stock motor like mine too. It's much different in the gas world where most motors are pretty much running the best they can from the factory. Sure, you can change out pullies on supercharged motors with little modification, but you're asking for trouble if that's the only thing you do.

 

[NINaudio]

Well, this is a pretty common thing in the diesel world. I've had the tunes for a few years with zero issues. All it takes is someone that knows what they're doing. Any time you add a power adder you have to modify the ECM to tell it to give proper fuel, timing, etc. Granted, there's a lot left on the table with a stock motor like mine too. It's much different in the gas world where most motors are pretty much running the best they can from the factory. Sure, you can change out pullies on supercharged motors with little modification, but you're asking for trouble if that's the only thing you do.

Getting my turbo charged gas engine tuned was a night and day difference in power. It took me from ~300hp/300 ft-lbs at the wheels to 440hp/500 ft-lbs at the wheels.

 

[cpp]

Some food for thought.
Electric vehicle repairs down the road could be costly and difficult to find, says mechanic | CBC Radio

When we had our model S, the warranty takes care of a lot of the worry. NO never paid a cent for any service issues. Our issue, it was our only car, of course I had a F150 3.5 twin turbo 2 w drive Lariat with a 29 gal tank and could go around 620 miles without fill up but during traveling the lack of a charging infrastructure ( and those that actually worked) just killed it for the wife and she sold it and got another Lexus ES.

" 8 years or 150,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period. 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period ".

 

[highfigh]

Well, this is a pretty common thing in the diesel world. I've had the tunes for a few years with zero issues. All it takes is someone that knows what they're doing. Any time you add a power adder you have to modify the ECM to tell it to give proper fuel, timing, etc. Granted, there's a lot left on the table with a stock motor like mine too. It's much different in the gas world where most motors are pretty much running the best they can from the factory. Sure, you can change out pullies on supercharged motors with little modification, but you're asking for trouble if that's the only thing you do.

I would hope the software has limits to the changes, to prevent damage, but I have heard of people whose engines broke afterward. OTOH, many of them had treated the vehicle like it was a farm animal.

Right- under-pullying is an old way to reduce the load or, in the case of adding accessories that didn't operate as well when idle speed reduced alternator output (like big car stereo systems), but it also adds a little bit of power. In an engine with solid lifters, a carb, points ignition, emission-meeting intake manifold & exhaust, changing the cam/lifters/rocker arms/intake manifold/replace carb with injection, a sleepy carbureted 5.7L engine can be made to perform pretty well- I watched a video of a shop that upgraded a 3.0L 'Iron Duke' to more than double the HP and torque of the OEM version but I also know someone with a fairly new Ford F-150 that has some mods and, while I haven't been in it, the guy says it really made a big 'seat of the pants' difference, which is pretty good for an engine with less than 3 liter displacement.

The problem, as I see it, is people wanting a performance vehicle but buying something 'off the shelf'- automakers aren't in business to sell performance, they're required to make their products meet environmental standards. They may offer higher performance as an option, but peoples' expectations need to be managed better. Mods to a new vehicle voids the warranty- IMO, it makes sense to buy something older and mod the hell out of it, but do it right by dyno-ing the engine and making sure it will be reliable under most conditions. Street racing isn't one of those conditions.

 

[Mikado463]

is the Biden Energy policy at least partly to blame ?

Stellantis to indefinitely idle Illinois plant, cites EV costs

Chrysler parent Stellantis on Friday said it will indefinitely halt operations at an assembly plant in Illinois in February, citing the rising costs of electric vehicle production.

www.reuters.com

 

[highfigh]

is the Biden Energy policy at least partly to blame ?

Stellantis to indefinitely idle Illinois plant, cites EV costs

Chrysler parent Stellantis on Friday said it will indefinitely halt operations at an assembly plant in Illinois in February, citing the rising costs of electric vehicle production.

www.reuters.com

Musk is looking for ways to ramp up Tesla production and the video I watched showed that he's looking at GM plants that are or will be closed- it makes sense because the construction costs will be less than starting from scratch.

 

[Mikado463]

I remember years ago when driving by that Belvedere plant on the way up to Janesville and Monroe, I think it was a K car plant back in the day

 

[highfigh]

I remember years ago when driving by that Belvedere plant on the way up to Janesville and Monroe, I think it was a K car plant back in the day

I installed a stereo in a new Plymouth Horizon and there wasn't enough paint overspray to cover the bare metal in the defroster vent slots. No primer, either.

 

[j_garcia]

Stellantis just brought back the 500e to the US because it had been selling well in Europe for them. I guess they aren't actually doing well overall.

Looks like we're getting closer to the Ioniq 5N also

2023 Hyundai Ioniq 5 N Spied With Less Camouflage Around The Nurburgring

The final power numbers are not known at the moment, though company executives hinted the peak output will be somewhere between 580 hp and 620 hp.

www.motor1.com

 

[GO-NAD!]

Tesla stock has dropped 50% over the past year.
Brutal December for Tesla stock continues (msn.com)

 

[j_garcia]

Tesla stock has dropped 50% over the past year.
Brutal December for Tesla stock continues (msn.com)

Could be due to Musk himself. Public opinion of them has dropped as well.

Tesla approval ratings drop amid Twitter takeover, survey finds

Tesla’s favorability dropped among consumers in November

www.deseret.com

 

[cpp]

Could be due to Musk himself. Public opinion of them has dropped as well.

Tesla approval ratings drop amid Twitter takeover, survey finds

Tesla’s favorability dropped among consumers in November

www.deseret.com

Agree. He was doing ok with Tesla and of course his Space X success. But his Twitter journey is changing public opinion each and every day. BUt his company and he can do what he wants, even if people agree or disagree.