Dirac Live RC Suite Stereo PC version

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I tried it with one Atmos movie, when I set the player to bitstream via HDMI, it worked perfectly except it downmixed to Stereo and PCM. Apparently, and unfortunately, it cannot do what you (and me too...) want it to do. So it is PCM only, not really a problem except then you won't get Atmos, or DTS:X, X Pro I would assume. For the exact reasons and future development if there is any chance, I would have to defer it to @flak3 again.

Still, I highly recommend you try it for two channel music. The ease of creating multiple target curves and switching between the curves on the fly alone is worth the cost. Of course that is not the case for people who want to run auto RC once and then leave it alone.

Bummer about the no-Bitstream of the Dirac output.

As for Dirac or any other EQ, I don't see the need for any of them unless you have a dip in the bass.

If you have a "normal" Room Response (no bass dips), I prefer to leave it alone. Certainly not gonna spend $300-$400 just to make it a little FLATTER, right @Pogre ?

 

[PENG]

Bummer about the no-Bitstream of the Dirac output.

In my opinion, a real HTPC should not need an AVR/AVP to do decoding either. It should include a HDMI interface to a multichannel preamp or have it build in as well. Then it will be a single unit that serves as a PC as well as an AVP.

As for Dirac or any other EQ, I don't see the need for any of them unless you have a dip in the bass.

I am not suggesting you use it for your HT setup, just the stereo 2 channel setup. Also, I gathered that you don't mind a lot of room gains, may be, just maybe and I am guessing.. even to the point of boomy bass. Your FR curve looks good, but to me, what you have between 10 - 40 Hz and 40 - 100 Hz should swap place, then it would be more like the Harman curve. But if you prefer what you have now then okay you don't need any auto RC software. On the other hand, I thought manual PEQ won't do much if anything in the time domain so while you flattened the curve, it may not sound good or just not the best you could have done, if it resulted in ringing and other issues that you may not notice without some good AB comparisons.

If you have a "normal" Room Response (no bass dips), I prefer to leave it alone. Certainly not gonna spend $300-$400 just to make it a little FLATTER, right @Pogre ?

Right but it is not just about a little flatter response.

It seems to me software such as Trinnov, Dirac, Auydyssey are more like RC (room correction) whereas PEQ is for REQ (room equalization). Not sure about the latest YPAO and Anthem ARC versions, but their previous versions seem to be more for REQ than RC.

Room EQ vs Room Correction: What's The Difference & Why Does It Matter? - CEPRO

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

what you have between 10 - 40 Hz and 40 - 100 Hz should swap place

Oh, no, I intentionally boost the 40-100Hz region. The only region I EQ is the 40-100Hz. I did not EQ below-40Hz or above-100Hz.

My reason: my audio spectrum is about 30Hz-15kHz. I see no point boosting the 10-30Hz region since I can’t hear much there. This would unnecessarily stress my subwoofers.

I don't want the Harman, Dirac, Trinnov, ARC curve.

I want MY Curve.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In my opinion, a real HTPC should not need an AVR/AVP to do decoding either. It should include a HDMI interface to a multichannel preamp or have it build in as well. Then it will be a single unit that serves as a PC as well as an AVP.

I guess the HTPC could do DIRAC-EQ, then Decode ATMOS, then output to the Amplifiers with Volume/Gain Control.

The HTPC would control the Volume digitally, but the Amplifier's analog gain/volune would be the "Master".

 

[PENG]

I guess the HTPC could do DIRAC-EQ, then Decode ATMOS, then output to the Amplifiers with Volume/Gain Control.

The HTPC would control the Volume digitally, but the Amplifier's analog gain/volune would be the "Master".

Absolutely! But will need further downsizing in the PC world and quieter fans, thought it can be placed further away, like in the next room with a super shielded HDMI cable for long distance. And most importantly, don't tell TLSGuy who probably won't let you jam more things in one box, amps or no amps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Absolutely! But will need further downsizing in the PC world and quieter fans, thought it can be placed further away, like in the next room with a super shielded HDMI cable for long distance. And most importantly, don't tell TLSGuy who probably won't let you jam more things in one box, amps or no amps.

Have you seen my HTPC’s? Each of my 3 HTPC’s (in equipment room) have rooms for 12 standard old HDD‘s and the kitchen sink!

I think I have one of the BIGGEST SIZE Graphics cards available, and the card looks SMALL inside my PC Case - Antec Twelve Hundred.

But for a guy who is always against AVR and not wanting to stuff amps inside the AVR, he is 100% for wanting to stuff Amps and Processors and EQ INSIDE speakers! Double standard?

Why is it okay to stuff amps/processor/EQ inside 200 lbs speakers, but it’s terrible to stuff amps inside an AVR?

 

[PENG]

Have you seen my HTPC’s? Each of my 3 HTPC’s (in equipment room) have rooms for 12 standard old HDD‘s and the kitchen sink!

I think I have one of the BIGGEST SIZE Graphics cards available, and the card looks SMALL inside my PC Case - Antec Twelve Hundred.

But for a guy who is always against AVR and not wanting to stuff amps inside the AVR, he is 100% for wanting to stuff Amps and Processors and EQ INSIDE speakers! Double standard?

Why is it okay to stuff amps/processor/EQ inside 200 lbs speakers, but it’s terrible to stuff amps inside an AVR?

Now I understand why you seem keen on HTPC, with monsters like those you probably can run everything from them except power amps. Just need to figure out a way to run long interconnects.

One option is to put the preamp close to the server (if a jam in the same box one if not available), there should be no concerns with long XLR cables to the power amp in the HT room.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Now I understand why you seem keen on HTPC, with monsters like those you probably can run everything from them except power amps. Just need to figure out a way to run long interconnects.

One option is to put the preamp close to the server (if a jam in the same box one if not available), there should be no concerns with long XLR cables to the power amp in the HT room.

All my equipment (AVP, Amps, HTPC/Servers) are NEXT to each other in the same equipment room (8’ x 12’ x 10’ ceiling).

 

[PENG]

All my equipment (AVP, Amps, HTPC/Servers) are NEXT to each other in the same equipment room (8’ x 12’ x 10’ ceiling).

I can see why you like XLRs so much as thought it is a necessity lol..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I can see why you like XLRs so much as thought it is a necessity lol..

Nope, XLR not necessary, just COOL.

 

[PENG]

Nope, XLR not necessary, just COOL.

Okay, I forgot your have everything in the equipment room, so no long interconnects, just long speaker cables?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Okay, I forgot your have everything in the equipment room, so no long interconnects, just long speaker cables?

Correct. Long speaker cables and long HDMI cables (Projectors).

 

[PENG]

Correct. Long speaker cables and long HDMI cables (Projectors).

Can you please recommend a good long HDMI cable for me to run from my desktop to my Denon AVR? I think I need a 25 to 30 feet one, preferably one that can flex more than the regular ones. I had a long one from Amazon before, probably from 10 years ago. I works but with signal degradation, but still suitable for running REW when I want to do multichannel sweeps. When I am ready to compare DL with Audyssey in 7.1 I would need a longer one so I can use the better sound card of the desktop.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Can you please recommend a good long HDMI cable for me to run from my desktop to my Denon AVR? I think I need a 25 to 30 feet one, preferably one that can flex more than the regular ones. I had a long one from Amazon before, probably from 10 years ago. I works but with signal degradation, but still suitable for running REW when I want to do multichannel sweeps. When I am ready to compare DL with Audyssey in 7.1 I would need a longer one so I can use the better sound card of the desktop.

These are the two 50FT HDMI cable I bought from Amazon. These 2 cables went inside the wall/attic.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008U7SLJW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Those are for in-wall.

I tried the same brand to connect from the wall to the AVP/PJ, but they didn’t work.

So I used these HDMI cables to connect from the wall to the Yamaha AVP and Epson Projectors:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0060B7NCG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

These are to connect between the cables:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00V7SFR8Y/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

HDMI is a PITA. Like it has a mind of its own. No telling which ones will work for your components.

 

[PENG]

Finally got it done, due to time restraint, it was done quickly so the mic positions for each run (XT32 and DL3) may not be exactly the same but likely within several inches.

Dirac Live, does appear to do consistently better in terms of impulse response. On the FR side, I would still say if one limits the RC/EQ range to 20-200 Hz, XT32 should be just as good, but DR seems to do a better job in the higher frequency range, such as from 2,000 to 20,000 Hz.

Below is link to minidsp's "Observe impulse responses":

Driver time alignment (minidsp.com)

 

[flak3]

Hi Peng,
this doesn't come unexpectedly as my understanding is that the Audyssey algorithm, in its various incarnations, doesn't correct the impulse response,
In an ideal world there should be nothing before the pulse, after, and especially below:

But does it matter?
It's more subtle than a change in the tonal balance and it affects the transients, here is a document that (partially) covers the subject:

In Music, Timing is Everything - Dirac

When you’re listening to music and something feels off, it can usually be attributed to at least one of two factors. Either something is out of key— for instance, an instrument isn’t tuned properly or a singer can’t sing. Or someone is missing a beat. If each musician in an orchestra were to...

www.dirac.com

.
When reading it, it's worth noting that the harmonics above the fundamental can contain more energy than the fundamental itself (depending on the instrument), and we want the harmonics to arrive at the same time as the fundamental.

Flavio

 

[PENG]

Hi Peng,
this doesn't come unexpectedly as my understanding is that the Audyssey algorithm, in its various incarnations, doesn't correct the impulse response,
In an ideal world there should be nothing before the pulse, after, and especially below:
View attachment 56139
But does it matter?
It's more subtle than a change in the tonal balance and it affects the transients, here is a document that (partially) covers the subject:

In Music, Timing is Everything - Dirac

When you’re listening to music and something feels off, it can usually be attributed to at least one of two factors. Either something is out of key— for instance, an instrument isn’t tuned properly or a singer can’t sing. Or someone is missing a beat. If each musician in an orchestra were to...

www.dirac.com

.
When reading it, it's worth noting that the harmonics above the fundamental can contain more energy than the fundamental itself (depending on the instrument)
View attachment 56140
Flavio

Thank you for the information to help understand the subject matter more.

For a subjective comparison between XT32 and DL3, it is very difficult to do in my HT system as the time delay in between switching back and forth is too long. That's the beauty of doing it on my desktop system first. On that system, to compare DL on and off, only takes one click on the button and the effect is practically felt instantaneously. Before that, I never knew my LS50 speakers can sound so much better, without doing anything else. It is quite amazing!

I would suggest RC non believers, such as ADTG, and TLSGuy, should try it on a desktop system just to be convinced. Unless they do have rooms that don't need to be corrected at all.

Now I do hope the rumor that D+M will start using DL on their next year models is more than just rumor. It would be nice if they at least do it for their higher models, or at least make it a pay upgrade/option.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thank you for the information to help understand the subject matter more.

For a subjective comparison between XT32 and DL3, it is very difficult to do in my HT system as the time delay in between switching back and forth is too long. That's the beauty of doing it on my desktop system first. On that system, to compare DL on and off, only takes one click on the button and the effect is practically felt instantaneously. Before that, I never knew my LS50 speakers can sound so much better, without doing anything else. It is quite amazing!

I would suggest RC non believers, such as ADTG, and TLSGuy, should try it on a desktop system just to be convinced. Unless they do have rooms that don't need to be corrected at all.

Now I do hope the rumor that D+M will start using DL on their next year models is more than just rumor. It would be nice if they at least do it for their higher models, or at least make it a pay upgrade/option.

Convinced with the visual effects (REW graphs) or convinced with the actual audible sound?

I’ve heard Dirac Live a few times already in other people’s systems. I didn’t hear any improvements, at least not enough to easily tell.

But I am all for DM and everyone going to Dirac Live. I just won’t use it. But it doesn’t hurt to just have it.

 

[PENG]

Convinced with the visual effects (REW graphs) or convinced with the actual audible sound?

I’ve heard Dirac Live a few times already in other people’s systems. I didn’t hear any improvements, at least not enough to easily tell.

But I am all for DM and everyone going to Dirac Live. I just won’t use it. But it doesn’t hurt to just have it.

If you can switch between RC, aka Room EQ on vs off, I am confident you will be convinced with the audible effects as well. Again, using it on the desktop system it is very easy to do. See that green toggle switch below, just click on it to turn DL on or off and the effects are virtually instantaneous.

You will hear the differences in clarity, bass will tighten, the room's echo effects that muddy the mid range would seem to have disappeared. Until I try it, I did not know the tiny LS50s can do such a good job without the subwoofer. I have since removed the sub.

On my HT system, the difference was much more subtle and difficult to quantify, because of the long switching time delay, ymmv..

So all I can say is, if you have a desktop system, or have a way to switch quickly give the free trial PC standalone version a try! You already have the Umik-1 so it will cost you nothing, just time. Based on your only Audyssey XT32 without the App and YPAO experience, I think you will be impressed with Dirac's interface too, it is very painless process.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you can switch between RC, aka Room EQ on vs off, I am confident you will be convinced with the audible effects as well.

You can easily toggle the Pure Direct Button while you have the Room Correction on. Pure Direct will turn off the RC. Turning off the Pure Direct will turn the RC back on.

It’s Extremely simple to test any Room Correction On vs Off.

I don’t know if it BIAS or not, but I was never able to tell if Dirac or any other RC I’ve listened to made an improvement in ACTUAL SOUND, although I can easily see the improvement in the graphs.

So yes, I have toggled between Pure Direct vs Room Correction.