How do I bi-amp Denon 4400h with external power amp?

[john20182050]

I advise completely against this. You need to use matching amps to do this successfully. Between the Parasound and the Denon you will have different things going on.

In absolute honesty, Passive Bi-Amping will not do anything that one single good Amp will do for you.

Run your Pre-out to the Amp, and connect your Amp to the Speakers in conventional manner. This is all you need to do. It is that simple.

I thought a matching amp is necessary. I tried what I said above and played a piece of music in medium volume, it sounded horrible, I could clearly hear the power is not matching between the bass drivers and tweeter. Dropped bi-amp and connected now normally without bi-amp.

 

[Pandaman617]

Using an AVR and external amp to passive bi-amp is akin to using cryogenically treated mains power cables going to the same outlet on the same 15/20a and expecting results. What I mean is that there’s plenty of guys out there who will sell you on the idea but it doesn’t mean it works.

 

[ryanosaur]

Okay, got it. Thanks. One question, what should I set the gain level in Parasound halo A21+ and run the denon Audyssey setup? The Parasound halo A21+ manual doesn't say what gain level I should set by default. Also, I'm not sure whether I should run Audyssey setup first without worrying about the gain level Parasound or should I first gain level in Parasound first and then run Audyssey setup?

Start with the gain at full and run Audyssey.
See where it sets your Speaker Trim.
If the Trims are maxed out, (-12 in Denon I think?) then adjust the gain down until you get in the -8 to -10 range. I don't have gain setting on my Amps, but if I did, that is how I would manage it.
Once set, don't play with the Gain knob, just like on Subs. Set it and forget it, only making adjustments through AVR Trim.

 

[Pandaman617]

Start with the gain at full and run Audyssey.
See where it sets your Speaker Trim.
If the Trims are maxed out, (-12 in Denon I think?) then adjust the gain down until you get in the -8 to -10 range. I don't have gain setting on my Amps, but if I did, that is how I would manage it.
Once set, don't play with the Gain knob, just like on Subs. Set it and forget it, only making adjustments through AVR Trim.

It is -12. And Ryan is correct you don’t want to be maxed out in the trim settings. On another note every time I see your user name I always picture a T-Rex on a skateboard. I’m weird. I know, but it always makes me smile

 

[ryanosaur]

It is -12. And Ryan is correct you don’t want to be maxed out in the trim settings. On another note every time I see your user name I always picture a T-Rex on a skateboard. I’m weird. I know, but it always makes me smile

From the old garbage pale kid cards.

I just like my Bari too much to change it out to Fryin Ryan.

 

[john20182050]

As to setting gain on external amp, can be a bit of an experiment but what are the output spec and input spec involved particularly? Don't make me look it up for you (and the avr pre-out spec could well be nominal rather than actual useful)

I'm not sure if I understand your question. I already tried searching in Denon manual available in the below URL. Denon manual doesn't say anything about gain or much about pre-out. Parasound A21+ doesn't have any info about gain level. My understanding is that Denon Audyssey setup will make adjustments based on the again set at the power amp. Is that correct? Maybe I don't understand what again exactly means or does. I thought if I increase the again in amp, it will pump more watts to that channel, Is that correct? If yes, Denon Audyssey setup will make adjustments accordingly, right?
'

Connecting speakers AVR-X4400H

manuals.denon.com

 

[john20182050]

Start with the gain at full and run Audyssey.
See where it sets your Speaker Trim.
If the Trims are maxed out, (-12 in Denon I think?) then adjust the gain down until you get in the -8 to -10 range. I don't have gain setting on my Amps, but if I did, that is how I would manage it.
Once set, don't play with the Gain knob, just like on Subs. Set it and forget it, only making adjustments through AVR Trim.

What do you mean by If the Trims are maxed out? Sorry, I novice here. Are you talking about dB level going above -12dB in Audyssey setup? Any link to a video explaining this?

 

[ryanosaur]

I'm not sure if I understand your question. I already tried searching in Denon manual available in the below URL. Denon manual doesn't say anything about gain or much about pre-out. Parasound A21+ doesn't have any info about gain level. My understanding is that Denon Audyssey setup will make adjustments based on the again set at the power amp. Is that correct? Maybe I don't understand what again exactly means or does. I thought if I increase the again in amp, it will pump more watts to that channel, Is that correct? If yes, Denon Audyssey setup will make adjustments accordingly, right?
'

Connecting speakers AVR-X4400H

manuals.denon.com

To answer your questions, you need to learn about Gain Structure.
I am not the person to try and teach what that means.

Yes, Aud will make some adjustments. You have to be responsible and double check what Aud does. Audyssey and denon will do their own things and it isn’t necessarily to the best.

As I suggested, run Aud and check all your Trims. You never want a Speaker or Sub at -12. That gain knob will allow you to correct it. Also, in real time, you can use an SPL meter and some pink noise to see what is happening ( you can do that through your AVR).

 

[john20182050]

What do you mean by Trims? I never heard about this adjusting Trims in speaker setup

 

[lovinthehd]

What do you mean by Trims? I never heard about this adjusting Trims in speaker setup

Trim refers to speaker levels in the avr for each particular channel/speaker (it varies a bit with avr and model)

 

[ryanosaur]

go to setup : Speakers: Audyssey Setup : Check Results : Levels

At least that is the path on my Marantz.

The Level Settings are referred to as Trim.

If you take the Manual Setup path, you can go in and adjust the trims after Audyssey.

But you want to see what Audyssey did. That is how you check.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Wes’ side bois!

 

[john20182050]

go to setup : Speakers: Audyssey Setup : Check Results : Levels

At least that is the path on my Marantz.

The Level Settings are referred to as Trim.

If you take the Manual Setup path, you can go in and adjust the trims after Audyssey.

But you want to see what Audyssey did. That is how you check.

Oh! okay. Now I understand what you mean. Thanks. Let me check that

 

[ryanosaur]

Wes’ side bois!

I just finished a 6'er of Total Domination.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I just finished a 6'er of Total Domination.

Not bad! I’m not counting, but going to finish strong with the King.

 

[john20182050]

go to setup : Speakers: Audyssey Setup : Check Results : Levels

At least that is the path on my Marantz.

The Level Settings are referred to as Trim.

If you take the Manual Setup path, you can go in and adjust the trims after Audyssey.

But you want to see what Audyssey did. That is how you check.

This is what I get with gain set to full and running Audyssey Setup. Is this? You said -12 but this is at +1.5, so do I need lower the gain?

 

[lovinthehd]

Those settings look fine. What I meant before was the input sensitivity voltage rating of the power amp as well as the pre-out output voltage levels of your avr, just a way to see if your gear can work together reasonably well. If anything it indicates you could use a bit more gain on your power amp, but it's at max now, but with those settings it will work just fine. Enjoy.

As to an article on gain structure, this is a good one but a bit involved https://www.hometheatershack.com/threads/gain-structure-for-home-theater-getting-the-most-from-pro-audio-equipment-in-your-system.35687/