Time to move to Separates

[PENG]

Once again, people are generalizing!

On the acoustic energy vs frequency discussion, It depends on the contents. Same for electrical energy vs.., just more variables. Violin solos are not going to have much much energy below 200 Hz, Jurassic Park movies will have tons below 100 Hz. Anyone can easily think of other examples to support their opinions one way or another, so everyone can be right depending on their picks.

And by the way, same thing about REQ vs No REQ, it depends on the rooms, and/or speakers:

I just REW'ed my two channel system yesterday after playing around with DL:

If ADTG's gigantic RBH and his room has a suck out like that, I bet he would be screaming ?!!!!#$^(*)!!.
Even if he has the top end Trinnov REQ (that he won't use), it wouldn't help him enough. But I guess he his room is excellent acoustically speaking, by design or by chance.

In my other system (LS50), you can see the opposite. REQ took most of the impressive bass due to room gain away, but no big suck outs so guys like ADTG (sorry, not picking on you, but need a good example) would be happy.

 

[Am_P]

 

[highfigh]

You missed FMW's point. You are mixing up acoustic power and spectral density with electrical power. Its more difficult for an amp to drive bass frequencies than its mid range to high frequencies. Measurements will easily confirm this. If one is loading an amp up with mid to high range signals which is most content in music, then freeing up the harder to drive bass frequencies frees up additional power to deal with the rest of the spectral content. Thats what FMW is saying.

The definition of slam needs to be made less nebular. Bass frequencies between 50 to 70 Hz is what gives that kick one feels in a movie. Even my little PSB Subsonic 5 with a 10" driver whose limit was 30 Hz gave me slam.

IIRC, descriptions for what is felt/experienced should be based on actual instruments and frequencies. A kick drum is felt and it may be tuned lower than 50Hz, but a snare drum is felt when tuned to a specific note, too. Even large cymbals produce sound in lower frequencies and it can be seen in video- the response isn't flat, but it can definitely be felt.

Is it 'thump', or 'slam'? To me, 'thump' is impact, from something that produces a narrow frequency range and 'slam' is broader low frequency range sound.

Small speakers that can do 50Hz won't make much physical impact unless they're in the right space )meaning 'small') and the listener is close to them. At a distance, the energy just isn't very strong.

 

[highfigh]

View attachment 54562

What are you going to do about your room modes? You can't EQ your way out of their effects.

 

[PENG]

What are you going to do about your room modes? You can't EQ your way out of their effects.

You can, to certain extent..

 

[highfigh]

You can, to certain extent..

I'm not referring to "EQ can have a small effect", I mean that EQ isn't a cure for room modes- anything attempted needs to be a solution, not a BandAid.

If the modes coincide at a spot where they're in phase, EQ is very limited in its effect especially if that two sides are the same length and the height is a multiple of that dimension. It can't change the room's dimensions and the EQ band would need to have a very high Q in order to be effective. When room modes are involved, the amount of energy needed for those frequencies to be too strong is much lower than the rest of the frequency range. OTOH, most rooms aren't sealed and they open into other spaces that can react to the energy in a way that softens the peak to some extent.

All rooms have standing waves, but treatment is the best choice- IF equalization is needed, a parametric equalizer is the best choice because Murphy's Law is in effect WRT the center frequencies of the sliders (physical or virtual).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Once again, people are generalizing!

On the acoustic energy vs frequency discussion, It depends on the contents. Same for electrical energy vs.., just more variables. Violin solos are not going to have much much energy below 200 Hz, Jurassic Park movies will have tons below 100 Hz. Anyone can easily think of other examples to support their opinions one way or another, so everyone can be right depending on their picks.

And by the way, same thing about REQ vs No REQ, it depends on the rooms, and/or speakers:

I just REW'ed my two channel system yesterday after playing around with DL:

If ADTG's gigantic RBH and his room has a suck out like that, I bet he would be screaming ?!!!!#$^(*)!!.
Even if he has the top end Trinnov REQ (that he won't use), it wouldn't help him enough. But I guess he his room is excellent acoustically speaking, by design or by chance.

View attachment 54557

In my other system (LS50), you can see the opposite. REQ took most of the impressive bass due to room gain away, but no big suck outs so guys like ADTG (sorry, not picking on you, but need a good example) would be happy.

View attachment 54561

It seems like Audyssey did a “better job” than Dirac in this measurement.

They both did a “better job” than no-EQ.

But I am not sure either one actually sounds any better than no-EQ.

 

[Pogre]

But I am not sure either one actually sounds any better than no-EQ.

Well, as you know... it depends. On a lot of different things.

You have lots to say about it but I've never seen any measurements of your room and system with or without room correction. I know you used to love Audyssey and DEQ, and constantly praised D&M, then you bought a Yamaha and all of a sudden Denon are inferior and Audyssey sucks in your opinion... no real explanation or description of what suddenly changed to make you do a complete 180. No measurements showing us any negative effect or a better response with it turned off.

You may just be lucky enough to have a room that doesn't need it, or possibly make things worse but until we see what you're considering "better" it's all just speculation and lots of bias. Maybe Audyssey mucks things up for you, or maybe you just prefer an inaccurate and uneven room curve. Research shows most folks prefer a linear response but not everyone is the same. If some eq takes a bad, uneven response and manages to make it more linear I think the odds are that most are gonna say it sounds better with EQ. Unless they're just being completely biased

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, as you know... it depends. On a lot of different things.

You have lots to say about it but I've never seen any measurements of your room and system with or without room correction. I know you used to love Audyssey and DEQ, and constantly praised D&M, then you bought a Yamaha and all of a sudden Denon are inferior and Audyssey sucks in your opinion... no real explanation or description of what suddenly changed to make you do a complete 180. No measurements showing us any negative effect or a better response with it turned off.

You may just be lucky enough to have a room that doesn't need it, or possibly make things worse but until we see what you're considering "better" it's all just speculation and lots of bias. Maybe Audyssey mucks things up for you, or maybe you just prefer an inaccurate and uneven room curve. Research shows most folks prefer a linear response but not everyone is the same. If some eq takes a bad, uneven response and manages to make it more linear I think the odds are that most are gonna say it sounds better with EQ. Unless they're just being completely biased

What are you talking about? When did I ever say Denon Sucked or is INFERIOR in Sound Quality?

I have always used Audyssey BYPASS L/R + DEQ when I owned Denon and think DEQ is awesome. I always Capitalized the BYPASS to emphasize that.

 

[Pogre]

What the heck are talking about? When did I ever say Denon Sucked or is INFERIOR in Sound Quality?

I have always used Audyssey BYPASS + DEQ when I owned Denon and think DEQ is awesome. I always Capitalized the BYPASS to emphasize that.

I might be confusing you with someone else, but I thought you turned pretty anti-Audyssey and we'd had some debates about it. I might be remembering wrong. I do remember you liking DEQ quite a bit tho.

Okay, I'll give you that you don't necessarily beat up on Denon but you are Yamaha's head cheerleader here! Granted they are a fine company, for the most part...

 

[Pogre]

When did I ever say Denon Sucked or is INFERIOR in Sound Quality?

And I didn't say you said anything about sound quality. Just that you aren't shy about letting folks know that Yamaha is a SUPERIOR company with a SUPERIOR warranty, and SUPERIOR customer support...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I might be confusing you with someone else, but I thought you turned pretty anti-Audyssey and we'd had some debates about it. I might be remembering wrong. I do remember you liking DEQ quite a bit tho.

Okay, I'll give you that you don't necessarily beat up on Denon but you are Yamaha's head cheerleader here! Granted they are a fine company, for the most part...

I have said time and time again that Audyssey BYPASS DEQ is awesome.

With Yamaha I was able to COPY that sound using PEQ for subs. The Yamaha doesn't sound better. But sounds as good.

There are 3 things I love about Denon - DEQ, Pure Direct Subwoofer Management and 0.0007% THD+N (X8500).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

And I didn't say you said anything about sound quality. Just that you aren't shy about letting folks know that Yamaha is a SUPERIOR company with a SUPERIOR warranty, and SUPERIOR customer support...

I think Yamaha has better warranty especially now with the 5YR. Also much better customer support for repairs. Hopefully Denon can get rid of Panurgy or significantly improve Panurgy to match. Yamaha also has much better WiFi Remote app and WiFi streaming app (MusicCast).

With the new Masimo owner, I can hope that they could improve in these areas.

Yamaha can improve on the THD+N to 0.0007%.
Also improve on the Pure Direct Bass Management.

For clients you care about auto room EQ, I hope Yamaha can improve here or just add Dirac or Audyssey.

 

[Replicant 7]

I might be confusing you with someone else, but I thought you turned pretty anti-Audyssey and we'd had some debates about it. I might be remembering wrong. I do remember you liking DEQ quite a bit tho.

Okay, I'll give you that you don't necessarily beat up on Denon but you are Yamaha's head cheerleader here! Granted they are a fine company, for the most part...

Doc, hates Adyssey! and AVR's! Any AVR! No exceptions!!

 

[Replicant 7]

Don't know if Yamaha is Superior, I wouldn't say, better than some but not superior. I'd would love to get my hands on that Rotel AV-R. But at 5600 bucks won't happen for me anyways. I'd say the amp section is Superior in that Rotel than anything that Denon, Yamaha or any other AVR on the market right now unless I miss one or two. I mean just look how delicious that thing is!!

 

[Replicant 7]

View attachment 54562

Hey! Where's the Tweeters!!

 

[Pogre]

Don't know if Yamaha is Superior, I wouldn't say, better than some but not superior. I'd would love to get my hands on that Rotel AV-R. But at 5600 bucks won't happen for me anyways. I'd say the amp section is Superior in that Rotel than anything that Denon, Yamaha or any other AVR on the market right now unless I miss one or two. I mean just look how delicious that thing is!!
View attachment 54610

It really depends what you're after. The only thing that makes me lean toward Denon or Marantz is MultEQ XT32, the independant sub outs and amazing control over your fr with the editor app. I could live without it tho, and I'd be perfectly happy with a Yamaha too. Well, unless I was doing a lot of gaming...

 

[lovinthehd]

What the heck are talking about? When did I ever say Denon Sucked or is INFERIOR in Sound Quality?

I have always used Audyssey BYPASS + DEQ when I owned Denon and think DEQ is awesome. I always Capitalized the BYPASS to emphasize that.

That's still using the eq on all but the L/R speakers, tho....and of course DEQ changes that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's still using the eq on all but the L/R speakers, tho....

Yes. Bypass L/R only, which are the salient speakers in the system. Also when I am listening to 2.1 music, it only has L/R anyway.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes. Bypass L/R only, which are the salient speakers in the system. Also when I am listening to 2.1 music, it only has L/R anyway.

True enough, altho as I just added, DEQ changes that somewhat. It's still EQ...